Would I be correct that a number of the foreign dioceses are not included because they did not report on time?
The domestic numbers are scary enough. While the report does not include comparisons to previous years, those are simple enough to figure out. And note that Pittsburgh, Fort Worth and Quincy are all included at pre-departure numbers, which would leave the pre-GC2009 domestic numbers well below 700,000 ASA. With more losses due to the GC, bishop’s election in LA, and bishops elections in general, one begins to wonder if the real ASA is still much above 600,000. Of course, we won’t know the real current state until we see the 2010 numbers in late 2011 (which will account for the departures of 2009. The impact of the 2008 diocesan departures will not show up til this time next year, when the 2009 numbers are released).
Right now? Third Sunday of Advent? I’d betcha the actual number would be around 500K, if there was any way to get a solid number. Given the date of this 700K figure, what’s happened since, and knowing how easily you can “round up” (to be generous) ASA numbers, I don’t think 500K a Sunday in the pews is ungenerous.
Of course, I don’t believe SBC’s “as reported” figures, either, but they are working at getting more real about their stats. I’d put them around 12M actual members and maybe 5M a Sunday in pews, based on what I hear reported and what I know is going on inside the sanctuary. Only UMC numbers are close to reliable as presented, since the apportionment system is such a strong incentive to report only the numbers you actually have present and contributing. If a Methodist parish says their year-round Sunday average is 225, you can bank on it not actually being 182, something I wouldn’t say about any other mainline numbers. Disciples of Christ, for instance, are probably 200K in pews a Sunday, barely 700K in official membership.
I think that there are 3 “sacred” numbers for the Domestic Dioceses of TEC. 1) 7 thousand parishes and missions: this one fell to 6,964 in 2008. 2) 700 thousand for ASA: this one will certainly fall below 700 thousand in 2009 (available in late 2010). And 3) 2 million Members: this one MAY fall below 2 million in 2009. And data for the “new and improved” dioceses of Fort Worth, Quincy, and Pittsburgh should be included. All of these data will be available in late 2010. Membership below 2 million will be a hard pill to swallow for TEC. Statmann
The numbers that caught my eye was deltas between plate-and-pledge to overall incomes. Dioceses that have large amounts of endowment income are also hotbeds of liberal/progressive innovations. They can continue even as plate-and-pledge declines.
Membership numbers vary widely in accuracy from denomination to denomination. Dr. Eileen Lindner of the National Council of Churches has a good article about this in the 2009 Yearbook of Churches.
Generally, churches like the Presbyterian Church (USA) that have a per-member assessment tend to be the most accurate (the PCUSA saw many churches clear their rolls when the General Assembly ask was increased from $1 a member to over $40 a member.) Conversely, historically African-American churches are some of the worst offenders in this area, reporting static numbers for the past decade that always conveniently end in several zeros.
Would I be correct that a number of the foreign dioceses are not included because they did not report on time?
The domestic numbers are scary enough. While the report does not include comparisons to previous years, those are simple enough to figure out. And note that Pittsburgh, Fort Worth and Quincy are all included at pre-departure numbers, which would leave the pre-GC2009 domestic numbers well below 700,000 ASA. With more losses due to the GC, bishop’s election in LA, and bishops elections in general, one begins to wonder if the real ASA is still much above 600,000. Of course, we won’t know the real current state until we see the 2010 numbers in late 2011 (which will account for the departures of 2009. The impact of the 2008 diocesan departures will not show up til this time next year, when the 2009 numbers are released).
Right now? Third Sunday of Advent? I’d betcha the actual number would be around 500K, if there was any way to get a solid number. Given the date of this 700K figure, what’s happened since, and knowing how easily you can “round up” (to be generous) ASA numbers, I don’t think 500K a Sunday in the pews is ungenerous.
Of course, I don’t believe SBC’s “as reported” figures, either, but they are working at getting more real about their stats. I’d put them around 12M actual members and maybe 5M a Sunday in pews, based on what I hear reported and what I know is going on inside the sanctuary. Only UMC numbers are close to reliable as presented, since the apportionment system is such a strong incentive to report only the numbers you actually have present and contributing. If a Methodist parish says their year-round Sunday average is 225, you can bank on it not actually being 182, something I wouldn’t say about any other mainline numbers. Disciples of Christ, for instance, are probably 200K in pews a Sunday, barely 700K in official membership.
I think that there are 3 “sacred” numbers for the Domestic Dioceses of TEC. 1) 7 thousand parishes and missions: this one fell to 6,964 in 2008. 2) 700 thousand for ASA: this one will certainly fall below 700 thousand in 2009 (available in late 2010). And 3) 2 million Members: this one MAY fall below 2 million in 2009. And data for the “new and improved” dioceses of Fort Worth, Quincy, and Pittsburgh should be included. All of these data will be available in late 2010. Membership below 2 million will be a hard pill to swallow for TEC. Statmann
The numbers that caught my eye was deltas between plate-and-pledge to overall incomes. Dioceses that have large amounts of endowment income are also hotbeds of liberal/progressive innovations. They can continue even as plate-and-pledge declines.
Grady
Membership numbers vary widely in accuracy from denomination to denomination. Dr. Eileen Lindner of the National Council of Churches has a good article about this in the 2009 Yearbook of Churches.
Generally, churches like the Presbyterian Church (USA) that have a per-member assessment tend to be the most accurate (the PCUSA saw many churches clear their rolls when the General Assembly ask was increased from $1 a member to over $40 a member.) Conversely, historically African-American churches are some of the worst offenders in this area, reporting static numbers for the past decade that always conveniently end in several zeros.
Link to 2007 report:
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/documents/Financial__ASA_Totals_by_Diocese_2007.pdf