You might want to remember what happened in American politics this week for a very long time.
I’m not talking about the spectacle of the remaining members of the Kennedy dynasty jumping on to the Barack Obama bandwagon (whatever you do, Senator, don’t give Teddy the keys). I’m not talking about the historic certainty now that John Edwards, the sole remaining white guy, has quit the race, that either Senator Obama or Senator Hillary Clinton will be the Democratic Party’s nominee. I’m not thinking about the Democrats at all.
I’m talking instead about the quiet revolution that has overthrown the old order in the Republican Party. We have witnessed nothing less than a bloodless coup this week that promises to have ramifications for America perhaps even larger than the prospect of a black or a woman president.
Delightful. The current trajectory of the Republicans is to become a party of irrelevance; only the kind of politics McCain offers has any future for it on a National level. We crave and need true leadership for the whole nation, not just one side or another.
Does any one really think that, faced with the [i]most[/i] liberal Senator (Obama), or the now-16th most liberal, since she voted “present” on a number of hot-button issues … that Republicans will refuse to vote for a man who typically ranks as the 55th to 70th most liberal Senator?
The biggest irony of a putative McCain presidency is that he would be the first (and only) president drawn from the Silent Generation (born 1925 to 1943), and if elected he would almost certainly shut down the Baby Boom at just two Presidents.
Interesting times, these. Maybe even “wicked,” eh? [Eph 5:16]
[b]he believes that America’s reputation has been badly damaged by the mistakes of the past few years – from Abu Ghraib to Guantanamo.[/b]
Atypical for a repub and good on him for seeing what others refused to see. “Hey guys, we’re America, we don’t torture people!” ^5 McCain. I won’t vote for him but I won’t be thoroughly demoralized if he wins.
McCain’s position on “water boarding” is unrealistic. When I went through Navy SERE training, the use of techniques that made the trainee feel the ‘complete sense of drowning’ was part of the curiculuum to prepare us for enemy interrogation if we became POWs.
It wasn’t pleasant, but it was NOT torture, except maybe for wimpy people.
Now, listening to or reading the remarks of +Schori or +Chane, that’s torture. Real torture.
#4 Well, I suppose he gained a strong opinion on the subject somewhere between Oct. 26, 1967 and March 15, 1973 which was not in his Nav Air training. He happens to differ from you.
Well #5., what the North Vietnamese did to him was far worse than water boarding.
Are you aware of how they treated him, how they deliberately denied him medical care, how they deliberately and greatly exacerbated and intensified the pain of his excruciatingly painful bodily injuries?
That wasn’t water boarding.
By the way, while I highly respect the fortitude that McCain displayed as a POW, that doesn’t make his opinion better than mine when it comes to water boarding.
I tend to agree with Rush on this one. If McCain is the nominee, Republicans(conservatives) are better off with a Dem in the White House. As a Californian, Arnold’s endorsement cemented my vote for anyone but McCain. Talk about a RINO.
You made a logical appeal to your training, I undid it by reminding folks of where McCain may have had equal if not more experience to form his opinion. About whose is better, well, I did take down your logical appeal to why you think he is in error …
My real question is if it’s Obama vs McCain in November, both party renegades, who will the true Democrats and Republican vote for?
It’s the SCOTUS that counts. Can you imagine what Clinton-appointed justices would be like?
[blockquote] he believes that America’s reputation has been badly damaged by the mistakes of the past few years – from Abu Ghraib to Guantanamo.
Atypical for a repub and good on him for seeing what others refused to see. “Hey guys, we’re America, we don’t torture people!†^5 McCain. I won’t vote for him but I won’t be thoroughly demoralized if he wins. [/blockquote]
He certainly is right here — as a non-American it is clear that these activities have damaged the moral credibility of the USA (most unfortunately — because it is on moral grounds that most of the rest of us follow the US in the first place). It is not possible to stand for “freedom” and then use torture (and that is how it is perceived whether it is or not); you can’t stand for “justice” and then fail to bring people before a court for years (especially when you then let some of the go without any sort of charge); you can’t stand for “peace” and then lead an invasion (however justified).
Somehow America needs to regain its moral credibility — for all our sakes.
Somehow America needs to regain its moral credibility—for all our sakes.
This responsibility belongs to all nations and can be said about most of them, not just the US.
We are in a war. War is humanly created chaos.
Here’s a hypothetical.
I am a unit commander let’s say of ten patrol boats. One of my boats has already been captured by the enemy and they threatened to behead my sailors in its crew and then they committed the act.
