Atlanta–One August night, two men walked into a popular restaurant attached to this city’s fanciest shopping mall. They sat at the bar, ordered drinks and pondered the menu. Two women stood behind them.
A bartender asked if they would mind offering their seats to the ladies. Yes, they would mind. Very much.
Angry words came next, then a federal court date and a claim for more than $3 million in damages.
“Dana Mason, who teaches second grade in Birmingham, says manners have been at the lowest level she has seen in her 36 years in the classroom. Parents who move South tell her they don’t want their children to learn to say ‘yes, sir’ or ‘yes, ma’am.’ Too demeaning, they say.”
I am trying to wrap my head around not being called on the carpet for not addressing grownups with titles of respect; for such a notion was unheard of in my rearing as well as in the rearing of my children.
All I can think is “Why bless their mamas’ hearts.”
That is because Atlanta is [b][i]NOT[/b][/i] the South. Just go there and listen to the accents you hear; mostly East Coast Mid-Atlantic, where manners died two generations ago. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the defendants were not Southerners.
I am sure the point of this article is correct. Maybe God will send another Wilberforce to campaign for the reformation of manners. But I must admit that the context “A bartender asked if they would mind offering their seats [at the bar] to the ladies” seems to go unnoticed. In a “polite society,” two ladies do not saddle up to a bar. The sword of equality cuts in both directions. When women want to act like men (sitting at a bar) and yet want to be treated as ladies (given seats) it seems helpful to ask which is the chicken and which is the egg?
Sorry #3, but I must disagree. I’ve often given up my barstool to a lady, whether she was being escorted by a gentleman or not.
And #2, you’re exactly right. Atlanta and the DC bedroom communities of Northern Virginia (and other places) are only Southern in geography, but no longer in culture. If you want the South in all of its courtesy or gentility you’ll have to go out into the countryside, smaller towns or to Charleston, though the Bluegrass region of my border state home is still a remarkably polite place.
#3, very good point. To this day I can not bring myself to take a seat at a bar if I am dining alone. With a companion I will sit at a bar if no table seats are available. But alone? At a bar? To sit down and drink? Heaven forbid.
Paula,
I agree that it isn’t really propre for a lady to sit at a bar alone, but that doesn’t remove the obligation from a gentleman to offer her his seat.
There was a book out by a professor at the University of Massachusettes a few years ago about defining the South. He had three basic definitions: (1) where Southern Baptists out number all other denominations; (2) Geographically from north of Orlando to Richmond, leaving metro Atlanta totally out of the mix, then up the Shenendoah valley, northwest to the Ohio River, but south of West Virginia, west to Arkansas and the Ozarks of southern Missouri and then Southwest to a line between Dallas and Ft. Worth, then southeast of Austin to north of Corpus Christi; (3) Anywhere barbecue is NOT a verb.
BTW–everytime we go to Atlanta, which is fairly often, as soon as we hear those accents we always quote Aunt Pitty Pat: “Oh Scarlet, Yankees in Atlanta–I just can’t beliveve it.” Or as Lewis Grizzard used to say, “if you miss those cheese steak sandwiches in New Jersey, Delta is ready when you are.”
David Keller, The gentleman from Massachusetts needs to take into account the Church of Christ. In many strongly Southern places, they outnumber the Baptists. They probably do here in my Texas city. (Most of them make the Baptists seem rather liberal!)
And why is he carving up Texas in that manner?
Long gone are the days when disputes could be politely resolved by a duel.
Jim,
Such was the popularity of duelling here in Kentucky that to this day anyone taking the oath for any elected office has to swear that he has never participated in a duel, whether as principal or second. There was a move afoot in a recent legislative session to abolish that requirement, but I don’t recall whether it passed or not.
I was commenting [i]somewhat[/i] in jest, although I have to say I did get a kick out of Zell Miller telling Chris Matthews during the 2004 political campaigns that he wished it was still permissible to challenge Matthews to a duel.
