Bishop Frank Lyons of Bolivia, a guest at the Diocese of Fort Worth’s annual convention, told delegates and visitors that Archbishop Gregory Venables had “received a positive response” from Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams last September when he informed Archbishop Williams that his province would likely extend a formal invitation to Fort Worth and other U.S. dioceses.
I’d be grateful for some comment from someone who knows the Southern Cone as to whether the Southern Cone recognizes women deacons or vocational deacons. I know that some Southern Cone dioceses ordain men to what Americans call the “transitional” diaconate and presume that all continue to follow the Anglican pattern of ministry.
“The Provincia Anglicana del Cono Sur de América (Spanish for: Anglican Province of the Southern Cone of America) is the ecclesiastical province of the Anglican Communion that covers the countries of Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay.
The province currently has 27,000 members thinly spread across the nations of Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay, which makes it one of the smallest provinces in the Anglican Communion in terms of numbers, although one of the largest in geographical extent. It has seven bishops – about one bishop per 4,000 people. However, it has augmented its membership by recruiting conservative American parishes who wish to opt out of their national church whilst retaining a link with the Anglican Communion. This has caused tensions within the Anglican Communion.”
You know . . . I’ll believe that Canterbury gave a “positive response” when I see it in writing. I’m not questioning the hearers’ integrity. It’s just that Rowan has a way about beaming and smiling and nodding apparently that leaves whoever’s listening to him thinking that he’s giving “a positive response.”
If he wants everybody to know that he has given a “positive response” then he’ll put it in writing. On the other hand, if he wants to continue with “plausible deniability” then he’ll just stay silent, and have Kearon issue something “clarifying.” ; > )
After all, Sarah, isn’t that the “sensible thing to do”?
When ++Akinola was about to install +Minns as head of CANA, the ABC issued a very public letter asking him not to proceed. Bp. Venables told ++Williams face to face two months ago what was about to happen. If the ABC thinks this is a bad idea, he should speak up as he has before. This is not simply a case of misinterpreting the twitch of an eyebrow nor does the cat have his tongue.
Excellent point, Mark. But let us not accuse the ABC of consistency.
Tom:
According to the following, the Southern Cone ordains women to the diaconate but not the presbyterate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women#Anglican_Communion
When ++Akinola was about to install +Minns as head of CANA, the ABC issued a very public letter asking him not to proceed. Bp. Venables told ++Williams face to face two months ago what was about to happen. If the ABC thinks this is a bad idea, he should speak up as he has before. This is not simply a case of misinterpreting the twitch of an eyebrow nor does the cat have his tongue.
It’s nice to see the hopeful grasping at straws 😉
The situation is entirely different. ++Venables is not entering another jurisdiction to perform episcopal acts.
“The province currently has 27,000 members thinly spread across the nations of Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay, which makes it one of the smallest provinces in the Anglican Communion in terms of numbers”
Smaller still than the Polish National Catholic Church. 27K… If I could figure out a way to get $1 from each every week, I would in fact grow to be a very rich man… But to hitch one’s wagon thereto…
It seems rather stop-gap.
Well, good luck +Iker & Co.
The ABC specifically did not invite Bp Cavalcanti of Recife whose situation is entirely analogous to Fort Worth and San Joaquin. Will the ABC rescind the invitation to Schofield or extend an invitation to Cavalcanti? He should do one or the other to maintain consistency.
“++Venables is not entering another jurisdiction to perform episcopal acts.”
Indeed, ++Venables is doing a wholesale transfer of jurisdictions to another province. It makes +Minns’s activities look like a kindergarten recess in comparison.
Until I see the words written on paper and above his signature and posted on the Archbishop’s official website, I will not believe. Mr. Williams is still playing the duplicity game -unfortunately for him (and fortunately for us) he hasn’t mastered it yet -every time he tries it, he is exposed for the ditherer he is.
ASimpleSinner: “It seems rather stop-gap.”
Indeed, it is intended as such. The invitation from the Southern Cone expressly states the arrangement is “temporary and pastoral”, until such time as there are adequate provisions for the orthodox in North America. And in the context of the statement, that means until the ne province intended by the Common Cause Partnership is up and running. This Southern Cone arrangement will not endure more than a few years, God willing, though I can easily imagine that both sides will be strengthened by their time together by the time it ends.
The ABC specifically did not invite Bp Cavalcanti of Recife whose situation is entirely analogous to Fort Worth and San Joaquin. Will the ABC rescind the invitation to Schofield or extend an invitation to Cavalcanti? He should do one or the other to maintain consistency.
Not necessary until +Iker actually leaves
Now, wait a minute. Didn’t PB Venables say that when he told the ABC what he was going to do, +++Rowan said, “that sounds sensible” or something like that? There was most certainly a lot of press about it.
++Venables did not say the ABC gave him permission, just that it sounded “sensible”. As far as I can see, there’s been nothing from Kearon, or anyone else “clarifying” that statement.
I suppose one could say “sounds sensible” was confirming, but knowing the current state, I’d have to wait for something more.
Gloria
I suppose this is a good day to be thankful that the ABC has taken a non-tone as opposed to a negative tone.
May God teach us grattitude. May He teach us how to give proper thanks to Him.
Brian #14, agreed. That is why I posed it in terms of Schofield who it appears will doing the leaving first.
And I believe that there is precedence in Europe that boundaries are “fuzzy.” I look forward to fuzzy boundaries in North America. Which of the diocesan boundaries, Pittsburgh, Fort Worth or San Joaquin, be blurry enough to include Colorado? Hmmm…it doesn’t matter to me. It’s all good.
Another question: Is the PB going to sue Rowan Williams for interfering in her queendom? I wouldn’t put it past her.
