(ACNS) In response to reports of violence and threats towards Christians involved in the debate on human sexuality, the Archbishop of Canterbury has given the following statement:
“The threats recently made against the leaders of Changing Attitudes are disgraceful. The Anglican Communion has repeatedly, through the Lambeth Conference and the statements from its Primates’ Meetings, unequivocally condemned violence and the threat of violence against gay and lesbian people. I hope that this latest round of unchristian bullying will likewise be universally condemned.”
This needs to be said repeatedly in the current environment–KSH.
I would submit that efforts to silence voices opposing the GLBT agenda in Canada and elsewhere throught the use of “hate speech laws” and “human rights commissions” also need to be condemned.
While I agree that violence against *any* group of people is wrong, where is the Archbishop’s condemnation of the abuse of elderly clergy being conducted by the Presiding Bishop?
The ABC had egg on his face previously for too hastily condemning Bishop Orama of Nigeria for his purported commented “death to homosexuals”, a comment that was [url=http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/5845 ]disproven[/url]. We now have this statement from the radical homosexual rights group that obviously is intended to impugn the Anglican Church of Nigeria. And again the ABC is jumping on the bandwagon. Greg Griffiths has rightly called for proof of these charges.
Does anti-homosexual violence occur in Nigeria? Probably. Does anti-homosexual violence occur in the United States? Definitely. Is the Episcopal church responsible for the later? In the strange logic of the Changing Attitude people – yes.
Having read many statements of ABp Akinola, it is accurate to say that he and the rest of the Church of Nigeria want homosexuals to repent and turn to saving grace of our Lord. That won’t happen by physical violence but prayerful witness.
Don’t be too quick to accept the allegations of Changing Attitude. The credibility of Colin Coward and his Nigerian poster boy are questionable, to say the least.
I wish the Archbishop would condemn the violence the Epsicopal Church is perpetrating against me with millions of dollars of legal actions over accusations already proven to be false…and I am the least of the afflicted compared to some others they are going after…
Echoing Fr. Don, when will His Grace speak against the outrages perpetrated by our Popette?
[i] The elves remind the commenters that this type if nickname is inappropriate. [/i]
[i] Off topic comment deleted by elf. [/i]
After reviewing my last comment, that whole thought is off-topic. Sorry about that.
Back to the subject at hand: I understand why everyone is upset that the AoC is not condemning other behavior, but I hope that we can all agree that alleged violence against homosexuals being condemned isn’t a bad thing?
Charles,
I think it IS a bad thing when we jump on the band wagon to condem alledged actions of any kind without any evidence that said actions took place. In this particular case, I very much doubt that the allegations will be proven to be factual.
Thank you, Kendall. Indeed, “this needs to be said repeatedly in the current environment” and bless you for being one of the voices saying it.
ABC: “I hope that this latest round of unchristian bullying will likewise be universally condemned.†If he would only come out as loud about Schori’s bullying we would be in great shape.
[i] Slightly edited by elf. [/i]
IDEA:
Speaking of violence and unChristian bullying. How about somebody with a spine organizing a Church-wide “Red Hand Month”. Reason: by our silence, by our careful and safe back row analyzing (Luther didn’t just blog the 95 Theses – he also drove a nail into a door), our lack of sacrifices to challenge the minions chewing our Lord’s Church, and our giving of dollars for Schori’s bunch to do it all in OUR name, we are ALL GUILTY of killing off the souls of thousands of our Church. Paint hands red for a month. Show the guilt that we have all gotten sucked into by our complicity. When others ask, tell why. Or, just keeping griping and typing.
No one should disagree with ++Rowan’s condemnation of violence and threat of violence against GBLT folk —or any other minority or weaker group for that matter. I wish that he would be as strong in his statements when it comes to protecting the right of his clergy and all other members of the CofE to free speech and the expression of personal beliefs, particularly in matters of faith and conscience.
I too condemn the violence against lesbian and gay people. Now, having said that, I condemn THEIR public statements against those who disagree with them. Fairness works both ways……or at least it’s supposed to!
