few months ago, I had dinner with a prominent Evangelical Christian who insists that Christians are “persecuted” in the USA. Although we had a friendly discussion ”” and he generously paid for my dinner ”” I did think he was exaggerating a bit. So I asked him two questions:
First, could he identify any country in the world where there is more religious freedom than in the USA?
He could not. Nor can I.
Second, could he name any time in the history of the United States when Evangelical Christians have had more religious freedom (and political influence) than they do now?
He could not. Nor can I….
Many Christians not exposed to or sufficiently aware of what truly is persecution are far too quick to claim they are persecuted. This diminishes the notion of persecution, and falsely equates mere negative social consequences with what is happening to Christians in places like the Sudan. Further, some Christians–undoubtedly thinking of the beatitudes–wish to claim the status of “blessed” for themselves, and actually engage in behavior that’s hardly effective for the Gospel, but which is very effective in getting them ostracized–ergo “persecuted” as they see it. Yes, there is prejudice against Christians; yes, there are often social consequences to those Christians who are bold in proclaiming their faith; yes, society is even hostile to Christianity in some ways. But to equate this with “persecution” is almost always hyperbole when viewed in the context of history (consider Perpetua, for example), and even in the context of our times. And surely pondering how persecuted we are is a rather unproductive distraction from the work of the Kingdom that must be done, irrespective of persecution.
Agreed. The fact of the matter is that we have tremendous religious freedom with which to proclaim the Gospel, and yet we do not utilize it as we should. In general (I know I am guilty of this in my own life), we as American Christians are like the servant who buries the talents in the ground. There may be more than a few pockets of resistance, but I write this post from my quite safe apartment which is located on the campus of an evangelical seminary. That is far more than many of our persecuted brothers and sisters can say.
Christians are discriminated against, maybe even persecuted, in the Episcopal Chruch–at least they are in my diocese.
Oh for Pete’s Sake, Mr. Gunn. Christians in the US are not persecuted by the government, we’re persecuted by the media, and the screaming demands of secular culture. I’m certain what the “prominent Evengelical Christian” had in mind. Not the First Amendment.
David: It seems that you disagree with the stance of VaAnglican (#1). There may be instances of hostility to Christians in our country. However, aside from isolated events, to say in general that Christians in the Episcopal church are persecuted in general is an overstatement and very disrespectful to our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world who are systematically persecuted every day. While the Lord tarries, there will always be resistance to the Gospel wherever it is preached and even ill will towards those who preach it. Let us receive this resistance and ill will in thanksgiving that we enjoy the freedom that we do in the United States, and let this encourage us to preach the Gospel all the more. Let us also not complain about such resistance to the Gospel, but rejoice in thanksgiving that in some small, minute way we may share in the sufferings of Christ (Philippians 3:10).
Hostility, yes, that is a better word than ‘persecution’. One of the many theories of the decline of the church in the U.S. (and indeed the West in general) is the LACK of persecution.
The church is complacent, comfortable, and falling asleep. (what Keith Green termed “Asleep in the Light”), and thus we don’t have any outside force to keep us faithful. where there is persecution — Africa, China, etc. — the Church is growing.
Time to re-read “the Screwtape Letters” I think.
Colorado–Three things. First–as an orthodox Christian I have been totally marginalized by my bishop and rector. Second–I do not compare my plight with people who are actually persecuted for the faith. I know what is going on out there in the real world. I specifically chose the word “discriminated” so no one would think I was comparing myself to a martyr. Third–lighten up. It was supposed to evoke a chuckle (ironic humor). One of the things I have found in this crisis is that alot of people are upset, but almost no one has a sense of humor anymore. I’m just trying to do my little part.
David: I’m sorry for misunderstanding you; it did not immediately strike me that your post was to be read tongue-in-cheek.
David, I think you are being persecuted for your faith. I know I am, by the indifference of my rector. I believe in Church. I need Church. I don’t believe that I can work my faith out in a vacuum. My traditional beliefs are not being provided for. We’re being treated like pariahs simply because we believe what our church taught us, our mothers, fathers, grandparents, and great-grandparents for the last several hundred years. Yet, we’re treated like second-class citizens because we haven’t gotten aboard the re-appraiser bandwagon who innovations are barely forty years old.
If this isn’t persecution (certainly psychological) then I don’t know what is.
And I’m sick of it.
who should be whose.
Denver Dude–No prob!