#9–Having grown up in Houston, I am assuming he thinks anything west or south of his line is the West, not the South. When I was growing up Austin was still Southern, but it’s become a little Atlanta now. My wife, who is from SC doesn’t think any of Texas is Southern! Now that you mention it, I think the good professor did talk about the C of C as you mention. it’s been at least 8 or 9 years since the book was out, and I can’t even recall the name of it right now.
I guess I should finally get around to changing my moniker from “In Texas†to “In Coloradoâ€. Last year the family and I moved from Texas to Colorado. My son, being raised in the southern culture of politeness, continued to address adults with “Yes, sir†and “No, sir†and so on. At our first 8th grade parent teacher conference, we actually had two teachers tell us there was something wrong with our son because they could not get him to stop saying “Yes, ma’am†and “No, ma’am†to them. My wife and I responded that if he didn’t address adults, and especially teachers, that way, then there would be something wrong with him.
One of the teachers finally came to some understanding that “sensitivity†and “diversity†meant understanding and respecting southern culture. This happened after the teacher was discussing a short story about a student in Asia, and the student addressed his teachers with “Teacher …â€. In the ensuing discussion over cultural differences and culture shock, my son raised his hand and said “I’ve experienced culture shock moving here to Colorado. In the culture I came from, it is a sign of respect to the teacher to say “Yes, ma’am†and “No, ma’amâ€. My son said the next couple of days, the rest of the class started saying that too. Sadly, it didn’t last more than a couple of days.
Our first high school conferences have been much better. The first thing we heard from all his teachers was “Your son is so polite, I which more students were that wayâ€.
I feel I must stand up for my adopted home. Atlanta has not entirely fallen to the savages. At least in my northwestern suburbs we still preserve a southern character, complete with courtesy. Though it is admitedly fairly easy to find a Yankee if you want one.
At least we’re not Miami. 😉
the way i see it feminism is to blame. those women, not ladies, wanted to be seen as equals in every way and reared their children that way. it’s no wonder that men have responded in kind.
it’s been a cultural sea change that has devastated our society and will continue for generations to come.
it’s done nothing to benefit the general female population imo.
“Manners also helped create the South’s famous “bless your heart†culture — a powerful way of seeming to be polite without being genuine”.
Yes, sadly I’ve seen a lot of this; and, for the record, you can categorize me as a “mess” if you want to; born mid-Atlantic, raised outside NYC, and married for two decades to a Tidewater Virginian; having lived in DE, MO, CA, NJ(this one defined me because I lived there for 15 formative years), FL, VA(Caroline co. AND Alexandria; don’t get my father-in-law started on the “Northern VA is not VA” argument… 🙂 ), MD, MA for seven years, and now Texas for nearly 5.
Politeness is not limited to the South, as I’ve met plenty of polite people in the North, and rudeness is surely not limited to the North. And plenty of Southern rudeness is not the result of Yankee transplants. Just because someone says something with “Ma’am” or “Sir” in front of it doesn’t mean it’s not a rude thing to say.
It is so ridiculous to think that there is something wrong with people who use “ma’am” and “sir”, wherever anyone lives. I don’t care where my kids live, or where they’re from–they’d better use ma’am, sir, please, thank you and excuse me, at the very least. And my son had better give up his seat to a lady, pay for dinner, and hold the door for her. I once watched him do the last thing for his math teacher last year, plus another teacher and her daughter. The latter two thanked him, the former walked through the door with her rude nose in the air, and my son is an A-student. I wonder what her excuse would be–I tend to think she hates anything that doesn’t wear skirts, but that’s just me. And she’s from TX, parts of which consider itself Southern, and parts which consider itself Western. I believe, though, that she’s someone who’d be rude wherever she is from, and there’s a lot of people out there like her. Luckily the good ones tend to balance her ilk out.
“Keepers of Southern civility maintain that manners will always be a defining characteristic of the region”.
And I’ve seen them not be defining characteristics of some Southern regions, and be defining characteristics in places not the South. In essence, perhaps it is silly to generalize.