Given ++Rowan’s deference – bordering on slavishness – to Islam, it’s clear he is swallowing CA’s assertion that the Anglican Church in Nigeria is behind this. And also given the other violence, physical and otherwise, going on in the Communion these days, it’s odd that this would rouse our narcoleptic leader to outrage. It goes without saying that violence against anyone, gay or otherwise, is to be condemned, but why now and why this?
It’s interesting to follow the progression of this thread. Our moderator says that “this needs to be said repeatedly in the current environmentâ€
Then ‘Br Michael’ makes a moral equivalence between physical violence (attack at a funeral) and anti-speech laws. It read as if he is saying “Well, if we were allowed to denounce their behavior we wouldn’t need to hurt them.”
The vast majority of the remaining posts either
1. equate legal action with physical violence
and/or
2. accuse Colin Coward and CAN of lying.
Fortunately, a few actually bothered to condemn physical violence. It’s sad in a time when we are remembering martyrs like MLK and Dietrich Bonhoeffer that we can’t bring ourselves to acknowledge that physical violence is wrong regardless of the ideology of the victim. These small ‘exceptions’ invalidate the statements that violence against LGBT individuals is wrong. I’ll take my cue from the ABC and Father Harmon.
I believe that violence against homosexual people needs to be condemned. My problem with what the ABC did, was that he responded to very questionable accusations made by Changing Attitude. In so doing, I think the ABC has made himself to be a dupe in a PR campaign.
The ABC would have been far wiser to have said something like “Allegations have been made by Changing Attitude that some of their leaders have been threatened. The Anglican Communion has repeatedly, through the Lambeth Conference and the statements from its Primates’ Meetings, unequivocally condemned violence and the threat of violence against gay and lesbian people. I hope that any bullying or violence against homosexual persons will be universally condemned.”
In this way, the ABC would be saying what needs to be said, without being drawn into (what the evidence suggests is) a dubious smear campaign on the part of Changing Attitude and its American allies against the Anglican Church of Nigeria and its primate.
Forgive my ignorance. “In response to [WHAT] reports of violence and threats towards Christians involved in the debate on human sexuality”?
episcoanglican
This is the press release
http://www.changingattitude.org.uk/news/newsitem.asp?id=351
I have not seen any corroboration of this report from other news sources.
From the Changing Attitude release: “You may know that there were several instances of actual physical violence and threats of violence and death enacted against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) leaders of Changing Attitude in Nigeria over the Easter Weekend 2008.”
Questions:
Where exactly did these occur?
Exactly when?
By whom?
In what exact manner were these “attacks” carried out?
Anyone who takes Press Releases from CA as gospel truth needs my prayers. The same CA folks who have over and over again lied and misrepresented facts are at it again.
If CA is all that concerned about the safety of the endangered, I beg them to join me and all other well-meaning Christians in fighting for the safety of the most endangered and the least protected innocent ones – the unborn babies in the womb and at the mercy of the Abortion Supporters and providers.
I know this is not about abortion, but it is about violence to the innocent – therefore, I would hope the elves spare this comment.
Fr. Kinglsey+
Arlington, TX
I think you see the problem here, WVEpiscopalian. We have a group with a big, shiny axe to grind issuing a press release describing in the most lurid terms a horrific attack that does not appear to have any witnesses, photos, police reports, medical response, newspaper accounts or corroboration of any kind.
Pardon us for not immediately denouncing gay-bashing in principle, but that was not the topic. This specific incident is, and I think we’ve all seen enough arsonist firemen, Tawana Brawleys and Duke non-rape cases to become honorary Missourians and ask them to “Show Me.”
Sadly, Rowan Williams, Kendall+, and Father Clavier are being played for dupes by this radical homosexual group. It is offensive, to say the least, that a letter is sent to primates attending GAFCon implying that had something to do with this alleged offense. I am incredulous that these gentlemen can’t see through this poorly veiled attempt to impugn the characters of the likes of Akinola, Orombi, etc.
The people that should be condemned are those bearing false witness.
[i] Fr. Clavier HAS NOT commented on this thread. Please be careful with your accusations. [/i]
“Questions:
“Where exactly did these occur?”
Port Harcourt
“Exactly when?”
During a funeral service for the sister of Davis MacIyalla
“By whom?”
A mob of unidentified people
“In what exact manner were these “attacks†carried out?”
