Kendall,
I agree with you. While I don’t want to get into theological flaming, Mormonism is a polytheist religion. I know of no Christian church or sect which recognizes Mormonism to also be Christian. I believe that most Christian churches and sects (even the liberal ones) receive Mormon converts through full baptism which is a de facto rejection of their claim to being Christian.
Let me just address what the paper did. (And that isn’t much.)
First, the LDS church also includes [i]Doctrines and Covenants[/i] and [i]The Pearl of Great Price[/i] as scriptures, in addition to the Bible and the [i]Book of Mormon[/i].
Second, they not only believe that revelation is ongoing, but that the revelation comes through the LDS church. (That’s how they justify their volte-face on the polygamy and racial issues.)
Third, their idea about God is that, not only does God have a body, but that they can become gods themselves. This is not found in the Book of Mormon (quite the contrary,) but was first elucidated by Joseph Smith at a funeral oration.
Fourth, they actually settled in Utah to escape not only persecution but also the United States itself (Utah was part of Mexico at the time.) Their re-entry into this country wasn’t the smoothest process (it was during that era that the Mountain Meadows massacre took place,) but it finally worked out with Utah’s admission to statehood.
If they are being honest, LDS people will tell you that their church is a “Restoration Church,” and that the other churches are corrupted. Such is their opinion of the rest of us.
Hmmmm. Article didn’t say anything about their “garmies” either (underwear or “garments” worn by all Mormons to protect tham from the “profane”) Yes, very nice, clean, virtuous people, but not Christian (much like many Episcopalians.) They further believe that Christ’s resurrection was only the first of the resurrections that they all will someday achieve, whereby they become a god of some outlying planet. Oh, yeah…and women can’t “go to heaven” or get resurrected on their own – they have to be “pulled” or “drawn” into heaven by their husband – the alleged rationale for polygamy. Don’t kid yourselves about polygamy not being practised, either. It still goes on in the remote parts of UT, AZ and CO.
My old academic advisor (who was Jewish) had an answer to this, when discussing religion with Mormons: “You aren’t Christians, for the same reason Moslems aren’t Jews: [i] You have a different Book. [/i]
If they have a different holy book, it’s a different religion. This argument may lack sophistication, but it’s simple enough for the public to understand.
(He also told them, “So if I convert, you say I’ll get to be god of a planet someday? Sheesh, with my luck, it would probably be Mercury!”)
True, except for TEC which, in at least one case, accepted an ex-Mormon into the Church without re-baptizing; then they made her bishop of Utah. Please correct me if I’m wrong, anyone. I would love to be.
Wilfred, I like that answer. Their faith is a religion of the Bible “and something else”, and that could go on forever. While Christianity has centuries of other writings and revelations, none are elevated to the level of scripture. The closest thing would I suppose be the Creeds, which do not contravene scripture.
The issue of Bishop Tanner-Irish’s Mormon baptism gets surfaced every 6 months or so and I’m sure there are plenty of blog threads from past T19’s on this subject. To my knowledge her Mormon baptism has never been refuted – and one assumes bishop Irish feels adequately baptised into the body of Christ without a Christian baptism. Why it isn’t a disciplinary issue, or a corrective one, speaks to the lack of process built into the office of bishop in TEC. How would the H.O.B. (or General Convention?) require re-baptism of a bishop, post-consent? For that matter, how would the H.O.B. require records that a bishop (Beisner) had received counseling and clearance by his bishop to marry his third wife, post-consent? It took 10 – 15 years to discipline Bennison after pretty obvious abuse of the bishop’s office, the last significant discipline of a bishop was decades before that. So I won’t hold my breath waiting for TEC to ask bishop Irish to get re-baptised.
I hope that, whatever new Anglican province emerges here, efforts will be made to build in greater accountability (and explicit discipline) for the misuse of the office of bishop.
For myself, they do not make sufficently clear that Mormonism is not Christianity, and that Mormons deny the doctrine of the Trinity.
The second bullet point applies directly to TEC’s “new thing.”
Bob
Kendall,
I agree with you. While I don’t want to get into theological flaming, Mormonism is a polytheist religion. I know of no Christian church or sect which recognizes Mormonism to also be Christian. I believe that most Christian churches and sects (even the liberal ones) receive Mormon converts through full baptism which is a de facto rejection of their claim to being Christian.
