This is just sad. The State Newspaper has livestreaming coverage
Governor Sanford Has An Affair and resigns from Republican Governors Association
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This is just sad. The State Newspaper has livestreaming coverage
The press must have had wind of this for at least a few days thereby giving the absence such a big splash for what was otherwise almost a non-starter story.
[blockquote] Well, listen if he was off robbing a bank or having an affair, believe me, I’ll be the first to be appalled.[/blockquote]
I am appalled.
Never cared about his “disappearance” [sic] but an affair — that’s bad bad bad bad. He needs to resign, obviously, and retire in disgrace.
Glad this came out before any ill-fated run for another office like Senator or something.
A pity — he’s an actual conservative who cares about the Constitution and the corrupt and increasing power of the State. But that’s all for naught — because he’s an adulterer who breaks his word concerning sacred vows. Good job, Sanford!
One can debate as to whether his affair translates to an inability to govern, but it’s not debatable that such lack of discretion and judgement exposes him to blackmail. His behavior is a complete outrage.
Bill Clinton, Elliot Spitzer, John Edwards, Mark Sanford…I’m getting tired of reading this same old script.
Well, I’m sure that he could “govern” — but that’s not my reasoning for wanting him to resign. He’s a man who committed adultery and violated his vows in *the most important relationship that he will ever have on earth*, along with betraying the next four most important relationships that he will ever have on earth — his children.
He’s a Republican — I’m confident that he will resign in disgrace should trends hold.
And Jim McGreevey, lets not forget him.
Which Republicans involved in a sex scandel have resigned?
[Off topic comment deleted by Elf]
[blockquote]Which Republicans involved in a sex scandel have resigned? [/blockquote]
Bob Livingstone and Newt Gingrich come to mind. Mark Foley, too.
I misspoke about Gingrich…it appears his resignation was over politics, not an affair (though I believe he was having an affair during the Lewinsky scandal).
I guess I was thinking of recently, but I had forgotten about Foley.
After listening to him it sounds like he is still charmed by this woman.
Of course, if this was a democrat, the DNC would pour funds into his re-election coffers and nominate him for some high-ranking committee should he decide to run for congress.
Because he is a Republican, he is to be hounded out of office and forced to resign in disgrace.
Not that I condone what he did, mind you, But the double standard forced on us by the Democratic Party is pathetic.
#2 has it right. This is a shame. Till today I hoped Gov Sanford was the future of the GOP. Not now. Pray for his family; for him, too, and all tied in with the mess.
#13, libraryjim, what in the heck are you talking about? The Democrats are responsible for forcing him to resign in disgrace?!? Really?
Do you want a list of adulterous Republicans still in office and a list of Democrats who didn’t survive their infidelity? Get serious.
A guy who does this proves himself to be morally bankrupt and politically beyond clueless and is obviously not fit for high office — Republican or Democrat.
#9–Jeffersonian:
The disgraced former Speaker of the House who shares my name and who led the campaign to impeach Clinton for his lack of morals, spells his name “Livingston.” It seems Livingstones are known for their piety (John & David) and Livingstons come from a long line of horse thieves and politicians.
Bob Livingston
I stand corrected, #16, though I am aghast at your slandering of honest horse thieves.
Librayjim, I am an independent, not a Democrat, but from my memory of major sex scandals over the last 10 years Republicans are the ones who stay in office. Perhaps there are some I do not recall to support your theory, but these are the ones I recall.
Politician Party Status
Clinton Democrat Impeached, acquitted,
No longer in office
Elliot Spencer Democrat Resigned
John Edwards Democrat No longer in Office
Jim McGreevey Democrat Resigned
David Vittner Republican Still in Office
John Ensign Republican Still in Office
Mark Sanford Republican Still in Office
Larry Craig Republican Still in Office
Mark Foley Republican Resigned
Jim Gibbons Republican Still in Office
Bob Livingston Republican Resigned
Newt Gingrich Republican Resigned, but potential
Republican Presidential
candidate in 2012
Governor Sanford’s admission of adultery is deeply disappointing. But, having sinned often and significantly in my own life, I seek to cast no stones. The politics of this heartbreaking news do not concern this SC citizen. My heart goes out to his wife, his boys and to him. He and they are, and will continue to be, in my prayers. I hope that many readers of TitusOneNine will join me.
