Jefferts Schori wasn’t shy in discussing the church’s history in America.
“There are a whole lot of evil tales wrapped up in the history of this place, and a whole lot of good ones,” she said. “The rub is telling the difference.”
She specifically addressed the church’s complicity in the slave trade and the subjugation of American Indians.
“That has not yet fully redeemed itself,” she said. “The work is not yet over.”
“In the next century, God will call on us all in humility to redeem the evil deeds of the past.”
Yesterday’s service was not a somber affair, though. It was warm, but an occasional breeze offered enough respite to keep the crowd focused on the celebratory tone of the day.
“That it’s lasted this long is astounding,” David Silek, who came from Front Royal in Warren County for the day, said of the Episcopal Church’s presence in the U.S. “I realized how blessed we’ve been when I was driving down here on I-95. I realized the difference then from now. If I were the captain, I could now call the queen and say, ‘We’re here.'”
Sandra Garner, a parishioner from Petersburg, took an even more succinct approach: “It means to me that God is alive.”
What a delightful twist of reality!! The idea that putting aside the certainties of the revealed God is a humble endeavor, as opposed to what it really is:
The worst kind of arrogance, in which mankind once again, just as the stiff-necked Jews of the Old Testament, just as the Sanhedrin, just as those who crucified Jesus did, make demands of the Living God. In effect, we are repeating the mistakes of the past by saying to God the following:
Here we go, condemning Jesus to death all over again. May God have mercy on us.
KTF!….mrb
What are these “evil deeds”? Converting native peoples? Preaching the actual Word? If any past deeds were indeed “evil” then they are already in the past and judged by our Lord. This all makes as much sense as praying for those who are already in Hell.
“Humility to examine our certainties” (as defined by her grace) must certainly also include those who believe they are BOTH Muslim and and a legit Episcopal Priest, that Christ was not divine, Mary could not have been a virgin because that is not scientific, and on and on. In her church [sic], it is normal and to be encouraged to question EVERYTHING – and believe in NOTHING (but in your own personal desires). Well, include me OUT.
Church growth….in the PB’s world, pigs also fly…although that isn’t scientific…but wait….if we will just support stem cell research and Frankenstein research…maybe someday…
I’m worried about TODAY’S and TOMORROW’s evils….NOT those supposedly committed 400 years ago. Just imagine all of those poor native souls now walking streets “paved with gold”. Oh the injustice of it all!
Urges “more” growth? How about “shrink more slowly?”
How inexpressibly sad that a church that had been such a blessing for nearly 400 years has fallen to such a state of apostacy as TEC has now fully embraced. Utterly heartbreaking for those of us who came to faith and were nurtured in our Christian growth in the Episcopal Church as it once was.
(1) “Re-examining our certainties” sounds alot like the prior PB’s “your truth meets my truth and together we form a new truth”. (2) Concering growth; I don’t want to go through the whole sad histroy of the 20/20 movement. Suffice it to say that it was the #2 priority of GC 2000, and was killed by EC, because real growth eminating from Biblical evangelism would have populated TEC with actual Christians. When SCDME told EC that TEC was in decline (using TEC’s own data and statistician) that was the final straw for Dr. Crew et. al. I should have figured out sooner. My bad.
Since when do we become the Redeemer? Maybe that is a problem.
Note to Ms. Schori:
Jesus asks this generation, “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord’, and do not the things that I say?
Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up
There is a counter to the above verse, yes?
DonGander
Wouldn’t it be nice if our leaders led by example. We are still looking for the PB to show us some of this humility, to lead us in that path would be a wonderful pastoral step.
Mr. Paine:
I trust you are equally incensed by our genocide against our own children with abortion.
Those who were closer to the events did not call it “genocide” though they certainly knew what genocide was. If you actually study the writings of Teddy Roosevelt and others that were quite close to those times and peoples you will surely come to a different conclusion.
