The truth of the matter is that when one figures time spent traveling door-to-door, air travel doesn’t begin to make sense anymore until one’s journey is 400-500 miles. That, plus the ordeal and humiliation of early arrival demands, security checkpoints, delays, overbooked flights, overscheduled takeoffs and landings, etc. have made flying a supremely unattractive option unless absolutely required.
I used to actually enjoy air travel back when it was a relaxing way to get from point A to point B. No longer. Now, I avoid it at all costs. I opt for driving a couple of days rather than flying if the trip is a domestic one. Unfortunately, there’s no longer regular transatlantic sea travel available so I’m forced to fly when going overseas. The ordeal of present day air travel has really altered the way my family plans it vacations and other travel.
Evan, I’m with you! The price of gas is a small one to pay compared with having to tolerate the increasingly bad service. If my wife and I fly nowadays, we fly with Frontier……even if they have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. We’ve had nothing but good service from them. Never again will we fly with American; we’ve had trouble with them before!
Speaking of vacations: There are a lot of places to visit here in Northern California, the north coast is gorgeous……worth the drive and the expense! Long weekends in the Fall? Wonderful!
My wife’s dad is a retired VP from Burlington Northern. He started out working with the Great Northern. That means the wife grew up taking the train every summer from St. Paul to Whitefish, MT to visit family. I reluctantly came into the “train” fold, thinking it would take forever to get anywhere. Now I’m hooked, especially for vacations. Yes, it takes longer, but I’m usually more relaxed and ready to “vacation” when I get there. Look into it. If you have the time, trains can be a very civilized way to move around the country!
I’m not with the airlines, but I think we need to give them a break. The people have asked for cheap transportation for the masses — not the elite service of yesteryear. That commodity job is what they are trying to do now. Air travel is now 10x to 20x cheaper than when I was a kid, in real dollars. Back then it took 2 days to go NY to LA, for $15,000 in today’s money. My first trip to Europe was on a super connie, We only had to make one fuel stop (Gander) and only took about 15 hours.
Now the airlines are stuck with out of control fuel prices — tripled over two years, and losing money — $3 million per day losses for American. On top of this they have all the 9-11 fall-out. Maybe, with all the stress they are under, they are doing the best they can. They are still maintaining a terrific safety record. Almost nil fatalities, compared to what on the highways, maybe 50,000 deaths this year?
Yes, they will continue to have breakdowns. Overall, they deserve some credit for moving a lot of people, cheaply, and safely, under a lot of stress on their system.
#4
I’ve given a good deal of thought to a trip out there, though it’s a LONG way from Kentucky. Might be worth it just to worship in a good anglo-Catholic church.
#6
I’ve always loved train travel and have been from KY to DC on the George Washington and from KY to California and back on the Santa Fe Chief and the California Zephyr back in the 60s when they were really superb. Alas, the routes are so limited now, there are few options, although I believe that excepting the George Washington, the trains mentioned still run.
I didn’t read or watch the video to see the whole story. But try to be reasonable. A New York to Florida flight is not a really long one, so, since it says the flight crew were late, most likely they came in on another flight. They have a few tasks to take care of on the plane they’re leaving, and then they have to walk to the gate for the new flight, and if the first flight was late to begin with, they really are not personally at fault. I fail to see how people being rude to them on the next flight is going to help at all. So here, a few jerks got pushy with the crew and got the flight cancelled for everybody. Nice work, jerks.
I dunno…people flying into LaGuardia from Miami…probably a good number of Noo Yawkahs on the flight…New Yorkers getting agitated and ugly, using obscene language and gestures?
I agree with not flying unless necessary. It has become a very unpleasant way to get from point A to B. Cabin flight crews get more and more surly, and gate agents tend to be the same. It’s as if they are paying us to fly with them………………A lot of the problems the airlines, most of them, have brought upon themselves. The real dinosaurs, AA, NWA, United to name a few, are particularly bad. All they had to do was tell the waiting people what the holdup was; if it was a late flight, I think most would have understood. However, in true dinosaur fashion, they did not, and people were irritated. The public is sick and tired of being treated like cattle, although flying now is like being in a cattle car.
