Since I recently posted David Keller’s comments about the struggles in the diocese of Upper South Carolina, I thought I would look at the numbers for that diocese. According to the national statistics site church membership in Upper South Carolina went from 25,569 in 1997 to 26,087 in 2007, a gain of 2.0%. During the same ten year span, however, average Sunday attendance went from 9,278 to 8,439, a decline of 9%.
Are numbers everything? I understand the reason for concern but I fail to see this as the sky falling. I once was told of a study that showed out integrated churches in the late 60s saw numbers of the congregations go to pot. Does that mean that it was the wrong thing to do?
Holding to the theory that numbers somehow indicate what’s right or true, then one would have to argue that the Mormons must have a hold on it above all other Christian sects since they boast a higher percentage of members worshipping each week than any (other?) Christian denomination.
As my friend Bp. Dan Herzog said “any farmer can tell you, if it ain’t growing, it’s dead.” If you think being small is something good, you haven’t read the Great Commission.
If you preach it they will come.
Underground [#3], sometimes if you preach it they run away, because they just don’t buy what you’re selling.
Yes, DC–and sometimes you get crucified.
#4 D. C., that’s exactly what we reasserters have been saying about all the reappraiser preaching we’ve heard, especially since GC03. Seems like some 30,000+ per year have run away from TEO’s ASA since then. Hoist by your own petard!
#1, Then, Mark, TEO shouldn’t mind releasing the number or $$$$s spent directly and indirectly on litigation against parishes that paid entirely for the construction and upkeep of their buildings. Yes, TEO does seem to place much importance on some numbers.
A whole lot of reappraiser preachin going on in Upper SC. It is not that the priestly class is afraid to preach it, they are incapable.
Sorry, I should have capitalized “It,” meaning the Word as given to us by the Apostles and Saints.
I find this inversion interesting. In mainline churches, there are more members than attenders. In evangelical churches, there are often more attenders than members. I would submit the latter is the way it is supposed to be in a healthy church.
Numbers are important in that half of the parishes only have 70 or fewer in attendance on an average Sunday. Now, there is no disagreeing that the trajectory of the attendance is down. There are 7,055 parishes in the TEClub. Thus, 3,527 have 70 or less attendees. Many of these parishes are simply hanging on and cannot afford the loss of a few. I easily see 2,000 parishes closing in the next 5 to 10 years. Closure after closure will take a significant toll on morale.
#9 Jim the Puritan,
I agree!
Romano Guardini suggested that in this Post-Christian era one would locate other Christians in small pockets; yet, the faith would run much deeper and richer.
I really do find the “less is more” argument unconvincing. It’s a bit like a business saying “We have a few more new customers, but lot fewer repeat customers.” The net result is a business in serious trouble.
It seems to me that if “membership” is increasing (slightly) and ASA is decreasing (significantly), someone isn’t purging their membership lists and moving inactive members to the inactive rolls.
“Oh, but we have a lot more elderly folks who are shut-ins and in nursing homes.” Great! But that too isn’t good news. Those folks will go to their greater reward in a few years and [b]then[/b] you will see not only ASA declining, but membership as well. Where are the young people with kids who are the future of the diocese? If they are on the golf course, playing soccer or just plain sleeping in, then you are doomed.
There is much talk in TEC about the baptismal covenant. But somehow that talk seems to jump over everything and focus only on the last two promises. TEC doesn’t seem to want to talk about the first promise.
[blockquote]Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers ?[/blockquote]
12. CBH wrote:
[blockquote]Romano Guardini suggested that in this Post-Christian era one would locate other Christians in small pockets; yet, the faith would run much deeper and richer.[/blockquote]
And your evidence that this is happening in TEC is?
At the very minimum, if you have a small cadre of “deeper and richer Christians in small pockets”, then your overall membership count should reflect that. In other words, if those few people who bother to participate “in the breaking of bread and in the prayers” are this “small cadre”, then “membership” should indicate that, not some bloated number that won’t be bothered.
But go ahead. Believe that “all is well” while TEC implodes, and more and more former “members” die or head for ACNA, Rome, Constantinople, the golf course, the soccer field, the pre-game tail-gate party, the backyard barbecue or just plain sleep in.
wow, there are far more people living in Upper SC (Columbia, Greenville, Spartanburg) than SC (Charleston), yet the latter has a far higher (and increasing) ASA. Now why is that?
[blockquote]wow, there are far more people living in Upper SC (Columbia, Greenville, Spartanburg) than SC (Charleston), yet the latter has a far higher (and increasing) ASA. Now why is that? [/blockquote]
Maybe all those Episcopalians in USC whose faith is shallow and poor are moving to SC.
All is well.
Ken, if TEC implodes it will be because of the choices its membership and clergy have made – which is devastatingly sad. But God will NOT be left without a remnant. I attend a traditional orthodox church whose liturgy is not watered down, whose mission it is to worship according to the Book of Common Prayer. The membership remains stable and has for generations due to Rectors who have nurtured and protected the faith.
John Wesley – reformer, organizer, and preacher par excellence – had several tidbits of advice for preachers for a time like this; similar to events of discord and change in his own time:
“When preaching, always look a mob in the eye.”
When was the last time that today’s versions of Wesley preached so as to create a mob? When THAT happens, there will be hope for this Church.
Every single thing you guys say about (your version of) Christianity could, and probably is, said by Muslims about Islam, and by Mormons about their faith.
D.C., because other people are ardent about their faiths, does that mean that there is no way to distinguish among them? For those who don’t believe in the existence of Truth, there is no way to accept or reject any of them. I’m glad I am not left with the unhappy inability to believe in anything.
#19: The Law of non-contradiction means that “versions” of Christianity can be sorted by faithfulness to a True Christianity.
Perhaps, lobbing implied comparative insults regard Islam/Mormonism is easier that addressing the contradictory Gospels being promoted?!?
My wife is a PA at a SC Episcopal Church. It is relatively uncommon for her to get back letters of transfer. She has even received letters stating”We do not transfer out members”. Just an observation.
So theoretically the “spiritual quality†will be at its zenith when TEC achieves a member-to-bishop quotient of 1 or less?
Ken Peck-I seem to have been “disappeared” from the responses but since you obviously read mine… You are correct, incompetence and indifference on the part of pastors are not always the reason for a congregation diminishing. And one hopes that good Bishops know when that is the case and act accordingly. But it seems far too common in my experience, and “nothing sharpens the mind like the sight of the gallows”. Given the choice of performing the mission or closing, there would be far fewer pastors retired in place, and we would know which congregations really believe their churches are doing something which makes it worth their tithe.
Elves, a note and an opportunity to respond would be appropriate, private message if you prefer.
[Doug – no comment here by you has been deleted. Rarely they do not make it to the thread – copying a comment before posting can help – Elf]