Now a second one of my patrol boats has been captured and the enemy has again stated that they will murder my sailors. I also have very good intelligence that the Iraqi officer serving with our patrol boat unit knows where my sailors are being held and is complicit in their capture. My intelligence tells me that I have two hours to act before the executions will take place. There are no other friendly forces ‘in place’ to help within that time frame, but I, with my eight remaining patrol boats have a good chance of rescuing the sailors if I can extract the essential information from the Iraqi officers within the next half-hour.
I have the Iraqi officer in hand cuffs, I have a bucket of water and some wet towels.
What should I do? What is the humane course of action? What is the moral course of action?
I have a really good idea: Let’s stop bashing the USA. We aren’t perfect but we try harder than any nation in the history of the world. (think Roman Empire, Japanese/Nazi Empire, Soviet Empire). Those of you overseas are living in comaprative freedom because people like Anglican First were out in the real world, in harm’s way keeping you safe, while Americ’s nulcelar umbrella kept the Russians off your collective doorsteps. This is not a defense of waterboarding, but if you want to bash someone, bash the fundamentalist Muslims who blew up the World Trade Centers, tortured and beheaded Americans, etc., etc., etc. I’d be a heck of a lot more worried about Iran, China and Russia than I would about the USA.
http://www.ncccusa.org/news/060611nytad.html
Torture violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions, in their highest ideals, hold dear. It degrades everyone involved – policy makers, perpetrators and victims. It contradicts our nation’s most cherished values. Any policies that permit torture and inhumane treatment are shocking and morally intolerable.
Nothing less is at stake in the torture abuse crisis than the soul of our nation. What does it signify if torture is condemned in word but allowed in deed?
Let America abolish torture now – without exceptions.
Endorsed by conservative, moderate and liberal leaders.
I have a really good idea: Let’s stop bashing the USA. We aren’t perfect but we try harder than any nation in the history of the world. Speaking out against wrong is not bashing the USA. A real patriot will speak out and allow others to do the same.
#15. As to torture, I concur. I don’t tremember sanctioning torture in my post or at any time in my entire life.
I think we all agree that torture is wrong. There may be times that it is the lesser evil available (as in the “ticking bomb” scenario or the one Anglican First mentioned), but it is still wrong.
The question comes down to defining torture. We all agree that physical harm (such as cutting or breaking bones or chopping off fingers or electrocutions etc.) or mutilation is torture. How about sleep deprivation or psychological manipulation? How about simulated torture where a person is shown another “inmate” (who is actually only acting and not being harmed) being tortured and then hooked up to a similar device? How about keeping a room too cold or too warm (say 60 or 95 degrees)? Stress positions (forcing a person to stand for several hours)?
Waterboarding tends to be one of those gray areas where the pressure is psychological rather than physical.
I agree that the US needs to recover its moral authority, but I don’t think that it lost that moral authority in the last 8 years. I believe it lost that authority when it decided that it was OK to coddle dictators and tyrants in the name of realpolitik.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
“… you can’t stand for “peace†and then lead an invasion (however justified).”
Margaret, remember that the next time someone tells you that Islam is a religion of peace!
Tikvah
BTW, will someone please define “torture?”
Thanks,
T
I am all done voting for RINOs. I am voting for Ron Paul or Mike Huckabee. If the Republicans lose the social conservative vote, they will never win a national election. By their choice of lead candidates [Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, and Mitt Romney] they have signaled that they think they have the social conservatives in their pocket. They think [I have actually heard them say this] that social conservatives don’t have anywhere else to go.
News flash to the Republican leadership: social conservatives will actually vote against their own economic interests to ensure that their social agenda wins [Ohio ring any bells?]. By the same token, if their agenda isn’t being put forward, they aren’t likely to vote Republican.
Giuliani is a flat out social liberal who is pro-abortion, pro gay marriage, pro gun control, pro illegal immigration, etc.
McCain has had the same socially liberal views [some are now evolved just in time for the election] and has also publicly expressed contempt for social conservatives.
Romney has also had the same socially liberal views that have also “evolved†just in time for election.
Mike Huckabee is pretty good except for the illegal immigration issue, which is a pretty big issue.
I have already told the RNC fundraisers to talk to the NRA if they want any of my money. If the Republicans keep putting up social liberals for candidates, I will stop being a Republican. The current crop of neo-cons has just about ruined the party. I held my nose and voted for Bush Sr. I did it again for his son…in the vain hope that half a loaf was better than no loaf. I will start fasting before I do that again.