[Off topic comment deleted by Elf]
Clinton was impeached, but NOT removed from office, and served until the end of his SECOND term, the limit imposed by the Constitution on the number of terms a president can serve. He neither resigned, nor was forced to resign, and NOW and other liberal and Democrat groups came to his support.
Newt Gingrich resigned not because of imorality, but because of political maneuvering, among others for authoring a book and taking the royalties. An offense of which many Democrats, including then Senator Al Gore are also ‘guilty’ but overlooked.
John Edwards served one term, and was not reelcted, but not because of his sex scandal. That was only revealed recently, after a failed bid for the presidential nomination. He was not in public office at the time.
You can’t count Mark Sanford because that just came to light and we don’t know the outcome, but it will probably lead to his resignation.
You forgot to mention Barney Frank (D), who had a male prostitution ring run from his Washington house. Still in office.
Also, William Jefferson (D, La) who was caught with a freezer full of cash after hurricane Katrina, and who commandeered National Guard rescue vehicles to rescue his computer and files from his home, tying them up from real needs. Still in office, but MAY come up on charges.
The double standard accusation still holds.
[Comment deleted by Elf – partly off topic and partly crudely expressed]
libraryjim, no the accusation does not still hold. Your partisanship is not letting you think very clearly. Your list combined with Mitchell’s just shows that there is no absolute rule; sometimes politicians get away with their known indiscretions, other times not. There’s no clear pattern with respect to party affiliation.
I must add, though, that your New Gingrich example was especially humorous, because there you acknowledge that the adulterer (the circumstances of the offense were especially egregious) survived that indiscretion only to be damaged by another.
Do you really think John Edwards has a political future now . . . because he is a Democrat? Really?
Would you seriously sooner have someone with André Bauer’s moral compass as governor, Sarah?
[blockquote]You forgot to mention Barney Frank (D), who had a male prostitution ring run from his Washington house. Still in office.[/blockquote]
Or the late Gerry Studds, who didn’t just send inappropriate messages to underage pages, but actually had sex with one. He served out his term after being censured and was reelected six times more.
[Comment referring to off topic comment deleted by Elf]
What an idiot. Pride goeth before the fall. As a physician, I know my colleagues who fall for this think that they are God’s gift to women. In reality, being a physician’s wife is a royal pain. That my wife has put up with me, I am so very grateful and I tell her daily.
Two corrections:
Mitchell, Craig is not still in office. He wisely declined to run for reelection and was replaced by Republican Senator Jim Risch.
Libraryjim, Jefferson is not still in office, either. He was defeated last year by Republican Rep. Joseph Cao (notable for being the first Vietnamese-American in Congress).
These kind of incidents are just sad. Party makes no difference.
Just sad. It is kind of interesting that some of the same folks who find this behavior sinful have no problem with infanticide.
How long, O lord.
Frankly, I’m far less concerned about public officials having affairs than I am of all of the lying, conniving, and stealing that goes on in that particular circle. An affair is THAT FAMILY’S business — no one else’s — and all of this “gotcha” [stuff] and tearful podium confessions just make it much more painful for his family. It’s rubbish.
The only thing that the constituents have every right to feel betrayed about is the disappearing act and not attending to his duties.
[Slightly edited by Elf]
Adultery [i]per se[/i] is often not enough to require resignation in disgrace. Resignation usually follows when it is paired with another, more “public” indiscretion: misuse of office, criminal behavior, or sheer hypocrisy. For example, it was not Gov. Spitzer’s adultery that drove him from office, it was the fact that he did it with a prostitute (crime) and that he had prosecuted people in similar cases (hyprocrisy). And of course, in the case of President Clinton, it was not the affair but the lying about it that got him impeached.
Is it still established that nobody in the governor’s office knew where he was? If that’s the case, I’d want him out of office for his irresponsibility, not for breaking his marriage vows. But then, I’m neither a South Carolinian nor a Republican.
He should go. Period.
#18 shouldn’t Ted Kennedy be on the list from the 1969 incident?
Someone was interview on one of the major news network, and said this about Gov. Sanford: “He has his faults, but is deeply religious.”
I need to think about this before commenting.