A savage beating
As for the threats:
“The Reverend Colin Coward, Director of Changing Attitude England, received an intimidating text on Easter Monday, 24 March.
The text message to Davis Mac-Iyalla was sent from a cell phone in Nigeria: 002347083455156.
The message read:
“Davis Mac-Iyalla you refused to repent and leave homosexuality and now we will wipe you out and your homo friends out now. If Nigeria is too small for you to hid. Togo will be easier to get you. Prepare your soul to go to hell because we are coming to send you there.â€
The Reverend Colin Coward received a text from a different Nigerian cell phone: 002348070758712
This text message read:
“evil homosexual promoter, we gave your nigerian homosexual representative and his followers long time to repent but he underrated us. now we are going and nothing will stop us. we are not mere boosters we mean every words but keep encouraging them to pollute our country with abomination and immorality . come and save them if you canâ€
These texts have been received following the events in Port Harcourt on Maundy Thursday when the co-leader of the Changing Attitude group was savagely beaten in an attack outside the compound where the funeral ceremony for the sister of Davis Mac-Iyalla was taking place. There is a relationship between the attack in Port Harcourt and the threats
The matter has been reported to the police in the UK who are taking the threatened violence against members of Changing Attitude seriously and have referred it to Special Branch for further investigation.
News update
Davis Mac-Iyalla was attacked on Sunday morning, 30 March 2008, near the post office in Lome. He had travelled there on the back of a motorbike, and doesn’t know if he had been followed from his flat. There were many witnesses to what happened. Two men and a woman in a car drove up. One of the men got out, approached Davis and called him brother in English. He asked Davis for his passport and Davis said he didn’t have one. He then asked Davis who is his contact in Abuja and Davis said he didn’t have a contact. He then asked if Davis could give them the documents and Davis said What documents?
At that moment the man produced a knife and slashed Davis’s hand, and then a syringe with which the man tried to inject Davis. Davis managed to defend himself and knock the syringe away. The man ran back to the car and the three drove off. Davis retrieved the syringe, took it to the police station and reported the attack. The police analysis of the contents of the syringe is awaited. Davis then went to the hospital where his hand was dressed. He was given a strong sedative and went the house of lesbian friends to recover in safety.”
Jeffersonian and robroy
I am not saying it was true. I have just as much information as you do (although robroy appears to have been there and can attest with absolute certainty that it did not). There is no question that in the past false information regarding Nigeria has been published and has deceived many good people. If it did happen, it should be condemned. If it did not, then the reports and the reporting groups should be likewise condemned.
15, no moral equivanence intended. If it is true I will condemn it and I do, even if hypothetical! But is it true? And the LGBT community have proved themselves to be pastmasters of demogogary and propaganda.
I agree that violence or threats of violence needs to be condemned. So does other sinnful behavior, including homosexual acts. Groups like Integrity and Changing attitudes are inflaming a lot of rhetoric themselves, and blaming the Anglican Church for threats and violence is ridiculous. This is almost as bad as condemming all whites because one or two ignorant whites assault a black or vice verse. It makes no sense, and is nothing but inflammatory. Also, the GLBT crowd needs to look at their own acts of verbal assault and intimidation. If you do not agree with them, you are shouted down no matter who or what you are. Why should any minority attempt to dicatate to the majority what WILL BE? They have taken over what was once a respected religious institution and turned it into a pagan cult. How is that any more Christian that the actions they rale against?
This is a classic case of people being too quick to jump in and make statements regarding an incident that has not been verified. If it really was the ABC that made the comment attributed to him, it indicates where his sympathies lie.
You are watching an argument and situation being defined by an advocacy group; i.e., Changing Attitudes. It is somewhat of a reverse ad-hominem ploy. Take over the language and define yourselves in terms of “positive” language such as “inclusive” and “affirming”. This then defines anyone who disagrees with you as negative and unkind; even then the disagreement is limited to the verbal. You then allude to how verbal disgreement is actually verbal violence, and verbal violence leads to physical violence. Therefore, disagreeing with Changing Attitudes equates to physical violence and anybody disagreeing must condone physical violence. I must give credit to the folks running these campaigns. They have consistently outmanuvered and outclassed the people defending traditional Christian doctrine and teaching. The traditional Christians have a high hill to climb because the ABC, mainstream media, and much of the Anglican church hierarchy openly sympathize with Changing Attitudes’ position.