DonGander
That is a rather telling statement for it seems clear that KJS’s theology means exactly that, that humanity is the redeeming force of the world (i.e., the Body of Christ is Christ) and not Jesus, the Redeemer of the world. Following the neo-unitarianism that she preaches, Jesus was the first to exhibit the christ-spirit, but he’s an example, a teacher. So in fact, she is consistent in her theology that it will be humanity that will redeem itself. That’s an interesting theology – a very old one, in fact – but it’s not Anglican Christianity. This is not why the martyrs died. And it’s certainly not why my early Anglican Virginia ancestors believed when they came to Virginia.
bb
In what way did #2 dismiss genocide?
As to certainties, it’s the usual: Your certainties we certainly question… mine… well that’s another matter. Remember, all certainties are not created equal.
I’m with #12 Baby Blue
It is not humble to claim we are able to redeem the evil deeds of the past 400 years.
In fact, it is arrogant to claim we are able to redeem the evil deeds of the past 400 years.
We are called to humbly repent of our own misdeeds, to trust in our Savior, and seek to lead a new life in keeping with Gid’s will.
As someone present at the event I can report that the PB recounted several examples.
Pocahontas was taken by the settlers as a hostage. She was married to a settler — by free choice? — and latter died at age 21 while in England.
The PB talked at length about the complex character John Smith.
The National Park exhibits themselves document several cases where settlers who were married to native American women while at the same time had wives back in England. Perhaps they were Muslims.
And then we have the case of slavery which began here as a result of the development of tobacco as a cash crop. The church sanctioned slavery. Let’s remember that was the established church, the Anglican Church.
There are plenty of evil tales to confront, bb. I trace my Anglican roots back to the early days of Virginia as well.
The PB talked at length about the complex character John Smith.
The National Park exhibits themselves document several cases where settlers who were married to native American women while at the same time had wives back in England. Perhaps they were Muslims.
And then we have the case of slavery which began here as a result of the development of tobacco as a cash crop. The church sanctioned slavery. Let’s remember that was the established church, the Anglican Church.
But John, what’s the difference if Jesus gets them in the end;-
Slightly edited by elf.
I’m really tired of all of this pandering to the victim mongers. No need to apologize for anything the church did or didn’t do either to the Indians or relative to slavery. Slavery was accepted by the church virtually everywhere until the early 19th century when Enlightenment thought gained influence and it began to fall out of favor. The church’s role in dealing with America’s Indians needs no apology either. TEC continues making a spectacle of itself with all of this breast beating and slavish kowtowing to every fashion of political correctness. Pathetic.
“#10 Ah, I see. So it’s wrong to kill people before they get here, but OK after they’re born? ”
I do not respond to “straw dog” questions. I trust the wisdom of the readers and posters to know that some accusations are best not responded to.
God calls us to be simply honest in our discussions. My assumption is that on this T19 the debate is about ideas and not personages. I will gladly respond in a way that reveals exactly what I think and where my convictions lie (as best as I am able). I will not bother to defend that which I did not say nor allude to.
DonGander
I also am tired of liberal self hate. I would take TEC a lot more seriously if it actively addressed modern day slavery.
Maybe we should tear down 815, plow salt into the ground and require all Bishops to pay 50% of their salaries as reparations for the next 100 years?
#19,
Indeed. But then that would require them to point the accusing finger at Africans and Moslems and that would offend their self-loathing article of faith that all of the world’s evils were caused by white males.
Hmmm. What’s wrong with retelling our past mistakes? (It’s part of 12 step programs for example.) Or should we only concentrate on the glorious parts of history? Jefferson was fond of history for the lessons it could tell, but he didn’t trust historians to tell the truth.
Kendall frequently keeps in front of his readers the history of slavery in America. If nothing else it keeps us appropriately humble and mindful that in similar circumstances we might have gone along with the crowd. I cannot speak for our fellow Anglicans in the Global South but it would strike me as odd that at the anniversary of Jamestown we did not acknowledge how it planted the seeds for slavery of Africans. I do agree, though, with the sentiment that we all need to be aware that focusing on the history of slavery could be one stumbling block in growing to where the West and the Global South are equals in the Anglican Communion.