The response of the Primates to the JSC Report (those who have actually responded!) has now been released. +Rowan will make a statement in the coming weeks. So far – 12 positive, 10 negative, 2 mixed:
http://www.anglicancommunion.org:80/acns/news.cfm/2007/11/22/ACNS4340
The Polish National Catholic Church???? Bigger than 27,000?
“The Polish National Catholic Church???? Bigger than 27,000?”
Dr. Tighe – who is more in the know and “up” on such things offers 50K as the membership these days… I think it rather closer to 30K. Lies, damned lies, statistics and ecclesial statistics! Hard to tell.
Texanglican offers:“Indeed, it is intended as such. The invitation from the Southern Cone expressly states the arrangement is “temporary and pastoralâ€, until such time as there are adequate provisions for the orthodox in North America. And in the context of the statement, that means until the ne province intended by the Common Cause Partnership is up and running. This Southern Cone arrangement will not endure more than a few years, God willing, though I can easily imagine that both sides will be strengthened by their time together by the time it ends. “
I am trying to imagine a scenario where, ten years down the line, a growing, sustainable, vibrant and traditional diocese can come back in from the cold. It seems rather like a war of attrition with either side hedging bets alternately that the alternate oversight/continuing anglican/wihtdrawn jurisdictions will fragment further &/or disappear, and the same in turn hoping perhaps TEC will simply withdraw of be kicked out of the Anglican Communion allowing for orthodox anglicans to replace it as THE Anglican jurisdiction in America…
At this point I am trying to see how it could be that anything but “open communion” could amount to intercommunion between these two very disparate parties.
ASimpleSinner, I am not quite certain what you mean by “open communion” in your last line, but if you mean that both TEC and the new North American province will be in communion with Canterbury ten years from now, I suspect that you are correct. There is some precedent in mainland Europe having parallel Anglican jurisdictions over the same territory (though in this present case the difference would be doctrinal rather than country of origin of the jurisdictions). Having two competing “legit” Anglican entities in the USA is not the way I would like it (TEC ought to be kicked out of the Communion for its grave errors) but it is becoming more and more clear that Canterbury doesn’t have the stomach for casting TEC out, and I doubt the Global South as the clout to force him to do so against his wishes. It is of course possible that the entire Communion will disintegrate, but if it doesn’t I am confident the “new ecclesiastical structure” here will be recognized as a full member of the Communion within five years. A large portion of the world’s Primates are clearly ready to recognize it as soon as it declares itself formally late next year (according to the CCP timeline from their synod meeting two months ago). And I am quite certain the new province will become a place where “a growing, sustainable, vibrant and traditional diocese” like Fort Worth can flourish.
Robroy wrote: [blockquote] He should do one or the other to maintain consistency. [/blockquote] While I had opined: [blockquote] But let us not accuse the ABC of consistency.[/blockquote] I guess I had better add: [blockquote] And let us not hold our breaths waiting for the ABC to demonstrate consistency. [/blockquote]
Supposing that the report is entirely factual, might not this be the beginning of the Anglican Church becoming something of a British Commonwealth with the ABC becoming a QEII-like figurehead of entirely self-governing units?
Adam 12: …and that would be different how?
8. Brian from T19: [i] “The situation is entirely different. ++Venables is not entering another jurisdiction to perform episcopal acts.” [/i]
Brian, this is not actually true – in the broad sense. At least one of ++Venable’s bishops has ordained deacons and priests in TEC “territory”. I know one in another state and one in our parish, and there are others. These priests are now serving parishes under the episcopal care of the Diocese of Bolivia and in CANA churches. There are others whose current ministry details I do not know. The bishop of Bolivia does not do this without the permission and encouragement of ++Venables. Such oversight of parishes by bishops of the Southern Cone certainly represents continuing episcopal care by ++Venables and his faithful bishops.
There is an amazing amount of coordination among the Global South primates and their bishops. The ordinand from our Virginia CANA parish was originally sent to Ohio to be ordained transitional deacon in Ohio by a Southern Cone bishop. He has since been ordained priest by a CANA bishop and is preparing to go as a missionary priest to the UK. That is the dynamic order and responsiveness that can exist in the one holy catholic church within its Anglican expression, at least among those who agree on what the Gospel message actually is. Another example – an Ohio rector currently under the Bishop of Bolivia has been elected a bishop (along with 3 others) by the HoB of the Church of Nigeria and will be consecrated as a CANA bishop 9 Dec.
We are very thankful for ++Venables and his bishops’ support in providing the means for ordinations and other episcopal acts and episcopal oversight in a number of areas in the USA – along with other Global South Anglican primates and bishops.
++Venables current offer for diocesan oversight is merely one more step in the advance of a reformation of Anglicanism in North America.
Mick
Very interesting post from ACNS
Most interesting/telling:
All of the Provinces that have responded negatively to the conclusions of the JSC Report belong to the Global South alliance.
21. ASimpleSinner wrote:
“The Polish National Catholic Church???? Bigger than 27,000?â€
Dr. Tighe – who is more in the know and “up†on such things offers 50K as the membership these days… I think it rather closer to 30K. Lies, damned lies, statistics and ecclesial statistics! Hard to tell.
I would think that the PNCC is closer to 10,000 in membership. If that.
Tom (#1) – I know of at least six female deacons from Southern Cone. One from Argentina, one from Uruguay, and four from Peru. I spent a week down there in a conference on the diaconate with five other deacons from Dallas. It was a wonderful experience and a great time of sharing ministry. We were priviledged to participate in the ordination of yet another deacon.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Kendall, Happy Thanksgiving.
Have you run this story yet – a second retired Canadian bishop has joined the Southern Cone:
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/index.php/2007/11/22/second-anglican-network-in-canada-bishop-received-into-southern-cone/