Traditional Christians need to find some excellent PR and mass communications folks who can help them frame their case in better terms. Violence against anyone needs to be unequivocally condemned, but it needs to be done in a context of offering victims Christ’s transforming love to help them live into the fullness of what God intended them to be.
I hope some objective persons will delve fully into this incident so we can find out what the truth about it really is.
As I said, anti-homosexual violence is occurring in England, the U.S., etc. Does the ABC condemn himself? What in the world do the primates of GAFCon have to do with alleged event? Answer: Nothing. Concerned about anti-homosexual violence. Send a letter to all the primates.
To Father Clavier – I certainly do not what happened in Nigeria. I do know that it is as relevant to the primates of GAFCon as any other primate, and this is a very cheap shot. I am sorry but I think that you (plus Kendall and RW) are naively playing into their hands to bear false witness.
[blockquote]I am not saying it was true. I have just as much information as you do (although robroy appears to have been there and can attest with absolute certainty that it did not). There is no question that in the past false information regarding Nigeria has been published and has deceived many good people. If it did happen, it should be condemned. If it did not, then the reports and the reporting groups should be likewise condemned. [/blockquote]
Agreed, 100%.
In the meantime, can we agree that if the Archbishop of Centerbury is concerned with violence against Nigerian Christians, he might take a short break from shilling for British shari’a and express an animadversion to its Nigerian practitioners?
I must ask respectfully, just what is the current environment?
I condemn violence against anyone.
I condemn the generations of bad faith behavior that have brought so many to doubt the veracity of constant claims of victimhood.
When the whole subject of hate crimes is recognized in the criminal statutes as being of more a serious offence if the victim is a minority, the laws are being politicized. Hate is hate. Violence is violence. Who cares what the motivation is as long as it is a true motivation. Special interest groups care. It is a way to move their agenda forward. I see everyone tripping over themselves to make the proper political correct disclaimer. Somehow by doing so, it exaggerates the likelihood that people think it is a commonplace practice. Maybe it is, or isn’t, in various cultural circles. Where it isn’t common is in orthodox Christianity. Just like when the ABofC made controversial statements in the recent past about British law, he should also know that when he singles out an issue like this one, it creates the perception that some Christian circles condone the violence. Somehow the issue of condoning or objecting to one kind of behavior is confused with the condoning or objecting to another. That ends up to be just a political spin and is why many contributors to this thread consider his statement ironic.
Thank you for this, Kendall.
My apologies to Father Clavier. I was confusing the “handles” of wvparson and wvepiscopalian.
Anti-homosexual violence occurs in Nigeria, England, the U.S. and pretty much anywhere. It should be condemned. But what is going on here is a transparent and deliberate attempt by the radical homosexual group, Changing Attitude, to impugn the characters of the GAFCon primates by associating them with this alleged event when they have as much to do with this as Katherine Jefferts Schori had with the murder of Matthew Shepard.
It is nice to be able to agree with Susan Russell and John Wilkins on occasion.
“Anti-homosexual violence occurs in Nigeria, England, the U.S. and pretty much anywhere. It should be condemned. But what is going on here is a transparent and deliberate attempt by the radical homosexual group, Changing Attitude, to impugn the characters of the GAFCon primates by associating them with this alleged event when they have as much to do with this as Katherine Jefferts Schori had with the murder of Matthew Shepard.”
I would agree if that was what ++Williams was saying. However, he makes no such claim that about Nigeria or GAFCON. He did not address this to those bishops-he addressed this to the world at large. This is an official statement about violence, it does not say the Church of Nigeria or the GAFCON bishops are responsible. In fact he says “I hope that this latest round of unchristian bullying will likewise be universally condemned.” which is a condemnation that Father Harmon and others in the Communion are rightly giving. Unfortunately others are not.
As for Changing Attitude, they are the ones making the accusations against the Church of Nigeria and other Primates. From what I can tell they have no evidence for this whatsoever and should not be making those statements.
“In the meantime, can we agree that if the Archbishop of Centerbury is concerned with violence against Nigerian Christians, he might take a short break from shilling for British shari’a and express an animadversion to its Nigerian practitioners?”
