“To say we are going to have two provinces, two sets of churches in the same geographic region because of theological or political differences … could have ramifications not just for us but for the rest of the Communion,” says [the Rev.] Canon [Charles] Robertson.
The debate over homosexuality and biblical authority has long spurred talk of schism. Many provinces have “impaired” or “broken” ties with the Episcopal Church over such issues. But last summer, traditionalists held a Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) in Jerusalem and declared that, rather than split from the Communion, they were forming an orthodox fellowship within it. They urged formation of the new province in North America.
“Paradoxically, it may seem as though this step is a division, but it is really to help us not to divide by giving us more flexibility,” says Archbishop Jensen, secretary for GAFCON’s leadership council. He spoke by phone as a “close observer,” not officially for the council.
“To say we are going to have two provinces, two sets of churches in the same geographic region because of theological or political differences … could have ramifications not just for us but for the rest of the Communion,” says [the Rev.] Canon [Charles] Robertson.
To say it is one thing. For it tio be recognized by ++Cantaur is quite another. My understanding (although from posters and not from the leadership of this group) is that recognition by other Primates is all that they are looking for. I wonder if the other Primates will recognize the alternative as the sole Provincial presence and fully break ties with TEC in overlapping Dioceses.
Who knows the difference between the various Lutheran Synods and Presbyterian affiliates, other than Lutherans or Presbyterians? Or Southern Baptists and other, non-Southern Baptists? I don’t and (I’m guessing here) that most other outsiders to those denominations don’t either. My guess is also that a similar blurring of the lines would likely occur if a separate province came to pass. What did those divisions do to those denominations?
“The Archbishop of Canterbury has been silent so far on the recent developments.”
Advent – a time for writing all those letters and cards to your friends.
RE: “Who knows the difference between the various Lutheran Synods and Presbyterian affiliates, other than Lutherans or Presbyterians?”
I do [she squeaked].
Off the top of my head with no googling there is the PCUSA church — the mainline liberal church, which also has a large and thriving group like the Network, only much much bigger. Then there is the PCA church which started when the PCUSA church began to be perceived as going radically south. It is quite conservative. There is also the old ARP church — which was not a split, but a unique oceanic-gift to the US from the late 1800s. Then there is the OPC — a little more conservative than the PCA. There is now the EPC church, which is more “liberal” than the PCA — but still actually Christian — and it is currently scarfing up the current “leavers” from the PCUSA church, to the ire of same.
The two main Lutheran denominations are the ELCA — liberal mainline but actually forming from the mistaken combination of two others — and the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church which is the conservative — quite conservative — split. It suffers, it seems, from a “failure to thrive.”
Of all of these, I see the PCA and the EPC as growing denominations. Both have established strong identities and excellent training. If I were to guess the “mainline” 75 years from now, I would guess that one or both of these will be included.
PS: I have not included several smaller entities. OPC is actually quite small and I think will not grow for various theological reasons that I won’t go into.
Um, Sarah, you and I are the vast minority. Dallasite has a very valid point. Most average, every-day people in the US have no idea what “Episcopal” means or “Anglican.”
When you begin with, “Once upon a time, there was Henry VIII…” people immediately say “Oh, Church of England.”
The same will apply with multiple provinces.
Re: “CCP leaders hope the constitutional step toward unity will encourage more US conservatives to leave TEC and join them. A few conservative leaders will be watching, says Dr. Harmon, to see how CCP pulls together and how the Communion responds.”
Hum, few conservatives watching to see how CCP pull together……
Waiting and watching while others are REALLY DOING the heavy lifting.
Is it fair that some conservatives are not ACTIVELY and OPENLY fighting with fellow conservatives in setting up this new province?
Fr. Kingsley Jon-Ubabuco
Arlington, Texas
“Is it fair that some conservatives are not ACTIVELY and OPENLY fighting with fellow conservatives in setting up this new province?”
Hmmm.
#7? Many conservatives don’t think that a new province is the best route. Your comment seems to indicate an underlying jealousy maybe?
Re: #9
Jealousy??????
Jealous of what?
Jealous of cowardice?
Jealous of lack of guts?
Jealous of fence-sitting?
I don’t know how I can possibly be jealous of something, some action/inaction that is making me sick. Yes, I am sick with some of what has happened and is happening with those who had identified with the conservatives in this matter.
I have not forgotten how about two thousands of us stood together at Plano’s “A Place to Stand” in 2003 and TOTALLY condemned was happening in the ECUSA and in Canada.