One of my dear friends(God rest his soul), a fantastic psychologist, told me in one of our last conversations that the Harvard types had recently published a great article(I wished he could have given me the citation, but could not) about things like e-mail, globalization, texting, etc., giving people a sort of “social autism” where they were losing the ability to speak politely face-to-face. And they are ruder in e-mail and texts than they ever would be to someone’s face. To be frank, they’re(psych types) going to watch the trend closely because they’re very worried about it. Society needs to make effort to still have polite, personal contact, despite all the technology available to us. Personally, I try very hard to not use technology as anything but convenience–like texting my friend when I can’t reach her on the phone–but that sort of thing is not a substitute for talking to her when either she needs it or I need it. And people should make effort to be polite at all times, no matter what mode of communication they’re using.
To close on something humorous, another friend is also an eminent PhD-prepared therapist. And his credentials are truly something else, as he is certified to precept PhD students for ALL sorts of therapy–family, adolescent, and individual male/female adults. About the only thing he doesn’t care for is very small children. He’s from TX, but once went to a roundtable discussion in NY where the rude/polite Northern/Southern thing got analyzed by some seriously educated, experienced people. And the best thing they came up with was that all the Southerners thought the Yankees were rude, and all the Yankees thought the Southerners were hypocrites. Go figure… :-/
#17, Bookworm; You from Joisey?? Rilly?! What exit??
This is a marvelous thread, if a bit OT from the post. I surmise that the NYT wanted readers to wax indignant about the fact that in the South someone of a minority race was asked to suppress his own claim to the dignity of being seated at the bar in favor of a member of the oppressing race, and to perhaps become fired up about injustice on learning that the Tavern won its case. That is what the NYT does.
Having been raised upstate in NYS in a family where our mother imparted her considerable Southern breeding, I became acutely aware of all these differences, but unable to grasp their wider implications until I actually lived outside the US. When our son at age 6 in Australia learned to address his married teacher as ‘Mistress Greenland’ I thought it was an anachronism that would get him ridiculed – but now 21, he has not lost his instilled sensibility that respect, with or without titular address, is key to personal relationships and I am very glad, though it may get him ridiculed in some situations. Americans in and outside the South need to know that worldwide, New Yorkers are known foremost for their [i]bad manners[/i], nothing else. If an American is treated well in the Commonwealth it is because they are so interested in the money they think you have, they’ve suspended their expectations of respectful personal communication. One with a North American accent is always asked, “Are you Canadian?”, because to ask “Are you American?” would insult any Canadian. And the joke I’ve heard repeatedly about the Israeli who says, “What is ‘excuse me’?” I had never heard in the US, oddly enough.
People outside the US hate the bad manners we export, people. Thank goodness Southerners are endeavoring to correct that deficit.
I’ve been enjoying discovering the South a bit for the past 18 months as I now have my US residence in Charlotte. (Although I’ve only lived there about 8 weeks during two short home leaves from my work here in Africa.)
Having grown up in NJ (exit 151 FYI TACit), then moving to Baltimore / D.C., and then landing in South Florida (Palm Beach Co.), I definitely noticed a significant difference in manners & civility in Charlotte. I think I was most struck / surprised by the change in behavior in store parking lots at Christmastime. In NJ and South Florida (where NY/NJ license plates almost outnumber FL license plates some months, and Palm Beach Co. is jokingly called “the 6th borough” – with good reason!) fights over parking spaces at malls were a common occurrence and made Christmas shopping a dreaded chore. In Charlotte I was pleased to find regular courtesy, politeness and good cheer in parking lots and stores at Christmas. It was a real pleasure and I’m looking forward to continuing to get to know more of the “real” South.
P.S. Living in Charlotte has also got me experimenting with southern cuisine and during my recent home leave in August I had a lot of fun trying to create the perfect southern biscuits. I’ve definitely improved, but have a long way to go!! (I do, however, make scones that people tell me are “to die for!” so not all hope is lost.) Any biscuit-making tips from born & bred southern cooks here welcomed! 🙂
It really was meant just to provoke a laugh, #19 Karen, being something that a friend of my husband’s related to us once that made us guffaw, and so we’ve said it ever since.
In 20 years in Australia I could count on one hand the times I’ve seen fights over parking spots, though I can’t speak for the preponderance of the population, who live on the East Coast.