I’ll agree that he should certainly condemn violence across the board from wherever it stems.
#22: ‘The text message to Davis Mac-Iyalla was sent from a cell phone in Nigeria: 002347083455156.’
Then he should report this to the police to see if the call can be traced. Just what has this to do with the GAFCon leaders?
We have all seen this so very many times:
[blockquote] Louie Crew’s strategem #17 – Dismiss all disagreement with our agenda as hateful homophobia. [/blockquote]
Indeed, the revisionists pull it out like clockwork. Now, we have this modification seen by [url=http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/11654/#208203 ]Jake[/url]:
[blockquote]Yes, I am accusing you, and this website, by allowing derogatory terms to be used in reference to gays and lesbians, and their supporters, of sharing responsibility for the acts of violence being committed every day against the innocent.[/blockquote]
So our derogatory language creates culpability in us for any anti-homosexual violence. But what language is that? If we say the self evident statement, “Homosexuality is, in no uncertain terms, condemned in scripture and the forcing (or foisting) the issue onto the Anglican church is tearing the church apart.”, then this obvious statement creates in us partial responsibility for the action of some thugs somewhere in the world??? It simply allows the revisionists to control the language, “You can’t say that for it might stir up anti-homosexual violence in Uzbekistan.”
Let us look at the words of [url=http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2007/07/peter-akinola-w.html#more ]ABp Akinola[/url]:
[blockquote] But for church leaders to be promoting and celebrating it. In our country, if anyone came to me and said look, bishop, I am homosexual. I said is that so, I will call the pastor. Brother we have a case here. Kindly help this young man, this young woman. I believe
that through counseling, through the study of the word of God together, and prayers, people can change. We have stories of people in England and America and England who have been transformed. Who were once homosexual but who are now changed to heterosexual. Seconly when we are ordained into the ministry of the gospel of Christ a minister is supposed to be a wholesome example, a wholesome example to the whole flock. When you have chosen a particular way of life, a particular orientation, you can only be an example to your own little clique. You can only be an example to your own little club. That in itself negates your ordination.[/blockquote]
If you go to Jake’s blog, what you see is a blatant attempt to demonize this prayerful and careful man, throwing innuendos or outright lies like darts from the evil one, bearing false witness to the umpteenth degree. This latest onslaught from changing attitude which Jake takes up with relish is only the latest salvo. That is what Kendall and Rowan Williams should be condemning.
#37: I agree. ‘Changing Attitude’ set a trap and I regret that Kendall walked into it by publishing their insinuating propaganda.
Should we publish a report on the pathologies of homosexual behavior (of which there is ample clinical evidence) and ask ‘Changing Attitude’ to agree that it is dangerous to health, indeed, life-shortening?
Colin Coward tried to manipulate/spin proceedings at Dar es Salaam, and this is another from that play-book.
robroy and The Gordian
I have to say again that you are getting your information elsewhere. I don’t see any of those quotes in the post or even in the comments. Since you and Gordian were in Nigeria and are stating as fact that this did not happen, please provide us with more information regaring your travels.
As far as derogatory language, no one (especially here at Titus One Nine) I am not seeing it. Who claims that you can not use the term homosexual?
Since you seem to feel this issue is entirely abouy Archbishop Akinola, may be the writers you quote are referring to his quote:
“I cannot think of how a man in his senses would be having a sexual relationship with another man. Even in the world of animals, dogs, cows, lions, we don’t hear of such things. ”
where he uses terminology that says homosexuals are beneath animals and are mentally ill.
But either way, Father Harmon and Archbishop Williams are not making those argumenrs here and you are putting words in their mouths that they do not appear to have said. I think it would be helpful if you contacted Archbishop Williams )and others) and let him kno of your own experience at the funeral in Port Harcourt. Then he will have another perspective.
[blockquote]This is an official statement about violence, it does not say the Church of Nigeria or the GAFCON bishops are responsible. In fact he says “I hope that this latest round of unchristian bullying will likewise be universally condemned.†which is a condemnation that Father Harmon and others in the Communion are rightly giving. [/blockquote]
Interesting, and I think you’re on to something here, WV. Of course, by extension, this not only presumes that it is Christians that are doing the (presumed) bullying, but also implicitly excuses Muslims who bully gays, don’t you think? I mean, outside of Seattle, most Muslims aren’t Christians.
