This is straightforward and very well done. There is also a clear offer of a new church home to the orthodox in ELCA. I continue to follow this with interest.
My guess is that [url=http://www.wordalone.org/]Word Alone[/url] is about to start an expansion phase in ministry and the LCMS will begin to taking on refugees fleeing for safe harbor. Which might cause things to get a little rocky inside the LCMS for a time.
Well, maybe LCMS won’t be just a church home to the orthodox in ELCA: this is a reasonable alternative for the fleeing in orthodox in the Episcopal Church also (assuming LCMS’s rigid “close” communion can make room for Anglicans). As for ELCA, one hopes the orthodox don’t based on this vote abandon the denomination, as that would simply increase the number of those supporting changes in the church’s teaching, and make what revisionists hope will be a done deal just that. They can learn from us in that regard.
One aspect of our constitution is that ELCA congregations are free to leave to another Lutheran denomination. There are several ways to do that if one is seeking to end up outside and in either a completely different (non-Lutheran) denomination or non denominational. I won’t go into that here, but we have a great deal of latitude when it comes to where we might go.
I haven’t made any moves to go because the policy hasn’t yet officially changed. Now, that may seem kinda wimpy, but OTOH I’ll be damned if I’ll just walk away and leave the resources of prior generations in the hands of those would use them to spread a false understanding of marriage and sexuality. Even if it’s only for the next two years, at least we can be a thorn in the side and hold darkness at bay for a little longer. But make no mistake, that darkness is rapidly covering all mainlines. I know it and you know it.
When coupled with most mainline’s lack of passion for mission in the first place, I can’t help but think God’s hand is already against these gatherings of churches. If the Holy Spirit is not calling and gathering a new people … well … what does that say about us that the Holy Spirit seems to be working elsewhere?
Readers of this thread might be interested in this (typically robust) comment and thread on the ELCA’s recent decision and its implications over at Touchstone Magazine’s “Mere Comments” blog:
MD Brian,
Your comment reflects my thoughts on why folks in faithful parishes in TEC should fight tooth and nail to retain their property. To do otherwise is a betrayal of the trust of prior generations of Christian Episcopalians and an abandonment of holy space to the Enemy.
Choosing to “not discipline” those clergy who are practicing homosexuals will have the same result it did in TEC: invite gay clergy into the fold and increase the voting base so that change can be effected in the denomination.
Regardless of what they call themselves, the Missouri Synod is really [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietist]Pietist[/url] not Lutheran. Rather like the relationship of the Methodists to the CoE (but at least the Methodists don’t use the word “Anglican” in the name of their denomination).
It’s risky to rely on Wikipedia, as I tell me students; indeed, I forbid them to cite it or use it for research papers. But what are we to think of your use of it, as you are 100% mistaken in your reading of the key paragraph:
“Pietism is considered the major influence that lead to the creation of the “Evangelical Church of the Union” in Prussia in 1817. Upset by the fact that he and his wife could not take communion at each other’s church, the King of Prussia ordered the Lutheran and Reformed churches in Prussia to unite; they took the name “Evangelical”, meaning simply “Protestant” in German, as a name both groups had previously identified with. This union movement spread through many German lands in the 1800s. Pietism, with its looser attitude toward confessional theology, had opened the churches to the possibility of uniting. Lutherans who claimed to be more confessionally-strict dissented from the union movement; many immigrated to the American Midwest and formed the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, and to Australia where they formed the Lutheran Church of Australia. (Many immigrants to American that agreed with the union movement formed German Evangelical congregations, later to be gathered as the Evangelical Synod of North America, which is now a part of the United Church of Christ.)”
which clearly states, as is historically true, that the Missouri Synod originated as a Confessional Lutheran reaction AGAINST Pietism.
I think that remedial reading classes are called for.
#10, But of course one would expect that reaction on a “reasserter” blog like T1:9. Since you lot see yourselves as a confessional reaction against TEC, it’s no wonder you’d sympathize with the LCMS against the ELCA.
[i]I think that remedial reading classes are called for.[/i]
As are remedial classes in good manners for you, sir (I realize that such suggestions are the equivalent of shouting into the wind here, but one must make the attempt on occasion).
“… one would expect that reaction on a “reasserter†blog like T1:9.”
One would, I suppose, expect truth to prevail over error on any blog, or medium, where the concern is with accuracy and truth, but in fact it does happen a good deal more on “reasserter” blogs than on “reappraiser” blogs, where the wish is often the father of the fantasy, and the fantasy passed off as fact.
And the suggestion for “remedial reading classes” is good manners, not bad, as anyone cam easily see who will spare a moment to compare your allegation about the LC-MS with the source from whence you seemingly fetched it.
#9-12, Platonian and William, I am no expert on historical theology, but when I read of pietism, what comes across to me is alot of law. When I read the webpages of the LCMS regarding its theology, what comes across to me is grace, grace and more grace.
I grew up in the Missouri Synod, and still have many relatives who are members. Whatever one might say about them, they are not Pietists. Now you want Pietists, come to the Great Plains states and the former ALC congregations. There you have Pietism!
This is straightforward and very well done. There is also a clear offer of a new church home to the orthodox in ELCA. I continue to follow this with interest.