Perhaps one purpose of retelling our past mistakes in subjigating others is to learn we are capable of evil, and to try to avoid it in our time. But then you’ll accuse me of an elliptical reference to the persecution of homosexuals. Sorry.
However, telling the story of salvery and native americans also implicates them. The Native Americans were not above killing rival tribes nor were African tribes above selling other tribes into slavery.
#20, Br. M has a valid point. TEC is run by bishops who, like KJS, set the agenda, no matter what the people want. (I know how we are supposed to have a democratic form of governance, but that horse is so dead we can’t even beat him/her anymore). But if the Church of England favored slavery then the only logical conclusion is that the Bishops must have decided that one. There would be no way to know what the people actually may have felt about it, but we know what the bishops thought. So, let the reparations begin. Point of personal priviledge–if we are going to plow and salt the earth I favor a larger target than 815.
TEC Growth def: Increasing rapidly in a negative direction. Or so it would seem.
To the TEC: As an old evangelical hymn once said. “..Let’s talk about Jesus..” Because our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus Christ.
It was said by someone who name I can’t rember that a noted evangelist preaching Jesus in Ireland was confronted by a rather inebriated Irishman who insisted that the man preach on the shamrock. After many interruptions by the drunk the evangelist spoke and said “..on Christ the solid rock I stand – all other rocks are sham rocks..”
Nuff said!
So that takes care of Jesus. Jesus did not denounce slavery.
That takes care of Paul. Paul did not denounce slavery.
That takes care of John, Peter, James, and Jude.
None of them denounced slavery.
Therefore none of them is Apostolic.
And so none of them can be believed, or taken to be authentic, nor can their testimony be accepted, because THEY DID NOT DENOUNCE SLAVERY.
To be truly Apostolic one must regard slavery as the great evil of this age. We know this to be true because of the teaching authority of PB Schori.
And slavery was (and is) the way of the world. Some of the worst slavers were the Vikings, who mainly enslaved white people. Second to them come the coastal tribes in Africa, who took slaves from the interior and sold them, either to Europe or to America.
And as for the subjugation of the native Americans, they are not Indians. Indians are the people who reside in the Indian subcontinent. PB Schori needs to be more politically correct here.
How can we redeem the mistakes of the past? Both the people in charge and the people harmed by the mistakes of the past are dead. Can we disinter them and apologize to their shades? I thought we had a Redeemer. What did I miss?
Oh, that’s right. Jesus is not the Redeemer. He did not denounce slavery, nor did He devote His life to its extirpation. His Kingdom was not of this world. And we need to establish a Kingdom IN THIS WORLD in which slavery is abolished. I forgot.
So we, like the Prophet Muhammad, like the inspired religious leader Joseph Smith, like so many other religious leaders, must scrap everything and start over again.
Former PB Griswold told us that we were doing a new thing.
Wow.
Thrill.
And unborn babies are not people. They are just tissue. So they can be aborted. I know, David said that God knew him before he was born. But that was just unscientific primitive belief. And we know better now.
Honestly. You could not make this stuff up.
“In the next century, God will call on us all in humility to redeem the evil deeds of the past”
Anyone want to venture a guess as to what the heck that means? Any supporters of the PB (are you there?)…what scripture supports this? How can I redeem the evil deeds of the past if I want to be obedient to God’s call according her? What evil deeds?
# 22. John B. Chilton
My problem with this is the confusion between personal responsibility (like 12 step programs and Anglican Prayer Book confessions of sin) and some kind of claim of continuing historical responsibility of an ethnic group.
This confusion is revealed when we ask: Who is the “our” in the sentences?
Are all American citizens included? Or does this refer to a specific ethnic subgroup? Does this attribute to them the responsibility for actions taken by their ancestors centuries before they were born?
#27 Craig Stephans
Wow! Do you suppose their is a planned public relations project of covering the liquidation of TEC properties with a grand gesture of paying compensation to the historical victims of the Episcopal Church?