Now where are those two thousand bishops, priests and deacons? A good number are now attacking those of us who are still saying NO to the apostates in TEc and are ACTUALLY doing something positive about the situation.
I am not jealous of the wait-and-see attitude of some of our fellow conservatives. In truth, I am rather disappointed, to say the least.
Fr. Kingsley Jon-Ubabuco
Arlington, Texas
Kingsley+
I am assuming from your posts that you have left the Diocese of Dallas. So do you identify +Stanton or +Lambert (or even +McPherson-canon to the Ordinary at that time) as those making you sick? Is there no room for “fighting from the inside” in your view?
RE: “Waiting and watching while others are REALLY DOING the heavy lifting. Is it fair that some conservatives are not ACTIVELY and OPENLY fighting with fellow conservatives in setting up this new province?”
Wow — one has to laugh at that one.
“Waiting and watching while others are REALLY DOING the heavy lifting. Is it fair that some conservatives are not ACTIVELY and OPENLY fighting with fellow conservative [Episcopalians] in [resisting the heresies of TEC but are instead leaving the battlefield]?
RE: “Now where are those two thousand bishops, priests and deacons?”
We’re over here in TEC — where we were at Plano too.
RE: “A good number are now attacking those of us who are still saying NO to the apostates in TEc and are ACTUALLY doing something positive about the situation.”
A good number are over here in TEC doing something positive about the situation. But it appears that a good number of others are simply bloviating and triumphing about something [i]they deem[/i] to be positive but which some others have rejected.
I speak with tongue in cheek above — and yes, it’s easy to mock those kinds of comments.
But I’m happy for the new Anglican entity that is being formed. I don’t begrudge people leaving one bit. And I wish them well. But I want no part in what they are doing. The idea that I’m passively sitting back while other noble souls are “doing all the heavy lifting” in producing the Great Solution is . . . fantasy.
I have more important things to do than enter into a fruitless debate with Sarah about who is doing the “heavy lifting.” Everyone knows the answer to this: “We are.” (Who the we are in “we are” will, of course, vary with the speaker, but we all know who “we” are.)
More important, Sarah has shown a decidedly celtophile prejudice in her description of the various “Presbyterian” bodies. She has either forgotten or deliberately [far more likely!] chosen to ignore the large body of Dutch followers of the Genevan settlement who have turned Grand Rapids, Michigan into a Calvinist paradise. I refer to those numerous church bodies (also “presbyterian” in polity) who generally refer to themselves as “Reformed,” chief of which is the RCA (Reformed Church in America). This group has blessed the church with such profound anti-Pelagian thinkers as Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller, but also lesser lights like the philosophers Alvin Plantinga and Nicholas Wolterstorff. Their two chief educational institutions are Hope College and Calvin College.
Can anyone name the lesser known “Reformed” churches?
For extra credit:
What is “Reformed epistemology”?
What is “Curley’s bribe”?
RE: “Everyone knows the answer to this: “We are.—
No — WE ARE!!!
Better yet — [i]I am[/i] doing all the Heavy Lifting of the Great Solution. ; > )
Seriously, I had not realized that the RCA was a Presbyterian affiliate . . .
I do enjoy Plantinga but I am somewhat daunted that with him are Peale and Schuller. ; < (
Re: Brian from T19 #11 – “I am assuming from your posts that you have left the Diocese of Dallas. So do you identify +Stanton or +Lambert (or even +McPherson-canon to the Ordinary at that time) as those making you sick? Is there no room for “fighting from the inside†in your view?”
Brian, I never was in the Diocese of Dallas as a priest or a parishioner. My home diocese was North Carolina and I am now a priest-in-good-standing in the Diocese of of Fort Worth, a bona fide Diocese in the Anglican Province of the Southern Cone.
I was at the Plano Conference in 2003 from Sewanee.
Having said all that, regarding the names you mentioned and all others, I say, if the biretta or the miter fits, wear.
On “fighting from the insideâ€, I, like most others, don’t see any reasonable indication that TEc is taking, or is ever going to take the “inside-fighters” with any level of seriousness or respect.
If anyone really wants to “fight”, inside TEc is not the best place to be, considering whom and what we are dealing with here and now. My two cents.
Fr. Kingsley Jon-Ubabuco
Arlington, TX
[blockquote]Seriously, I had not realized that the RCA was a Presbyterian affiliate . . .[/blockquote]
Well, not with a capital “P,” no. But they’re different franchises selling the same product–sort of like the Greek and Russian Orthodox, or the Scandinavian and German Lutherans.