Let me just address what the paper did. (And that isn’t much.)
First, the LDS church also includes [i]Doctrines and Covenants[/i] and [i]The Pearl of Great Price[/i] as scriptures, in addition to the Bible and the [i]Book of Mormon[/i].
Second, they not only believe that revelation is ongoing, but that the revelation comes through the LDS church. (That’s how they justify their volte-face on the polygamy and racial issues.)
Third, their idea about God is that, not only does God have a body, but that they can become gods themselves. This is not found in the Book of Mormon (quite the contrary,) but was first elucidated by Joseph Smith at a funeral oration.
Fourth, they actually settled in Utah to escape not only persecution but also the United States itself (Utah was part of Mexico at the time.) Their re-entry into this country wasn’t the smoothest process (it was during that era that the Mountain Meadows massacre took place,) but it finally worked out with Utah’s admission to statehood.
If they are being honest, LDS people will tell you that their church is a “Restoration Church,” and that the other churches are corrupted. Such is their opinion of the rest of us.
Hmmmm. Article didn’t say anything about their “garmies” either (underwear or “garments” worn by all Mormons to protect tham from the “profane”) Yes, very nice, clean, virtuous people, but not Christian (much like many Episcopalians.) They further believe that Christ’s resurrection was only the first of the resurrections that they all will someday achieve, whereby they become a god of some outlying planet. Oh, yeah…and women can’t “go to heaven” or get resurrected on their own – they have to be “pulled” or “drawn” into heaven by their husband – the alleged rationale for polygamy. Don’t kid yourselves about polygamy not being practised, either. It still goes on in the remote parts of UT, AZ and CO.
But the article does lead one to think that Mormons and Christians are NOT alike.
My old academic advisor (who was Jewish) had an answer to this, when discussing religion with Mormons: “You aren’t Christians, for the same reason Moslems aren’t Jews: [i] You have a different Book. [/i]
If they have a different holy book, it’s a different religion. This argument may lack sophistication, but it’s simple enough for the public to understand.
(He also told them, “So if I convert, you say I’ll get to be god of a planet someday? Sheesh, with my luck, it would probably be Mercury!”)
#3 (Ad Orientam)
True, except for TEC which, in at least one case, accepted an ex-Mormon into the Church without re-baptizing; then they made her bishop of Utah. Please correct me if I’m wrong, anyone. I would love to be.
Having checked on it, my post (#8) is correct. Divorced and remarried Carolyn Irish, “bishop” of Utah never received Christian baptism. Hmmm.
Sorry, that should be “Carolyn Tanner Irish”.
Wilfred, I like that answer. Their faith is a religion of the Bible “and something else”, and that could go on forever. While Christianity has centuries of other writings and revelations, none are elevated to the level of scripture. The closest thing would I suppose be the Creeds, which do not contravene scripture.
[i]Don’t kid yourselves about polygamy not being practised, either. It still goes on in the remote parts of UT, AZ and CO.[/i]
And NV. And the not so rural areas.
But since most of the rest of Western religion practices serial monogomy, we’re hardly in a position to critique.
The issue of Bishop Tanner-Irish’s Mormon baptism gets surfaced every 6 months or so and I’m sure there are plenty of blog threads from past T19’s on this subject. To my knowledge her Mormon baptism has never been refuted – and one assumes bishop Irish feels adequately baptised into the body of Christ without a Christian baptism. Why it isn’t a disciplinary issue, or a corrective one, speaks to the lack of process built into the office of bishop in TEC. How would the H.O.B. (or General Convention?) require re-baptism of a bishop, post-consent? For that matter, how would the H.O.B. require records that a bishop (Beisner) had received counseling and clearance by his bishop to marry his third wife, post-consent? It took 10 – 15 years to discipline Bennison after pretty obvious abuse of the bishop’s office, the last significant discipline of a bishop was decades before that. So I won’t hold my breath waiting for TEC to ask bishop Irish to get re-baptised.
I hope that, whatever new Anglican province emerges here, efforts will be made to build in greater accountability (and explicit discipline) for the misuse of the office of bishop.