That would frame the sell off of properties with a focus on “justice” rather than the decline in membership.
Deja Vu,
You have a point. It’s not constructive to hold the wrong group accountable. Note, however, I also wrote “mindful that in similar circumstances [cultural justification of slavery] we might have gone along with the crowd.” Besides if America as an entity is going to claim the glories of our past we should also be willing to acknowledge it wasn’t all peaches and cream.
#29
If your grand jesture by TEC ever comes to pass, they should make to first payout to the most recent victims of the Episcopal Church – those of her former members who still hold fast to the faith once delivered for all to the saints and were driven from their churches for their belief.
#30 JBC, I totally agree with your assessment that we should be mindful of our own propensity to sin. That includes not being too quick to “pluck weeds” or “cast stones”. You will forgive me if I stray from this, but that is why it is ESSENTIAL that we continue to focus on the judgement of deeds, writings, and attitudes, and try to stay away from judging the folks proffering them. If there is a harder task in human nature, I’m unsure what it is. But it is a God-breathed requirement that we love people and deplore actions.
This deploring of our ancestors acceptance of slavery is almost like original sin, piled onto us before we were born, a product of our very animal nature. Then again, that’s what the Savior is for.
And it is this process by which TEC and the HOB seem to be trying really hard to remove the historical Jesus (and/or God) from the center of the Christian message that has prompted this entire reasserter movement. The actions of a few, the apathy of many, the ignorance of more still have brought us to a place where God is no longer the center of our worship, where revealed Truth has to take a 2nd Seat to Social Justice, where Salvation is no longer the primary business of the Church.
In the words of Benedict XVI, “Jesus came to earth first of all to open the very gates of heaven and bring God to earth.” You can’t explain that away by telling people to focus on feeling bad about slavery 400 years ago. You cannot explain away the supernatural quality of His existence by “re-examining our certainties”.
Whew! Have I missed anything guys? What a mess!
KTF!…mrb
The Elves chopped off my comment as a personal attack, so I will not address this to anyone in particular (which is appropriate based on the content of this thread)
I have been put off by posters on this site before. Obviously, we don’t always agree and some of it can get quite heated. That said, I can honestly say that I have never been so appalled as I am by this thread. There are direct statements that are bigoted and racist, statements that write off human suffering as inconsequential, statements blame victims for their own suffering. If you can honestly see your words being consistent with the teachings of Jesus, then I fear there is no hope for you.
To be truly Apostolic one must regard slavery as the great evil of this age. We know this to be true because of the teaching authority of PB Schori.
It does not invalidate their Apostolicity, but it does call into question their moral authority.
#32 Well Said!
#33 I guess it is good Jesus redeemed us.
“In the next century, God will call on us all in humility to redeem the evil deeds of the pastâ€
Anyone want to venture a guess as to what the heck that means? Any supporters of the PB (are you there?)…what scripture supports this? How can I redeem the evil deeds of the past if I want to be obedient to God’s call according her? What evil deeds?
++Katharine is simply talking about the fact that we are in a constant state of spiritual growth as humans. Our understandings change. Much as we look back 100+ years and wonder how we could do the things we did as human beings (well, some of us do anyway), our descendants will look back 100 years from now and wonder how we did what we are doing.
I would imagine you could find any number of Bible verses speaking to the subject of personal and corporate accountability.
As to what you can do to redeem the past and follow Jesus in the future, I think to live your life aware of the past and receptive to the conviction of the Holy Spirit is all any of us can do.
“We need the humility to re-examine our certainties”
Starting with the certainty that we need the humility to reexamine our certainties. I have been truly humble and have examined her certainty on this matter, and conclude in all humility that it is a certainty that she is wrong. Instead, we do NOT need the humility to reexamine our uncertainties, neither do we need the humility to NOT reexamine our uncertainties. Therefore, I shall cease humbly reexamining certainty. Of this I am humbly and reexaminedly certain.