#19, The definition varies depending on who does the “torturing.” If it’s non-Westerners, it’s things like purpsoeful infliction of physical injury. If it’s Americans, I think only giving the “victim” regular cable instead of HD counts.
Republicans’ core values are strong defence and frugal use of the peoples’ money. Different Republicans hold different positions on various social issues, and we fuss with each other about who’s right, but most of us trust the process by which our nominees are chosen.
Tom Rightmyer, Republican precinct judge in Asheville Precinct 11, NC
I really don’t understand why so many people are acting like there is no viable Republican candidate for the presidency???? Ron Paul is the Republican and everyone else’s dream candidate. If I’m not mistaken, he has raised the most money in the past 2 or 3 quarters then any of the other Republican candidates. He actually holds the record for the largest amount raised in a quarter for a political campaign.
He has never voted to raise taxes
He is against the private Federal Reserve which prints our fiat “worthless†paper currency.
He is for lower taxes and fiscal responsibility
He is for America retaining its national sovereignty
He is against open borders and illegal immigration
He is against the Iraq war and he is for bringing our troops home.
He is pro second amendment
He is pro Constitution!
I could go on and on, but you should read his position papers at his campaign website. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
Of course, the globalist establishment is afraid of RP because his positions are popular with nearly every group. He is attracting people of all races, ethnicities and political backgrounds. If the playing field was level, Ron Paul would win every election by a landslide. The mainstream media has been cheating RP at every opportunity with electronic voting machine fraud in NH (where the recount is finding major discrepancies), SC and Florida. Also, when RP wins second place as he did in Nevada and Louisiana (actually, the Paul campaign is disputing the results in LA. There is evidence that he came in first place), there is NO media coverage. Also, during the debates, RP is asked 1/3 of the questions and has 1/3 of the speaking time. In the last debate, RP on got to speak for 7 minutes and was asked 5 questions!!! The other three candidates spoke for over 21 minutes each and were asked more than 16 questions! This has happened in the last 3 debates. The good side to the sham political system is that more and more people are waking up to what is really going on in America. That’s why Ron Paul continues to grow in popularity.
-Vincent
#23-Vincent. I’ll try to answer your first question: Beause he’s a NUT JOB!!!
I asked a question in my entry (#13),
“What should I do? What is the humane course of action? What is the moral course of action? ”
Does anyone have an answer to this question or is it ‘another tree falling in the forest?’
[i] This elf reminds you that the thread is about politics, not torture. Please return to the thread. [/i]
AF, #25, politics is just this way. Some unworthy weasel political type of whatever political persuasion gets asked a question and comes back with blather, BS or blatiudes (I know it’s supposed to start with a ‘p’, but that didn’t rhyme). So, you must understand (and, of course, you do understand) that our kinfolk of the nobler and purer sort, just like the political worthies (?) they get all puddly over, exalt in making grand and fine pronouncements that are theoretically and academically just so, so proper. They, of course, have never been there, done that and got the T-shirt, so to speak. (And I know all about McCain. He’s been running on his POW status for nearly 40 years. Getting caught by the bad guys can not be a sympathy ticket to the White House all by itself. If he wants to run it through that filter, the bottom line is he got shot down and was captured. Not exactly a success story though I am proud of his behavior in captivity. That one aspect is more than praiseworthy, but still not a WH qualifier.) For the vast majority of them, all though they would never admit it, they secretly, hopefully pray that better men than they could ever hope to be will come to their rescue if the stuff hits the fan, because they know they don’t and never will pack the gear to protect kith and kin themselves. Right now they are just thinking your hypothetical followed by your quite logical question is all stacked in your favor and is thus it is just so unfair of you to ask them to answer it that they will just think beautiful thoughts and hope you go away.
I do not agree with every position McCain has held over his service as senator. I think McCain-Feingold was an absolute disaster.
When I compare McCain’s positions on national security, the role of government vis a vis the role of private enterprise, and the growth of government with that of Senators Clinton and Obama, I find I have more in common with him than with them.
I’d rather have some of what I want than none at all! I cannot abide the notion of Bill Clinton in the White House for another four or eight years.
I will vote for John McCain. My reasons may not make sense to some, but here they are.
I am a Viet Nam veteran. I still feel some bitterness over the manner of our departure from that conflict, and a bit of a sense of betrayal. We left friends and allies to the tender mercies of the Communists. We betrayed the trust they placed in us.