#33 I was not attempting an exhaustive list of American sex scandals. That is why I picked the last decade or so. I was really only refuting the notion that there is a double standard and Republicans are held to account for their sex scandals but Democrats are not.
#28 thank you for the correction, I was operating from memory.
Like cancer, affairs are no respecter of position, wealth, or ideals. I hate to say it, but I told a friend yesterday, that this guy is having an affair….regardless of where he is, it is an affair, end of story…I hated Bill Clinton (even though I am a registerd Democrat), when he “educated” my 15 year old granddaughter…..but those who condemned him…are even lower…….Hilary had put up with it for years, but he went over the line…..and I do think he lied becaue of Chelsey more than anything..plus the fact that he crossed Hilary’s line in the sand……
Newt resigned because he was told to resign by his party….He failed his assignment…get Clinton….I had a dear aunt who was very staunch Democrat……she used to say that the Republicans will kill to get what they want……in the next breath she would say that Ted was just taking that girl home…….she went to her grave contending Monica was a plant…….my reply to that was “so” ………
Hubris (/hjubrɪs/) (ancient Greek ὕβÏις) is a term used in modern English to indicate overweening pride, superciliousness, or arrogance, often resulting in fatal retribution or nemesis. In ancient Greece, hubris referred to actions which, intentionally or not, shamed and humiliated the victim, and frequently the perpetrator as well. It was most evident in the public and private actions of the powerful and rich. The word was also used to describe actions of those who challenged the gods or their laws, especially in Greek tragedy, resulting in the protagonist’s downfall.*
The hubris of Mark Sanford! that he thought could get way with adultery (one wonders if he didn’t have a death wish though). This is only surpassed by the combined hubris shown by the media and pundits and wannabees who seem to be blind to the fact that they have done insanely stupid things of the same order.
Let’s pause to bit our tongues and pray to God that the Sanford family might be preserved. There but by the grace of God go we.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
[Although views are understandably strongly felt on this thread please be careful how comments are expressed and stay on topic – Elf]
RE: “I’m sure it was because of the terrible impact that gay marriage had on his own marriage.”
Other than the fact that both adultery and same-gender sexual relations are intrinsically disordered, I’m not certain what “gay marriage” [sic] has to do with adultery. The two don’t seem at all connected other than the sinfulness of the sexual relations involved.
RE: “Would you seriously sooner have someone with André Bauer’s moral compass as governor, Sarah?”
Not at all, Lapin — he’s a disaster of a man, and not a conservative either. He is frankly idiotic. But I’m not certain what the prospect of Bauer being our next governor has to do with the current one needing to resign because he is unable to keep the most important oath he ever made. I don’t make such statements about what *should* happen based on what might happen if what *should* happen actually happens.
Library Jim:
RE: “But the double standard forced on us by the Democratic Party is pathetic.”
You know, honestly, I don’t think the Democratic Party does any such thing.
They don’t campaign, after all, on moral or “family” values — the Republicans do.
That’s why Democrats need to be called on what they [i]do[/i] campaign on [and on which are regularly proven to be solid, unblinking hypocrites] which is that they are the party of compassion, inclusion, acceptance, and non-prejudice. Just as with TECusa progressives, they prove over and over and over that they can’t live up to that rhetoric — it is, after all, merely a blind to cover their own exclusion, rejection, and bigotry against others.
So I don’t think you can blame Democrats for “not living up to moral sexual standards” — they don’t, after all, claim those in their rhetoric. They’re the party of free love and affirmation of gay sex and redefining marriage to include their own favored sexual orientation [while of course *excluding* other unpopular sexual orientations like polyamory, etc, etc.]
So I return to my original statement.
If things run according to trend, the Republican will resign. And he should.
I didn’t comment on whether 1) careers are lost by Democrats being sexually immoral [cue John Edwards], or whether 2) people serve their terms and then are not re-elected, or whether 3) people serve their terms and then choose not to run again — those are all red herrings.
No, if the trend holds, the Republican will resign from his currently held office because of gross sexual immorality. And I hope that he does.
The above lists provide nice demonstrations of the point:
Kennedy — didn’t resign
Clinton — didn’t resign
Edwards — didn’t resign
Frank — didn’t resign
Studds — didn’t resign
I’d be very very intrigued for someone to do a survey with the following criteria of the two parties, going back for as far as the party of the Democrats has been run by the Raving Progressives, which I put at about 50 some years: people in office, who are caught in sexual immorality and that immorality publicized, who resign from that office because of that.