# 36 “++Katharine is simply talking about the fact that we are in a constant state of spiritual growth as humans. ” Brian I think that we are far from evolving spiritually as humans. The last hundred years have had more inhumanity to man than any other time in history. Hitlar killed 12 million, Stalin doubled that, China is in the millions, Cambodia, Ruwanda, Darfur. Piracy is increasing, there is a strong slave trade, trafficing in children for sexual pleasure is propably at an all time high. Where is man’s spiritual evolution?
#34 Brian from T19 and #30 John Chilton
Right now African American women are 19 times more likely than white women to get HIV. And two thirds of African American children are born to single mothers. They need support for the institution of monogamous heterosexual marriage.
But right now we are waiting to see if the Supreme Court will even take the case rejected by the 9th curcuit that denies them the right to use the words “marriage” and “natural family” on a flyer to organize a Christian women’s group in an Oakland city office.
Who opposes this? LGBT lobby. It is in the interest of the LGBT lobby to undermine traditional marriage. That is here and now.
So if you care about African Americans, why don’t you focus on what is happening now? The LGBT lobby is part of the problem now.
Do Col. Shaw’s descendant’s have to pay repirations too? Or have we degenerated into WAY too many unsupportable absolutes?
Dave B
Where is man’s spiritual evolution?
Well, I would start within some areas of Christianity. What I was referring to (and I think ++Katharine was too) is our responsibility as followers of Jesus to evolve as humans and corporately as the Body of Jesus
So if you care about African Americans, why don’t you focus on what is happening now?
I do. And the 2 are not mutually exclusive.
Wow! 400 years! and not much chance of getting much older! What a shame that in one short generation (from the 1960’s to today) that a few radicals succeeded in tearing apart such a heritage and taking the Episcopal Church down a path of spiritual depravity and self-destruction. 🙁
#42 Brian from T19
It is mutually exclusive. Supporting African American women’s efforts to strengthen traditional marriage as a procreative natural parent partnership and supporting the LGBT lobby efforts to redefine marriage as a partnership of erotic gratification are mutually exclusive.
Really? How does a finite human know what God is going to do in the future? What arrogance!
“What I was referring to (and I think ++Katharine was too) is our responsibility as followers of Jesus to evolve as humans and corporately as the Body of Jesus”
What does that mean, and where does it come from?
Supporting African American women’s efforts to strengthen traditional marriage as a procreative natural parent partnership and supporting the LGBT lobby efforts to redefine marriage as a partnership of erotic gratification are mutually exclusive.
Your premise is flawed. One has absolutely no effect on the other. The 2 spheres do not coincide in any way.
What does that mean, and where does it come from?
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.
1 John 3:9-11
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Hebrews 5:12-14
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?
1 Corinthians 3:1-3
#48 Brian “You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly”,and, “who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil” (we are quarreling about good and evil).
. Brian after looking at your scriptural referances and the actions of all involved in the TEC mess I ask Where is the spiritual growth when factions, law suits, and harsh words abound ?
Brian, would you agree with me that the great pitfall of the church in all these matters has been what some have called the doctrine of “sola cultura?” If the people want it, the church finds a way to go along with it. Or, more accurately, if the important people — the people who count — want it, the church will support it.
# 47. Brian from T19, are you denying that there are conflicts inherent in these two definitions of marriage:
1) marriage as a procreative natural parent partnership and
2) marriage as a partnership of erotic gratification?
You say that “One has absolutely no effect on the other.” and that “The 2 spheres do not coincide in any way.”
But in fact, when marriage is defined in terms of the parent bond, it is structured for the care of children. When it is defined in terms of erotic gratification, it is structured to benefit the adults such that children are auxilliary, second class citizens.
Do you honestly not understand?
I’ve heard that there is a propaganda technique:
Perhaps you are usiing the corollary:
“”In the next century, God will call on us all in humility to redeem the evil deeds of the past.”
How about ECUSA putting an end to the evil deeds it’s doing right now?