After Operation Desert Storm, we encouraged Iraqis to rise up and topple Sadam. When they did, we stood by and let his helicopter gunships massacre the marsh Arabs. Again, we betrayed those who put their trust in us.
The world is an increasingly dangerous place, and our stature as the leader of the free world, and as a reliable ally has been badly damaged. This must change! Of the possible candidates, honorable persons all, only McCain posseses the degree of integrity and honor to restore this country’s position as the moral leader of the free world.
#25
Crash snap snap boom.
I heard the tree fall.
I get lost in all this American Christian political discussion. We have so long equated our participation in the state and its military with a religious duty that we actually believe it is.
I do not know how to begin to answer your question because you do not give the more important information; what should you do as a what?
As an atheist?
A theist?
An Anglican?
As someone who wants nothing more than to emulate the life of Christ?
As someone participating in the world in the way you describe in the commander, the answer is clear, take a chance and torture the information out of the Iraqi officer. If he is a man of honor in the moral universe you are already operating, he will give you nothing. If he has been trained to resist the illusion of water boarding you might pull out his fingernails if you like, you have already chosen a path of war; to live and die by the sword. So has the Iraqi officer. You are equals in this regaurd.
On another note: Your scenario is altogether too abstract. The cases involving water boarding or other soft torture methods do not only occur in such ideal and emotionally charged settings. From some of the footage we have seen they sometimes occur just for the fun of it. Further, the ‘intelligence’ that interrogated has anything to give may be faulty.
In the same way that I wish progressives would stop thinking their reworking of the faith is a boon from the Holy Spirit, I wish some traditional believers would asses their deep commitments against the demanding instruction of our Lord.
In Christ
Scott
Scott said:
“From some of the footage we have seen they sometimes occur just for the fun of it.”
Scott, that is total BRAVO SIERRA.
The people who did that for fun were charged and convicted, once again proving that the US Military is more moral than most elements of our society.
My two cents: McCain is a social conservative and a RINO on all the other issues. I question his commitment to appoint appropriate judges and Suprem Court Justices because strict constructionist judges are exactly the ones who might overturn his beloved campaign finance “reform,” which is such a mess. Huckabee, also, is a RINO on all but the life issues. Until Ron Paul clearly diassociates himself from some of the repellent fringe groups who are raising a lot of money for him, I refuse to consider him a viable candidate even as a libertarian. A McCain nomination will be a clear win for the old RINO establishment. A Romney win will be a qualified win for the party’s conservative establishment. My choice? Romney.
I’d vote for McCain in the general election simply because he might veto some spending bills, something Bush couldn’t bring himself to do. Otherwise, he’s Bush all over again, minus the tax cuts, which McCain has been against, but still better than either Obama or the Clintons.
I am not sure what we are expecting from politicians. Some govern less in some ways more in others. Should we vote for one that will give us more in our pockets or more security? What if God has something altogether different in mind? Are we patriots of our country first and Christians second, or are we Christians who happen to live in this country?
Stevejax:
How is Ron Paul a nut job? Please explain.
What I do know is that if the Republicans choose any other candidate as the republican nominee, Hillary will win. Ron Paul is the only candidate that can beat Hillary. McCain can’t do it. He is a gun grabber, pro open borders, connected to the mob, lied about his time being “captive†in Vietnam and he is a part of the Keating Five fiasco. McCain was the Keating Six, but he was the one who didn’t go to jail.
Clearly the “powers that be†want a change in Washington and a Democrat will be in office in for the next four or eight years. Both parties are owned by the same globalist backers so it really doesn’t matter who gets in office. The results are going to be the same. Again Ron Paul is the only candidate that isn’t establishment owned. Could he be bought off? Perhaps. But, as of now, he is the best chance and may be the last chance we have at turning things around in America before we slip in irreversible tyranny and economic collapse.
-Vincent
McCain may or may not appoint judges on the order of Sandra Day O’Connor or David Souter. Or he may appoint Alitos and Roberts. We know the kind of judges Hillary Clinton will appoint. The next election is not just about 4 years, it’s about the Supreme Court (as noted above). I heard that the next president could well appoint 3 judges to the court.
So cry all you like about McCain, but NO! Republicans will not be better off with a Democrat in the White House, other than the pro-choice Republicans, of course.
[i] #24 and $34: Please don’t veer this thread off topic with a discussion of another candidate. [/i]
[i] Comment deleted. Commenter politicking for another candidate. [/i]
McCain’s personal narrative and ability to work across party lines is admirable to me.