Since you also live outside the US I wonder if you’ve had similar experiences to ours? Perceptions may differ among regions of the globe.
Returning for visits, I’ve noticed the difference in public behavior between Charlotte (where I’ve connected flights several times) and e.g. NYC. The most gracious experience I ever had on an airline was after running, after 20+ hours of flying already, till almost my last breath to my 11PM USAir connection in Charlotte when my flight from LA landed late, 2-3 gate agents solicitously announcing my name, just kept running with my heavy bag and they helped me through the lounge and on board, then the attendant offered me a (desperately needed) drink of water almost as soon as I was seated in the full plane. One of those ‘cup of cold water’ (in His name) experiences, the like of which I can’t quite imagine happening out of NY…..
Much truth in what you say, Magnolia.
Hey TACit
In terms of how my living overseas affects my perceptions of manners & civility in the U.S., well, let’s just say, West African airports and roadways tend to be dominated by an “everyone for themselves mentality” or a living proof of Judges 17:6 “everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” Local roadways make the NJ Turnpike and the GS Parkway look like bastions of politeness and civility and good driving!!!
I laughed at the “what exit?” question as it is one I grew up with and there is much truth to it as well…, or at least there used to be. The population of NJ has spread out a lot in recent years with big booms in central Jersey and NW Jersey so there are more people off the beaten track of the GS Parkway or Turnpike corriders. (I-287 and I-78 opened up a lot of territory.) The Princeton area, for instance used to be surrounded by farms, but now most of those farms are housing developments.
And I like Charlotte’s airport alot. Sure beats flying out of Miami or JFK any day!
Off topic. Hey Karen, my wife like’s to tell people she married me for my biscuits and cornbread :). I learned from my mom (now 81 and still going strong), so I don’t use a written recipe, but I’ll give it a try. For biscuits, I use self-rising flour, some crisco (or lard, if you are brave enough), buttermilk, and the well seasoned iron skillet (you wipe out, but never, ever wash with soap). For a large iron skillet, set the oven at 450F, put about 1 tablespoon crisco in the skillet and put in the oven. For around 3 or 4 cups of self-rising flour, add anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 cup of crisco, cut in with pastry cutter or use hands, till well mixed. Add enough buttermilk to hold everything together, and mix and fold until you get a nice dough ball – do not over work or knead. I then flatten the dough out by hand on a good surface lightly dusted with flour. I then cut out the biscuits with a biscuit cutter (my mom used an old frozen orange juice can). Bring out the iron skillet with the now melted crisco, and place the biscuits in the skillet – one at a time, place one side down in the melted crisco, then turn over. Put in the oven, and a good oven should take 18 to 20 minutes, depending on how brown you want them (since I now live at 6,000 ft elevation, it takes 22 to 23 min at 460F). When done, take out and flip the skillet over onto a plate or serving dish. These freeze well, but of course, don’t taste quite the same as hot out of the oven.
Thanks In Texas! I’ve copied this to try next time I’m in the U.S.
To continue the off-topic biscuit tangent (elves, please be kind!!) One thing I learned over the summer was that there is a big difference in flour – there are “southern” brands like White Lily made with soft winter wheat and they produce an entirely different texture biscuit than an all-purpose flour like Gold Medal due to different gluten content. I’ve been fascinated to realize what a “science” good biscuit making really is!! One reason it’s such a challenge… there are a lot of variables even in a recipe that *seems* so simple (flour, buttermilk, leavening & fat – it should be a “cinch” but it’s not!)
Actually – getting back a bit closer to the topic of the post, one thing I’ve really been enjoying about discovering Charlotte and its environs is to discover that there really still *ARE* regional differences in the U.S. The New York metro area, the DC area and South Florida were all enough alike that I’d begun to sense that somehow the U.S. was losing regional “charm” or “flavor” for lack of a better word. Even though Charlotte is a big banking town, it is *SO* different from the NY area, it’s been a real refreshing change for me, and I’m looking forward to great fun in the years ahead in exploring the Carolinas and surrounding states whenever I’m in the U.S.