My bet is that the majority of Republicans end up resigning, and quite the opposite for Democrats.
But again . . . I think that’s as it should be. Republicans need to live up to their stated moral and ethical values. And Democrats need to too.
But society doesn’t care as much about the Democrats not living up to *their* stated moral and ethical values, while it still does care about the Republicans’ claimed moral and ethical values.
For which . . . I am very thankful.
I’ll be interested to see if Sanford does the right thing. The gall and bitterness of doing so, while seeing a gloating rival become governor, will be hugely painful.
But . . . I guess it was all worth it . . .
The affair takes too much heat off the real issue at hand. He abandoned the office to which he was elected.
As to Libraryjim’s suggestion of a double standard … well … there is no double standard … the Republicans have set their own standard. The Democrats do not pretend to be the defenders of “moral values” as do the Republicans. That is why when a Republican fails the test of virtue that he, himself, has worked to establish … a public spectacle is made as he is added to the ever growing list of Great American Hypocrites … men who demand that others live by values which they themselves ultimately ignore. And now Governor Sanford joins Senator John Ensign (R-Nevada) who was added … what … a week ago.
We are all hypocrites. I’ve done equally stupid and immoral things. The whole idea that stupid and sinful people are going to argue online (or go at it with glee) on cable news which party is more immoral or has more cheaters is ridiculous.
Bad, bad, bad.
God’s judgment is on everyone who thinks they can throw the first stone.
Perhaps a conversation on how to instill more values in political circles. Any ideas?
RE: “He abandoned the office to which he was elected.”
Nonsense. Bauer and Knotts saw a great opportunity to make a little media hay and they took it, initially. Anyone in SC could see that. Bauer is running for governor. It’s highly likely that he won’t get my vote.
But be that as it may, the “real issue” — the one being covered up by all the previous political posturing by angry non-conservative Republicans — is indeed the gross sexual immorality. The faux issue was the “disappearance” [sic].
RE: “The Democrats do not pretend to be the defenders of “moral values†as do the Republicans.”
Agreed. The only inconsistency is that when Democrats fail to live up to their own much-vaunted values — inclusion, affirmation, compassion, and non-prejudice — society doesn’t particularly care, and so the pointing out of their hypocrisy is passed over.
Lapin, re: Bauer — this is for your interest:
[blockquote]Fred Wszolek, a veteran political consultant who lives in Sullivan’s Island, S.C. , notes that as much as the state’s political players may want Sanford gone, they may dread his replacement even more: “If Sanford resigns, Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer would take over, and most of the rest of the state’s political establishment doesn’t want him becoming governor. First they don’t want him running the state in general, and then there are a congressman, an attorney general, and at least two state legislators who want to run for governor in 2010, and none of them want Andre Bauer to be running as a quasi-incumbent.†Those who seek to run the government may even find the post-scandal Sanford more to their liking: “It’s a weak governorship to begin with institutionally, and he’s now so weakened that he’s now completely beside the point. Now all he’s got is the bully pulpit.â€[/blockquote]
It’s not sad. IN fact, this is a common as dirt, and Americans don’t care much one way or another. For politicians, such high jinx are expected, and they have not let us down, have they? That adultery is common as dirt is the problem, and there is nothing we can do about it because there is precious little punishment that attends it. Why not fool around?
As long as the problem is sex, there is no offense we will not overlook, and hoi pollioi grant to their leaders what they obviously wish granted to themselves. God doesn’t strike them dead; there isn’t any Aslan to chew their heads off.
But one question continues to baffle me: Why do the wives “stand by” their husbands so often? Unless they too have played the same game – like Gov. Patterson and his wife. Sad? No. Unprincipled?
Well,I guess. We shall soon be France. Larry
“Forgive us our trespasses (sins) as we forgive those who trespass (sin) against us.” From “The Lord’s Prayer”
“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” John 8:7
Those aren’t my words but were spoken by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
The matter of judgement belongs to God. I pray that his wife and family can, and will, forgive him. He is after all just a man, a mortal! Anyone can fall to temptation. I support him staying in office and I am a citizen of SC. There is a lot of work ahead of him to regain the trust of his family, friends and the people of SC. I believe, with God’s help, he can do it.