Biff (what a boffo moniker)–I’m sick of it too. Unfortunately, since I was once highly placed in the heirarchy of my diocese and TEC, I have no place to hide.
Cultural persecution is certainly a form of persecution, although ultimately not as dramatic as legal or physical persecution, it can still prove a dangerous obstacle to the Gospel.
No. 9 – Some concrete examples would be interesting.
In response to # 13 above, an example of cultural persecution would be depictions of religion in the media which were consistently hostile, ridiculing or negative. For example, here in the UK it is legendary how, the few references there are to Christianity in our ‘soaps’ show Christians as cuckoo: extremists, or simply batty. Chain-smoking Dot in Eastenders for example. Or the much-loved Vicar of Dibley which had mass audiences – yes, Dawn French’s character was loveable and huggable … but a buffoon. As for Catholic depictions, well we have Father Ted or Ballykissangel, where again the faith up for laughs. I could take the slapstick (and I do believe that a strong religion should be able to withstand and even enjoy satire) but it is the lack of any balancing picture that bothers me, showing people of Christian faith as generous, kind, loyal, good friends, wise counsellors, whatever. Not persecution in the obvious sense – but the steady drip drip of cynicism does take its toll. Many people also comment on how Islam by comparison gets reverential treatment.
I would have to say it isn’t persecution if you can find another welcoming place to worship God in a manner that makes sense to your faith and call to be a disciple. If my feelings aren’t validated at one parish, I can find another. Not so in other countries who don’t have this freedom.
Read Jesus in Beijing for starters. IMO, there is no true persecution in the United States. Tell me one person who has been imprisoned or tortured or executed for the Christian faith in the United States.
Re: Vicar of Dibley:
[i]yes, Dawn French’s character was loveable and huggable … but a buffoon.[/i]
and rationalized sex outside of marriage when it suited her (had a few ‘flings’ during the run of the show); addicted to drink and chocolate (binged on both); crude and crass; etc. I like the show, but it sure does not present the clergy in a good light. Her bishop wasn’t much better — total buffon — by the way, on the one occasion he was present for Hugo and Alice’s baby! Plus anyone who stood up for traditional Christianity, mainly David Horton, was seen as a hypocrite and usually in the wrong.
While America does have a tremendous amount of religious freedom, anything Christian (and Jewish) are coming under more and more attack. Freedom of religion has become freedom from religion (yeah, yeah, we’ve said it before).
1) For many years, St. Cloud, FL’s (near Kissimmee and Orlando)water tower had a cross on it. Mendelson v. City of St. Cloud put an end to that, even thought the town’s name’s roots were religious. We personally miss the cross when we drive through. Had it been a Star of David because the town was named in a like manner, or a Muslim symbol in a Muslim/Islamic named town, it would not have been a problem for us. Did we like it that it was a cross – yeah. This specific case has been cited in so many cases you would not believe.
2) In 1991 the American Civil Liberties Union, American Jewish Congress, and Americans United for Separation of Church and State sued San Francisco over its ownership of the cross on Mt. Davidson. After a long legal battle and loss at the California Supreme Court, the City auctioned 0.38 acres (1,538 square meter) of land, including the cross, to the highest bidder in 1997. The cross was sold to the Council of Armenian-American Organizations of Northern California, and has since served as a memorial of the 1915 Armenian genocide.
3. We’ve been employed by a company who disallow any Christian ornamentation or mention of Christianity of any kind while allowing everything else including pentagrams.
4. Ask the high school senior who was raked over the coals for mentioning Jesus at her graduation.
Will the time come here as it did for the communists in Russia when they retooled St. Petersburg into Leningrad?
How about the Gideons being arrested for handing out New Testaments on a sidewalk?
Lipsett & Raab (two political scientists of the 1970s) coined the term quondam complex. The quondam complex is when people [i]feel[/i] persecuted based on economic or physical dispossesion. US Christians are (by and large) neither wholly economically or physically dispossessed. The quondam complex has also been considered the litmus test for whether one is paranoid. For instance, if I constantly claim persecution, but evidence none of the qualities (physical or economic) which are required to be actually persecuted, then chances are I am politically or culturally paranoid. Because your Bishop doesn’t like you; or because you aren’t on speaking terms with the rector does not qualify you as a persecuted person in the general sense of the word.
#18. And if there is a fire at our parish, the city run fire department will show up to put it out. Students gather each year at the flag pole for prayer. I can walk down the street with a Bible if I choose. Nobody alerts the authorities when I bow my head to pray at Chili’s.