Some people will never forgive my Virginia spouse for marrying a Yankee girl; but, oh well. The unique thing in my neck of the woods is that I can serve you some fantastic Brooklyn meatballs with a side of cheese grits. 🙂
I’m sometimes amazed at the number of Jersey people who don’t find the “what exit” joke funny. I’ve always thought it was a scream; the first time I heard it was with my father watching Saturday Night Live; Dad laughed so hard he about fell out of the chair.
For the record, “my exit” was 160 off the Parkway, cutting through Bergen co. to get to Passaic. But, you don’t really need to go that way anymore; 287 makes the whole trip a lot faster driving in from the south up 95/NJT.
Karen, you are right in the heart of some darn good food. Pork barbecue for starters, with more of a NC tomato-based sauce as opposed to the Virginia vinegar/brown sugar version; both are great.
Thanks to In Texas because I admit I am a lazy slug where making the biscuits is concerned; the self-rising flour is probably a lot better than dealing with yeast, something I don’t often have time to do. My spouse, too, will be the slave of anyone who makes the tiny biscuits, either “regular” or sweet potato, with small slices of country ham on them. When those are on the buffet table and he’s around, we have to tie him in a chair and let everyone else eat first. 🙂
Sorry, elves, not too off-topic for too long. About the only thing better than manners in the South is the food. Karen, try to explore the regions as much as you can; that’s fun. It’s amazing how Deep South people don’t consider Virginia to be the South–they rib each other mercilessly–then there’s the NC joke–“Does anyone know what NC is?!! A valley of humility between two mountains of conceit”…sorry, all, don’t shoot the messenger; this is just some of the crazy stuff I’ve heard all over the region. Food-wise, the Chesapeake seafood influence on some of the VA/NC cuisine is great, there’s New Orleans with its Cajun(In Texas, did you ever go to Pappadeaux in Dallas? All Cajun seafood, yum…), as you work west towards Texas there’s more of a Tex-Mex influence, etc. If people can’t find something they like, there’s something wrong with them. 🙂
Karen, I’m a recipe and cookbook fanatic; some of these have got to have good biscuit recipes in them–check them out as resources:
1) The 2 Blue Willow Inn Cookbooks from Georgia
2) Mrs. Rowe’s Restaurant Cookbook(Staunton, VA)
3) Paula Deen’s new “Southern Cooking Bible” and that has a great one in it for an easy Brunswick stew that doesn’t use too much ketchup as the “base”;
4) The books of James Villas and his mother–The Glory of Southern Cooking, My Mother’s Southern Kitchen, and My Mother’s Southern Entertaining–I think he used to write for Gourmet or Food & Wine and his books are great with a HUGE Southern influence;
5) Jean Anderson’s “A Love Affair With Southern Cooking”, which is also notable for its “resource” section; ie where to get hard to find or necessary ingredients like good peanuts, stone-ground grits/cornmeal, etc.
6) Christy Jordan’s “Southern Plate”(Alabama) has some wonderful but easy, do-able things in it;
7) Southern Living’s “Off the Eaten Path” which pulls recipes from some of the South and West’s favorite restaurants.
For any more resources, e-mail me offline so the Elves don’t get mad!! Enjoy!! 🙂
When you think about it, the food discussion is not that far off topic, since southern food is tied up with courtesy: inviting people over for dinner (at noon) or supper (at night); pot luck dinners; taking food to the bereaved; etc. I’ve been able to enjoy all the different shades of “southernâ€, particularly Tennessee (parent’s home state), Baton Rouge and NOLA (lived in LA for several years), and, of course, the different regions of Texas. Any Papa’s restaurant is very good, and we do have a Pappadeaux’s here in Denver. That and Landry’s is where we go when we want good gumbo or shrimp and we don’t want to make it at home (I hate deveining shrimp). On country ham, my mom still sends me some on a regular basis from Tennessee. Since Thanksgiving and Christmas is coming up, maybe the elves might consider a holiday recipe thread? Then we could be on topic talking about food and recipes.
In Texas, OOOOHHHH!!! I like the idea of a holiday recipe thread.
Kendall & the elves: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider it!!!!