It’s a crowded field out there, Sarah. Nothing personal against Bauer,except that during his first term as Lt Gov, when he lived just around the corner, he was pretty cavalier about parking his SUV across the sidewalk, which can be a pain when one is walking the dogs. Also illegal. But automobiles are not his strong point, are they? I just get a distinct feeling that his ideological position, unlike Sanford’s, is adopted because it gives him the best shot at getting elected, rather than out of deep-seated conviction – and I write this as someone whose politics are light-years removed from those of either Sanford or Bauer.
Seems very possible, given that The State has had the Sanford emails since the end of last year, that this may very well be payback time from the Legislature Republicans for the recent stimulus package business – and, of course, for the earlier disagreements.
RE: “I just get a distinct feeling that his ideological position, unlike Sanford’s, is adopted because it gives him the best shot at getting elected, rather than out of deep-seated conviction – and I write this as someone whose politics are light-years removed from those of either Sanford or Bauer.”
Oh absolutely right — and my politics are very similar to Sanford’s. I’m a conservative.
RE: “. . . this may very well be payback time from the Legislature Republicans for the recent stimulus package business – and, of course, for the earlier disagreements.”
Well, that was clear with the whole Bauer/Knotts touting and announcing the “disappearance” [sic].
They’ve hated him ever since he publicly called them on their pork back in his first term. ; > )
But . . . consequences. His career is over. And that’s for the best.
I’m all for a Palin/Sanford ticket in 2012.
To be honest, Sanford’s press release demonstrated a broken person. I was perturbed by the media’s glee. He had more dignity and honesty than Clinton. He is a human being, with desires like everyone else.
He deserves prayers. Although, unlike others, I don’t vote for saints when I vote for politicians. Sanford was a credible opponent, and its unfortunate that the religious right has forced him to be a hypocrite. He would have been a strong leader, even if I don’t hold to his governing ideology.
I suppose I should be glad that he couldn’t satisfy the personal demands that the religious right desired.
I take some satisfaction that Obama is more responsible in his personal life than the more vocal of the right wing.
#34: In relation to your pondering, from a Washington Post publication, so I assume it’s accurate:
Mark Sanford (R)
At a Glance
Current Position: South Carolina governor (since January 2003)
Career History: chairman of the Republican Governor’s Association (since November 2008); U.S. Representative (1994 to 2000); Owner of Norton&Sanford; real-estate firm (1992 to 2002)
Birthday: May 28, 1960
Hometown: Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Alma Mater: Furman University, B.A. 1983; University of Virginia, MBA 1988
Spouse: Jenny Sullivan Sanford
Religion: Episcopalian
Office: Office of the Governor
P.O. Box 12267
Columbia, SC 29211
http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Mark_Sanford
I particularly noted with interest the reference #38 made to hubris and the classical sense of tragedy. One can see it rampant among us in America these days (quite up close and personal) and one wonders if we aren’t all meeting our nemesis in some fashion or another; our Governor and his precious family being a heartbreaking example. The desires of pride, vainglory, narcissism and greed for power have taken us away from God. I commend Romano Guardini’s warning in his work: The End of the Modern Age where he chillingly warns that when we remove ourselves from God there is no vacant space. The demonic moves in there. Romano Guardini was a German writing after the 2nd World War. He should know.
It took only two generations of Germans apart from God to make the horrible decisions they made. Yes, we should pray for everyone in Gov. Sanford’s life. He has a horrible road ahead and I feel terribly sad for all involved.
I was troubled by the references to not casting stones. No, we can’t cast stones, but we should be looking for our Lord’s writing in the sand. If we are blind to that, we are truly blind.
“Forgive us our trespasses (sins) as we forgive those who trespass (sin) against us.†From “The Lord’s Prayerâ€
“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.†John 8:7
Those aren’t my words but were spoken by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
The matter of judgement belongs to God. I pray that his wife and family can, and will, forgive him. He is after all just a man, a mortal! Anyone can fall to temptation. I support him staying in office and I am a citizen of SC. There is a lot of work ahead of him to regain the trust of his family, friends and the people of SC. I believe, with God’s help, he can do it.