#39: I did *not say the claimed acts didn’t happen. I said that if Mr Coward has two cell phone numbers from alleged threateners, why didn’t he seek to trace the calls?
What has it got to do with Akinola?
Every day prostitutes get beaten or murdered. Are Christians who preach against prostitution responsible?
“I cannot think of how a man in his senses would be having a sexual relationship with another man. Even in the world of animals, dogs, cows, lions, we don’t hear of such things. “
The above quote from the Archbishop is always parsed by reappraisers to mean that he equates homosexuals with animals. You even said it yourself, WVEpiscopalian, that he’s saying they’re beneath animals and mentally ill. That’s NOT what he’s saying, and you all know it. It is twisting his words for political reasons. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his comment. He is saying that this behavior is against nature itself, and he in his own mind can’t comprehend thinking of doing such things. People want to read more into it than that so they can vilify the man. It is intellectually dishonest!
[i]”It is intellectually dishonest!”[/i] More than that, it’s bearing false witness, the ninth commandment.
Perhaps wvepiscopalian is naive, perhaps he is duplicitous. Why the overriding concern for purported anti-homosexual violence in Nigeria (as opposed to Iran or England or the US)? Why send the letters to the GAFCon primates? Everyone [i]but[/i] wvepiscopalian can see the reason, apparently.
It seems that Changing Attitude is [url=http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/11672/ ]changing their tune[/url].
Fool Rowan Williams, shame on you. Fool him [url=http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/5845″]twice[/url], shame on him. (Did he even apologize to Bp Orama? Will he apologize to ABp Akinola? Will he speak out against the persecution of the orthodox in America, both U.S. and Canada, without his usual mealy mouth equivocations? I am not holding my breath.)
This is the last I’ll post on this one because I want to clear up what I am saying.
1. My objections to the several comments regarding the actual post are (a) neither Father Harmon nor the ABC singled out any Primate or group of Primates and (b) the violence may or may not have occured in Nigeria, but threats were made in England to English citizens. Therefore, the claims that this is only about Nigeria are false.
2. I was not attempting to vilify Archbishop Akinola – rather I was trying to point out that there are other examples of people using negative terminology than were cited.
3. I am also asking for proofs of the claims that (a) Colin Coward et all are lying and (b) that father Harmon or Archbishop Williams ever said anything at all that accused the Primate of Nigeria or the Primates associated with GAFCON.
Hatred is a hard cycle to break.
#45: Colin Coward reads this site and so does his comrade in arms Martin Reynolds. Let them comment on what they meant.
Juxtaposition jux·ta·po·si·tion
Pronunciation: ˌjək-stə-pə-ˈzi-shən
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin juxta near + English position — more at joust
Date: 1654
: the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side; also : the state of being so placed
1665, coined in Fr. 17c. from L. juxta “beside, near” + Fr. position. Latin juxta is a contraction of *jugista (adv.), superl. of adj. *jugos “closely connected,” from stem of jugum “yoke,” from jungere “to join” (see jugular).
Juxtaposition is a very unsafe criterion of continuity.
–Hare. [1913 Webster]
[blockquote]neither Father Harmon nor the ABC singled out any Primate or group of Primates[/blockquote]
and no one said they did.
[blockquote]Therefore, the claims that this is only about Nigeria are false.[/blockquote]
and no one made that claim.
[blockquote]Colin Coward et all [sic, should be [i]al[/i]] are lying[/blockquote]
and no one made that accusation (but they did say that he was transparently trying to impugn ABp Akinola and the other GAFCon bishops by false insinuation).
[blockquote]that father Harmon or Archbishop Williams ever said anything at all that accused the Primate of Nigeria or the Primates associated with GAFCON.[/blockquote]
A veritable straw man army!
WVEpiscopalian, maybe I misunderstood you. It seemed that speaking of Archbishop Akinola you pasted a quote and said, “where he uses terminology that says homosexuals are beneath animals and are mentally ill.” Was that what you say or are you quoting someone else? If you are quoting someone else, I apologize for attributing it to you. If that is indeed your interpretation, then I am confused by your clarification in post 45.