So here’s my question:
If Anglicanism got it so wrong with slavery, how can we trust them to get the same-sex issues right. If they can’t recognize the evil in a social system, how can they accurately describe an aspect of our very humanity?
ECSA/TEC better get busy! At the current rate of growth there won’t be anyone left in 2030. So the PB’s scientific virtuosity is once again lost in her mathematical ability? Or is it political virtuosity lost in theological ability? Or is it, really at heart like the MDG thingie, the ECUSA/TEC needs to lobby the government to do more? So hard to get this postmodernist “gospel” pinned down!
http://babybluecafe.blogspot.com/2007/06/breaking-news-california-court-of.html
Makes a good point wrt this 400 years meme of Schori’s. For the first 200 years, the native congregations in North America operated at a far distance from their episcopal see. Taking this a step further, we can see that while the new US situation might have had Anglican elements, the concept of Episcopalianism had exceeding shallow roots circa 1800. So, Schori as usual is extolling another New Thing, historically. Her embrace of the Traditional isn’t quite what it is presented in this article.
“Onward CHRISTIAN soldiers, marching as to war”
BTW – my family immigrated to North America in 1872 from Norway. I just might be convinced to feel sorry about my “berzerker” relatives of the past raping and pillaging Europe and Russia, even if it was before their conversion to Christianity, but no….I’m not taking any accountability for your so-called “genocide” here in North America with native peoples. How my family became Episcopalian in the early 1900’s probably had something to do with the Episcopal bishop here at that time, who preached the word of God – contrary to what is being done today by THIS bishop.
Still just a little berzerk….watch out…
#57 midwestnorwegian, you fail to take into account the fact that your grandsires benefited from the displacement of Native Americans from the land: farming can support a lot more people than hunting-gathering. And your more remote, pagan ancestors benefited from enslaving the French, British, Irish and Slavs. And your even more remote ancestors benefited from enslaving each other.
Boy, do you owe some reparations or what? Of course, since some of your remoter ancestors were undoubtedly enslaved, perhaps that will mitigate some of your ancestral debt.
Ok, I’m tired of being serious about this. Comic relief:
(Bill Murray as John Winger, Stripes)
KTF!….mrb
#58 You make a good point. I’m going to immediately throw up everything I have ever consumed and move back to Norway, where there is proper agnosticism instead of agnosticism under the TEC veil of “inclusion” and “diversity”.
Nah…on second thought – I’ll polish off my Viking helmet and sword…be warned…
Didn’t Isaiah say a little something about the sins of the fathers not being visited on subsequent generations. Talk about liberal guilt mongering! Will someone explain to me the widespread contemporaty desire to apologize (and pay off) for the behavior of generations long dead? In what way have we inherited there “crimes,” Which, as has been pointed out here, were often not crimes when they were committed long ago. Consider the Salem witch trials. You have all read at one time or another what a vicious practice and grave abuse of justice the Salem trials were. And yet, this is nonsense. If one genuinely believed in witches and had ample proof that they existed – and this WAS the case – why would one not execute them? All Europe did precisely that; America was one of the restrained places. On what grounds should we now feel guilt, we who had nothing to do with the issue. Is this cause for guilt, shame, remorse and a weeping and gnashing of teeth? We are innocent of the charge, in fact, and we are supposed to pay?
Why this strange insistence on guilt by ancestral association? My Currier ancestors were killed by Indians in Salisbury,Mass in the early 17th century. His neighbors returned the favor to the Indians. Shal I argue that the Amerinds owe me reparations?
Mercy. Time for the sense of humor to kick in.
[i]Jefferts Schori marks the church’s 400 years, urges more growth[/i]
Somehow in spite of all of the lawsuits, name-calling, lies, out-right theft, and generally un-Christian-like action of our denomination, led by our PB, we are supposed to grow the church. When I was in the service, we had an expression, “The beatings will continue until morale improves.”
Talk about a dysfunctional family…
#62: I laffed and laffed and even larfed and larfed. I never heard that expression before, but I have written it down. Larry