It is good that Lutherans have clear alternatives to ELCA.
My guess is that [url=http://www.wordalone.org/]Word Alone[/url] is about to start an expansion phase in ministry and the LCMS will begin to taking on refugees fleeing for safe harbor. Which might cause things to get a little rocky inside the LCMS for a time.
Well, maybe LCMS won’t be just a church home to the orthodox in ELCA: this is a reasonable alternative for the fleeing in orthodox in the Episcopal Church also (assuming LCMS’s rigid “close” communion can make room for Anglicans). As for ELCA, one hopes the orthodox don’t based on this vote abandon the denomination, as that would simply increase the number of those supporting changes in the church’s teaching, and make what revisionists hope will be a done deal just that. They can learn from us in that regard.
One aspect of our constitution is that ELCA congregations are free to leave to another Lutheran denomination. There are several ways to do that if one is seeking to end up outside and in either a completely different (non-Lutheran) denomination or non denominational. I won’t go into that here, but we have a great deal of latitude when it comes to where we might go.
I haven’t made any moves to go because the policy hasn’t yet officially changed. Now, that may seem kinda wimpy, but OTOH I’ll be damned if I’ll just walk away and leave the resources of prior generations in the hands of those would use them to spread a false understanding of marriage and sexuality. Even if it’s only for the next two years, at least we can be a thorn in the side and hold darkness at bay for a little longer. But make no mistake, that darkness is rapidly covering all mainlines. I know it and you know it.
When coupled with most mainline’s lack of passion for mission in the first place, I can’t help but think God’s hand is already against these gatherings of churches. If the Holy Spirit is not calling and gathering a new people … well … what does that say about us that the Holy Spirit seems to be working elsewhere?
MD Brian
Readers of this thread might be interested in this (typically robust) comment and thread on the ELCA’s recent decision and its implications over at Touchstone Magazine’s “Mere Comments” blog:
http://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2007/08/the-elca-anothe.html#comments
MD Brian,
Your comment reflects my thoughts on why folks in faithful parishes in TEC should fight tooth and nail to retain their property. To do otherwise is a betrayal of the trust of prior generations of Christian Episcopalians and an abandonment of holy space to the Enemy.
Choosing to “not discipline” those clergy who are practicing homosexuals will have the same result it did in TEC: invite gay clergy into the fold and increase the voting base so that change can be effected in the denomination.
Regardless of what they call themselves, the Missouri Synod is really [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietist]Pietist[/url] not Lutheran. Rather like the relationship of the Methodists to the CoE (but at least the Methodists don’t use the word “Anglican” in the name of their denomination).
Re: #9,
It’s risky to rely on Wikipedia, as I tell me students; indeed, I forbid them to cite it or use it for research papers. But what are we to think of your use of it, as you are 100% mistaken in your reading of the key paragraph:
“Pietism is considered the major influence that lead to the creation of the “Evangelical Church of the Union” in Prussia in 1817. Upset by the fact that he and his wife could not take communion at each other’s church, the King of Prussia ordered the Lutheran and Reformed churches in Prussia to unite; they took the name “Evangelical”, meaning simply “Protestant” in German, as a name both groups had previously identified with. This union movement spread through many German lands in the 1800s. Pietism, with its looser attitude toward confessional theology, had opened the churches to the possibility of uniting. Lutherans who claimed to be more confessionally-strict dissented from the union movement; many immigrated to the American Midwest and formed the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, and to Australia where they formed the Lutheran Church of Australia. (Many immigrants to American that agreed with the union movement formed German Evangelical congregations, later to be gathered as the Evangelical Synod of North America, which is now a part of the United Church of Christ.)”
which clearly states, as is historically true, that the Missouri Synod originated as a Confessional Lutheran reaction AGAINST Pietism.
I think that remedial reading classes are called for.
#10, But of course one would expect that reaction on a “reasserter” blog like T1:9. Since you lot see yourselves as a confessional reaction against TEC, it’s no wonder you’d sympathize with the LCMS against the ELCA.
[i]I think that remedial reading classes are called for.[/i]
As are remedial classes in good manners for you, sir (I realize that such suggestions are the equivalent of shouting into the wind here, but one must make the attempt on occasion).
“… one would expect that reaction on a “reasserter†blog like T1:9.”
One would, I suppose, expect truth to prevail over error on any blog, or medium, where the concern is with accuracy and truth, but in fact it does happen a good deal more on “reasserter” blogs than on “reappraiser” blogs, where the wish is often the father of the fantasy, and the fantasy passed off as fact.
And the suggestion for “remedial reading classes” is good manners, not bad, as anyone cam easily see who will spare a moment to compare your allegation about the LC-MS with the source from whence you seemingly fetched it.
#9-12, Platonian and William, I am no expert on historical theology, but when I read of pietism, what comes across to me is alot of law. When I read the webpages of the LCMS regarding its theology, what comes across to me is grace, grace and more grace.
I grew up in the Missouri Synod, and still have many relatives who are members. Whatever one might say about them, they are not Pietists. Now you want Pietists, come to the Great Plains states and the former ALC congregations. There you have Pietism!