So says Fairmaiden. If we use these standards, we can arrest and punish no one at all, for all must be forgiven. This would make a real world society absolutely unworkable. For those who walk away scot free will repeat their performance; that’s why recidivism is the common standard of those released from prison.
Why should his wife forgive him? For what purpose? Or should she forgive him and then divorce him, taking every damn penny he has because he betrayed her and because betraying a sacred trust is one of mankind’s graves sins. Some forgiveness. If we followed the “first stone” rule, no judgments would ever be possible, for there are no judgments in which someone is not hurt thereby. Just think: Teachers would be unable to fail students and would be obliged to forgive them for being shiftless, lazy scoundrels in the process. Only praise would be permitted. (Hum. That does sound like today’s schools, actually, doesn’t it?) The “first stone” principle, if taken literally, would leave us all cowering in our houses because the streets would belong to the uncontrollable and the ungoverable. Jesus spoke in hyperbole as he spoke in parables. Taking him literallydoes him a real injustice
The problem is simple: We have had too much success, too much money, too much easy life – in short too much prosperity. Bacon has the measure: He tells us that the fruit of prosperity is vice, while the fruit of adversity is virtue. The apple grows on prosperity’s tree .
Jesus spoke in parables and hyperrbole because the people he was speaking to needed these before they would understand. Taking him with such literality is to ask of his words a simple-mindedness that he himself did not espouse. Larry
Don’t feel sad for him. He has made his bed and must lie ini it. Adversity tests us as it should,and how he deals with his own irresponsibility will determine what manner of man he is. Should he resign? Of course. If he will betray his wife, if he will play and hide his games, he will betray his electorate. Confession is good and necessary;contrition (if real) is essential; and full penance is inescapable if one wishes expiate genuine guilt. LMorse
I accidentally removed myself from comments. I do, indeed, wish to receive comments.
Larry Morse, the harshness of your position re: Sanford’s marriage and the possibility of reconciliation is sad. By these lights, no man who ever strayed from his marriage vows should ever be forgiven by his wife. Isn’t this up to the wife, and her judgment about his repentance and their future? The Sanfords have four young sons. It would be greatly to those boys’ advantage if their father can get his act together and be their mother’s husband as he should be. I know a woman who went through something a lot like what Mrs. Sanford is experiencing now. Divorce was talked of, and hearts were broken, and then the husband came to a realization of what he was throwing away, both wife and the children, and they were reconciled. It’s not the same, but it’s good, and better than the alternative for all concerned. What the Sanfords decide to do is not anybody else’s business at this point.
RE: “I suppose I should be glad that he couldn’t satisfy the personal demands that the religious right desired.”
Right . . . because only the “religious right” desires men to not commit adultery. Apparently lefties like adultery and think it’s a great idea. Such a terribly demanding thing to be true to one’s marriage vows — if only Sanford had been a Democrat and hung out with folks like Wilkins, he could have had an open marriage and been much much happier.
Sarah, I don’t think being adulterous or not has much to do with governing. You do. It’s not a matter of wanting him to commit adultery or not.
How about this: I want whatever his wife wants. If she wants him to get divorced and resign from the governorship, let him do it. But if she thinks he should remain governor, then let him finish out his term and have the people of South Carolina decide if they want to base their criteria on governing on adultery.
Lots of human beings make mistakes. Perhaps, however, he’ll be a bit more sensitive about the human condition when he complains about others moral failings. Those who shout loudest seem to have the most to hide.
RE: “It’s not a matter of wanting him to commit adultery or not. . . . Perhaps, however, he’ll be a bit more sensitive about the human condition when he complains about others moral failings.”
Heh.
Right — it’s about all those horrible and onerous “demands of the religious right [sic]”. Maybe they can be quiet. And stop being clear in their beliefs. Publicly. And stop pointing out any other little issues about other minor moral failings. ; > )
If only they could just stop believing and articulating publicly what they believe, John Wilkins would feel much better.
The same could be said, you know, for the conservatives in TEC. That would be nice too. They are also just so “demanding.”
Yes, I definitely think it would be much nicer if the “religious right [sic]” could cease believing as they believe and articulating it publicly. We leftists would all feel much much better. And then we would not have these embarrassing spectacles of people who articulate certain beliefs and then fail to live up to those beliefs.