I hate to be flip, but this is not real persecution. The real issue is that most anything that annoys another religiously must be removed according to our legal system (not saying I agree…). There are more Christians here in the US than other religious faiths. Due to sheer numbers, we’ll have more opportunity to annoy. I’m sure a Muslim woman would be happy to tell you that she cannot wear a veil in her driver’s license picture.
Is it persecution when the state says no to a creche on the town square? I don’t think so….
But what we are seeing is the beginnings of public intolerance towards Christianity which may, if not challenged, eventually lead to full-out persecution. All it takes to topple a mountain is the steady chip-chip-chipping away at the base with a hammer and chisel.
“I don’t know what you all are talking about”, said the frog, sitting in a pot of 90 degree water over a low flame. “The water isn’t anywhere near to boiling yet.”
This country used to be based upon a strong religious heritage with Christianity being refenced freely by founding fathers accross the baord. Now we debate whether prayers can even be said in public forum and in neighboring Brittish born countries citing beliefs about homosexuality drawn from the Bible can get you thrown in jail.
No. We’re nowhere close. Sure. Whatever.
We may not yet have crossed the clear demarcation line here but we are certainly moving closer to it. I’d say “read the signs” but I fear illiteracy is too high.
No. 14 – Terry Tee – I agree with you that there is not only hostility but laughable ignorance about religion in general, and Christianity in particular, in the everyday media and in schools (including college), but I was asking specifically to Biff, no. 9 I believe, about persecution within the church (ECUSA I presume) itself. Thx.
23. Christopher Hathaway – You GOT it!
21. Peré Phil – glad you can gather ’round the flag pole once a YEAR to pray. The other 1/2 of L2 went to school up in New Yawk (UP-state, that is). In 1973-74 his prayer group had begum meeting in a study hall before school (with school permission to meet as a club). Later that year the prayer group was told that they could no longer meet in that room because of they were a Christian group and that violated the “separation of church and state”. A coven was given permission to now meet in that space. The prayer group then obtained “unofficial” permission to meet in the balcony of the auditorium (again before school). The coven complained and the prayer group was told that they could not meet on school property even as a club. The prayer group then met “unofficially” elsewhere. But the coven had permission to stay. In 1973-74.
Persecution doesn’t start as a hammer. If it did, we’d all rebel and jump on it in a moment. No, persecution begins slowly and secretly. TEC didn’t get into this mess overnight. It was little things that we let go in the name of “diversity”. You want to ignore that, fine. But you will be looking back in a few years and seeing what the rest of us have already been seeing for years. But it’s already too late now.
The reason Christians are not persecuted is that they are so unimportant. In America, being Christian has no consequences of any significance.Where Christianity does become important, as if the case with Bush, then the contempt and dislike burn very bright indeed.
Now, mind you, I think the President needs his head whacked for wearing his religion on his sleeve. And I also think that Romney will pay a serious penalty for being a Mormon. But still, this is not persecution properly so called, just contumely and condescension. LM
L2,
Guess it depends on your view of the world and the expectations of how others will respond. I’ve learned along the way that people repond positively when I am kind and gentle to them. If I’m asked I say it’s because I’m a Christian.
My faith was well known in my high school, some 15 years after your experience. I didn’t attend a high school group, but I know of many how were a part of Young Life. I was asked to give the invocation at my high school commencement, and was voted most likely to become a priest by my classmates (guess they got that one right).
Our culture isn’t particularly fond of Christians (who can blame them with the likes of our most famous brothers and sisters),but giving someone the cold up of kind words when they need it goes along way in breaking down those stereotypes.
And I would bet that there are 1,000 other places in the world where Christians have their lives in danger. We just hope the culture sees us as relevent. Maybe the 3rd World has the leg up on us there, because their faith has to be more real if they risk losing their lives.
I’m sorry, not being allowed to pray around a flag-pole is not persecution. The Vicar of Dibly is not persecution at all. You dishonor the memory of those who have actually suffered persecution when you suggest that Christian estadounidense in the U.S. are persecuted.
Christians in Pakistan, India, Iraq, China, El Salvador and parts of Africa are persecuted. You estadounidense are just whining because everything isn’t going your way.
YEs, but L2 is right:
“Persecution doesn’t start as a hammer. If it did, we’d all rebel and jump on it in a moment. No, persecution begins slowly and secretly.”
thus, what you see as not even being close to persecution, and it probably isn’t, but it is the first steps on that road.