Bookworm, thanks for the cookbook / recipe suggestions!
I was thinking too of asking for a recipe thread. YUM!!
Jerk seasoning/Cajun really freaks me out; as, at first it’s “oh, that’s so sweet” and then your mouth is on fire!! De-veining shrimp is a time-consuming, gross mess and the purists would be horrified to know that I usually use frozen when I need it, or buy a big plate of fresh(cleaned and/or cooked) for various recipes. Oh, well–maybe what we really need is a T-19 Cookbook–Thoughts, Dr. Harmon?!! 🙂
Well I am sure that Southern recipes for deep fried carotid cakes and lard dumplings are absolutely delicious, shouldn’t a Christian website be promoting cuisine which will not lead T19 readers into CPR and coronary by-pass operations? Not wanting to be contentious or anything but it doesn’t seem the best way of expressing thanksgiving; but perhaps I just don’t understand and have got the wrong end of the stick.
Really, PM, have you forgotten your manners? 😉
I would never cook with nor knowingly ingest Crisco, lard or, God forbid, Copha, but I was not going to say anything so inconsiderate. Butter, and maybe ghee (could one make biscuits/scones with ghee, I wonder?)
There seems to be something that you don’t get about the American South, yes. Not everyone is at the same place on the learning curve, and some are much more experiential learners than others. God did give us free will.
#30 Thanks TACit please thank you you’re welcome – Yup it’s true, we eat to many curries, and should put veggiegunk on our toast rather than butter – so I am to understand it is not a matter of the healthy, but the experiential learning opportunity it provides, is that right? It certainly does sound very Episcopalian.
I was attempting to tease you, PM, and didn’t intend criticism by mentioning ghee – I thought maybe it’s a slightly healthier form of butter (?), and it does make curries and biryani taste more wonderful. I cook mostly with olive oil, or sunflower, safflower or sesame (yum!) or sometimes rice bran or macadamia oil now, though never canola, nor palm/cottonseed/soybean. Corn oil is very hard to find in Oz. I use butter only for baking where unsubstitutable with a liquid oil.
There is a reason one of the best Aussie pejoratives for a fat person is ‘lard bucket’.
Having learned the hard way myself that saturated fats are unhealthy and cholesterol is addictive like a drug, I try not to ding people for having that problem but rather show a different way. It is a wisdom cultures acquire over generations or centuries, and that of Americans is still in the very formative stages since we and our forebears were presented mainly with the high cholesterol and saturated fat options for so long.
TACit, “tub o’ lard” is one of the American pejoratives.
Pageantmaster, my brother, the key to everything is “moderation”. C’mon over here and taste some of this; you don’t have to eat a lot of it… 🙂
Like Yorkshire pudding, steak-and-kidney pie, haggis and other Celtic favorites are HEALTHY?!! And if you have to curry the darn thing to disguise its flavor, perhaps it might be better to throw it out and eat something fresh… 🙂
Sometimes we talk about and salivate over more than we consume. Tonight I ate Greek/Mediterranean, a Gyro that I took half the meat off of(the restaurant did go a little too nuts on that score), and some yummy hummus and pita wedges. And then I came home and drank 3 16-oz glasses of ice water; “death by garlic”. They’re going to love me at Diocesan Convention on Saturday; I hope it’s all processed out my pores by then.
Keep the Faith, and the food… 🙂
#32 TACit – thanks – no worries, if I dish it out, I am prepared to take it, so assumed an element of fun was going on. I rather think ghee is clarified butter! We too have had to learn the hard way about healthy eating, and indeed there is some regret when I think back to the recipes of long ago – fry in butter, flame with brandy, stir in cream…oh dear.
A la recherche du temps perdu.
However there have been some bright spots in modern healthier cooking – Pacific Rim cuisine at its best may be one you are familiar with.
#33 Bookworm – cuisine is not one of the better things the Scots have given the world or the South as I understand it – keep chewing the parsley.
Can’t have clarified butter without Maine lobster…
Didn’t the French give us the notion that red wine dissolves butter in the bloodstream? “More wine, more wine…” 🙂
#33,
Diocese of the South?