What were early church impressions of Mary?
Oden: It is very speculative, but my own view is that the mother of Jesus was quite important to the earliest church””the church during the writing of the gospel of Luke. It was probably written in Ephesus during the middle part of the first century, and there is a very good chance that Mary was living there at that time.
Now if you take that as a premise, which is uncertain historically, you then have a very important figure in the whole world church who is still alive. She has stored these memories in her heart. She is highly revered. After she died, [the church] was facing much persecution, and there was a great emphasis on the memory of holy lives. She was certainly at the center of that.
This strikes me as more wish fulfillment than rational argument. The notion that Mary was anything of the sort in the time of Luke is nothing but empty speculation. L:arry
And your degree in biblical studies comes from ….?
My biblical studies degree is from a Southern Baptist liberal arts school, and I agree with Oden.
One hardly needs a degree of any kind to see that:
“It is very speculative, but my own view is that the mother of Jesus was quite important to the earliest church—the church during the writing of the gospel of Luke. It was probably written in Ephesus during the middle part of the first century, and there is a very good chance that Mary was living there at that time.
Now if you take that as a premise, which is uncertain historically, you t”
rests on no real evidence whatsoever. Mary living in Ephesus? You know that how? She was important to the church? And this position comes from where? This is mere speculation and Oden says so. I have no objection to speculation unless the speaker then goes on to act as if it is true. This makes speculation wishfulfillment and utterly unreliable. Larry
So you (1) admit that you’re not a biblical scholar, and then (2) criticize Oden for laying out a hypothetical that he’s already taken time to say is a hypothetical.
I have one degree in biblical studies and one degree in theology, and I think Oden’s right on target here. Luke’s high view of Mary has nothing whatever to do with whether or not she lived in Ephesus … it has to do with what he says about her. Oden isn’t pulling this out of the aether, as you imply. He’s undoubtedly thinking of Luke’s repeated and emphatic references to Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.
#5, I am suitably impressed, but then, where does Luke refer to Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant? I borrowed a Bible from the motel next door, but could not find the reference.
I wasn’t aware, incidentally, that one had to be a biblical scholar to know or think anything about what the Bible says. I see my error now.
Painfully Ignorant in Maine
You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to “know or think” anything about the Bible. But it does help to be a biblical scholar when one pronounces–as you did above–that a noted scholar’s tentative theory is “more wish fulfillment than rational argument,” that there’s “no real evidence” for what he’s saying. The drift of my question was, “How do *you* know that?” And you said, in as many words, that you don’t.
The Bible, contrary to what most Christians seem to think, is not simply a morning devotional that can mean whatever you want it to mean. The writers of the books often convey subtle theological points, which can be uncovered through careful study of ancient languages, cultural literary forms, and anthropology. And the topic of Luke’s view of Mary happens to be one of those nuanced areas: easy for someone to miss, but a theological mine for those who want to go deeper.
If you want to know more about Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant, look for Raymond Brown’s book, “The Birth of the Messiah.” That’s as good a place to start as any.
[blockquote]It is very speculative, but my own view is that the mother of Jesus was quite important to the earliest church—the church during the writing of the gospel of Luke.[/blockquote]
“Speculative?” “…[i]my[/i] own view…” What utter nonsense!! There is plenty of evidence that Mary was extremely important to the Church. Why do Protestants fail to grasp this?