We have given some examples, as others have, of persecution in the U.S.. Does it compare where Christians have been killed? No. Never said it did, nor did we imply it.
Peré Phil, no matter where you go or in any context – because we are dealing with humans – you will see people who exude or lack grace. That’s a given. Our point is that our freedom is precious and if not protected fiercely, it will not be ours for long. What were freedoms for us L2 as kids no longer exist today- even outside of a religious context. And freedoms our parents had no longer exist either. What was given up from then to now wasn’t an overnight experience – it was eroded over time. We could provide lots more examples, but don’t have the time nor the energy. We Americans (estadounidense as Padre Mickey likes put it) are blessed with what we have now – very blessed. But as with any “talent”, if it is not used properly the Lord can take it away.
29. libraryjim – exactly. Thanks and good night, all.
Today, September 17, the Orthodox Church remembers Egyptian bishops Peleus and Nilus. They were arrested for being Christian, along with 154 others, circa A.D. 307. This was done by Firmilian, governor of Palestine, under orders from Roman Emperor Galerius. Their eyes were gouged out and their tendons were cut. 100 of them were beheaded, and the rest were burned alive.
There are many other examples; the calendar has several for every day of the year. (And not all of them in antiquity).
By remaining ignorant of the saints, Protestants lose a lot. And it causes them to say silly things, like whine about how Christians are persecuted in America.
Wilfred, do you simply not understand libraryjim’s point? It really isn’t that complicated. If you want to rebut it go ahead, but throwing out the red herring of “oh yeah, here’s someone who had it worse so qwitcherbichin…” doesn’t really fly as an argument.
You got punched in the face? Big deal, I heard about a guy that got shot….
Wilfred, as has been pointed out we are in the early stages. Would you prefer that we wait? By American standards it is starting.
Wilfred, as a more concrete example, what about the Democrats implying that an orthodox Christian is ipso fact unsuited for the bench? Didn’t you hear? Alito is one of those Christofascists that wants to impose their beliefs on us… Or is a de facto religious test not “persecutiony” enough for you? If there are no lions involved just quit whining!
“qwitcherbichin” : Mr Cabbage, you have succintly captured the essence of my comment.
At every Orthodox service, Sundays & week-days, the priest announces which saints are being honored that day, & tells us something about them. I’ve been hearing this for 2 years now. Few of them died in comfortable circumstances. So when I read, as I did on this blog a few weeks ago, about some Anglican bishop moaning because he had been able to play golf only twice in the past 6 months, that is my reaction. Go tell that to Bishop Ignatius of Antioch. He was ripped apart by lions, for the amusement of the 2nd Century’s verson of the Hollywood crowd.
Ah, Hollywood. And parts of Academia. And the ACLU (subject of this posting): I have no doubt that the spirit which animates much (most?) of what they do is the Enemy of Christ. And we must oppose them.
But don’t complain to God about how hard our lot is. Turn over a new leaf, Mr Cabbage, and learn about the saints. Lettuce pray that all Protestants do.
Actually, I love and revere the saints as much as any good Christian should. However, I don’t rank the saints in holiness by the grislyness of their martyrdom. I also don’t use the example of the saints to belittle or excuse challenges Christians face today. I’m guessing the saints themselves wouldn’t say “qwitcherbichin” to a Christian facing an ever increasingly hostile and anti-christian social and political climate. That’s just not something a good christian would do, now is it?
#37 You’ve contorted the original question which was whether christians are generally a persecuted people in America. The answer of course is No. This is because that people can’t be “kind of persecuted” or “almost persecuted” –People either are or they aren’t. And, (to reference my earlier post) since US Christians do not experience economic dispossesion or physical threats b/c of their faith on any large scale, they most clearly are not.
Now, if you wish to say that in the future Christians are [i]likely[/i] to be persecuted in America because of “an ever increasingly hostile and anti-christian social and political environment” (your words-questionable though they are) that’s fine I guess. But it doesn’t make it so now since people are either persecuted or they aren’t. Besides the political science standard for persecution, a quick check of the dictionary tells you that US Christians are not currently persecuted. To claim so, is false and paranoid. It’s like claiming that there are 250 card carrying communists in the state department; then upon realizing that I can’t actually prove that they’re there, I draw attention away to communist sympathizers (or people that have supposedly sympathetic views & are not communists). It’s an intellectual sleight of hand that I don’t doubt was unintended.