It would be much better all around if we just eliminated the beliefs.
Priceless.
I don’t mind them being clear about their beliefs: god bless them. I also think that adultery is wrong, and I’m glad he does as well. I’m glad you do. We can both agree that adultery is wrong.
What I do not think is that adultery tells us much about how one governs.
I don’t mind people pointing out problems. It would be a problem, perhaps, if he was a bishop. But if you’d rather have a democrat who upholds a personal life more in tune with a conservative ideal (say, like Obama), rather than a governor who governs conservatively but has a randy private life, that’s up to you.
Say, do conservatives believe in redemption and forgiveness?
Yes!
Katherine, #55, I must disagree. He was, first of all, separated from his wife, so the trouble was already brewing. did his kids know that they were separated? Please.
Should a wife ever forgive a man who has been sleeping withsome other woman? Of course not. First time, shame on you; second time, shame on me. A man who will betray his marriage once and would have continued to do so if he hadn’t been caught? Would you forgive your husband this deceit? Would you trust him ever again?
What the Sanfords decide to do at this point is indeed everyone’s business because (a) the media have made it so and because (b) he is what is amusingly called a public servant. Should the aftermath of Clinton and whats-her-name have become a secret because it is nobody’s business? Surely you cannot believe that.
What was his proper course? Why, divorce and then, if he loved this woman, marriage. You may not like divorce. Neither do I. But it is better than deceit and betrayal.
Can he ever make amends? Maybe, if he has the courage and stamina. But to be accepted back into a house he has already left? I have a hard time believing that you yourself would find that an acceptable remedy. He made his bed. Now he lies in it. This is what freedom of the will posits as a necessary condition of its existence.
Do you wish me to argue,”Let him who is without sin throw the first stone?” Can you make that proposition stick? Are all those who have judged him – one way or another – all being unChristian? Should we all be non-judgmental and say, “Well he is human; he has erred; we too have erred; if we judge him we judge ourselves, so we should avoid all judgment?
Do conservatives believe in redemption and forgiveness? Sure, but tell me, Katherine, what price must he pay, and for how long, before he has earned this this reward?
And does adultery tell us anything about how a man governs? Well, does lying on his income tax tell us anything? Or driving drunk?
Or gambling? Or using drugs? No? Or letting your boyfriend use you apartment to run a male prostitution ring, as Barney Frank did? Does this REALLY tell us nothing?
Either we accept the consequences of our own wrongdoing or we don’t. If we do, God alone has the power to forgive and will forgive and show mercy. But I must ask you, Katherine, can he or should he ever forgive himself? Larry
#61: “Should a wife ever forgive a man who has been sleeping with some other woman? Of course not.” I hope, Larry, that you never commit some great sin, because by your lights you will be permanently beyond forgiveness by your family. I don’t say that Mrs. Sanford should forgive him, rather that she may opt to do so. It is up to her judgment as to his state of mind and willingness to be her husband and the father of their sons. I tell you, I know personally a woman who is the wife of a very prominent man who had a second-adolescence fling quite similar to Sanford’s. There was enormous pain, but he thought better of what he was doing, and they are reconciled, and their lives and those of their children are far better than they would have been had the divorce gone through. It’s not just the same; she will never look at him quite the way she did before, and that’s his lasting punishment.
“Should the aftermath of Clinton and whats-her-name have become a secret because it is nobody’s business? Surely you cannot believe that.” Clinton lied to a grand jury. Income tax evasion, prostitution, and the other problems you refer to are also illegal. You are confusing public consequences and private consequences. Sanford’s public consequence is the end of his political career, even if he serves out his term as governor. What happens to his private life depends upon his own behavior and his family’s decisions from here on out, and that part is not the public’s business.
“But I must ask you, Katherine, can he or should he ever forgive himself?” He’ll have a hard time ever forgiving himself, surely. He’s been a complete fool and has seriously injured the people who love him the most. I am certain that God will forgive him if he’s truly repentant. He will live the rest of his life, even if he turns himself around, with the knowledge that his wife and sons will never look at him in quite the same way. That’s a harsh punishment. He has the opportunity to demonstrate to those sons what a real man does when he really messes up in a big way. For the sons’ sake, and for Sanford’s, I hope he takes that opportunity.