I am amazed that the airline can get away with punishing the many for the sins of the few. Hardly justice, is it? Also something of a selfish over-reaction from the staff who felt threatened. My goodness. Here in the rectory we give out food to the homeless seven days a week. Something like once a week there is something unpleasant said to me – two weeks ago the packet of sandwiches was thrown in my face because the man really wanted money. Yes, of course I wondered whether we should call a halt to the daily distribution. But then I thought, why should the many who are grateful suffer because there are some who are unpleasant?
i travel often for work.
it’s become my personal policy to not ever have connecting flights if i can fly somewhere within a 4-hour drive of my destination, and i rent a car for the duration of the trip. most airlines can get luggage right and timing – well, within reason – right for one leg. it’s the layovers and transfers that caused me to age decades [until i learned to relinquish control, that is.. ].. so now, lots of fun miles in fun rental cars.
One time I was flying Tel-Aviv to NY via Paris. They announced in English on the plane as it was landing in Paris that we would have to change planes and there would be an attendent outside the plane to assist us. When I got off there was no attendent and no one who spoke English. I set off by myself to find the terminal where they said the next leg of the flight was going to leave from. Wandered all over heck and back. Got to the terminal upset and somewhat panicy (I had four animals on the flight and was afraid that either I they would miss it) but apparently just in time. There were a bunch of other Americans from the flight there too.
“Sorry….you misunderstood, the flight is the same plane, just continuing on. And you better get back to the terminal fast because it’s leaving in 10 minutes.”
Absolute hysteria trying to get back to the terminal (also no help or directions to do so). Sprinting down the terminal carrying 50 pounds of baggage, about to pass out, literally. Thirty of us late for the flight. They announce that because so many passengers were tardy in returning to the plane it’s going to be delayed for 1/2 hour. (See…the other passengers can hate us now.)
I went over and said to an airline official “This plane is not tardy because we were late. You made an error in your announcement about the terminal and in the fact that there was NO person at the gate to help us, contrary to what you stated. If you don’t have the decency to apologize, please don’t publically blame the passengers.”
His response: “We only seem to have trouble with passengers flying between Tel-Aviv and New York.”
My response: “If you’re saying that only NY Jews complain, please alter your statistics to note that I’m an Irish Catholic.”
Having been caught out in his racism (or maybe afraid of Irish Catholics :)) he then had the decency to look embarassed and offered a half-hearted apology.
Yep, harrassing your flight crew. Always a good idea when you’re stuck in a flying fuel tube and that same flight crew is responsible for keeping you alive.
It got to the point when I was in seminary in Chicago and was going to go fly down to Knoxville, TN, to see my folks, what with waiting around the airport for the “pre-board” (I never quite figured out what that was), fly to connecting city, wait around again, flying to destination from connecting city, it was literally quicker to drive.
And then you have to sit through the federally mandated insult to your intelligence where they have to explain to you the workings of a seatbelt.
Argh…and they wonder why the airlines are going bankrupt.
What’s up with American and their late flight crews? This happened to friends from Canada just a few weeks ago when they flew here to Dallas to visit me. They had no pilot or flight crew and had to wait two hours.
The story doesn’t offer much detail but I’m sure I can fill in the blanks as to why the passengers were agitated. They were loaded onto the plane as if takeoff was right on schedule. And there they sat for an hour or more without air conditioning or refreshments. This is fairly common and the reason I always packed drinks and snacks in my carry-on, just in case. More often than not, we needed them. Now, though, you can’t take liquids and such through security and are stuck with airport food/prices.
For Pete’s sake, airlines, don’t board the passengers until you are certain there’s a pilot and crew there! Or, if there’s going to be an entirely unexpected delay, allow the passengers to deplane, with the caveat that they’d best be back before the plane is ready to leave or it’s tough luck. My elderly mum wound up with pneumonia after being forced to sit on a plane for two hours without heat in Boston in the middle of winter. This practice just isn’t cool.
The airlines are being paid for a service. If they can’t deliver that service as promised that is not the passengers’ fault and they should expect some hostile reactions. If safety was not an issue in this instance and the airline crew had no justification for canceling the flight. The most they could do is eject any passengers who would not accept a reasonable apology and settle down for the flight.
This whole thing is so indicative of society in general today. The problem is a drop in morality at all levels. No one cares about their jobs anymore, just the money they make. Does anyone have loyalty to an employer these days? Not likely!
Most service people I encounter are very non-courteous to me as a customer. I ask a simple question, and I either get told a lie, or they just brush me off (if they’ve even bothered to acknowledge my existence at all while I wait for service). So many service people in today’s service areas really don’t know what they need to know to do their jobs competently. They don’t want to take the effort and humility required to admit they don’t know and find out the TRUE answer to your question, so they’ll just make something up and send you on a wild goose chase.
The lateness of the crew in this instance is not an unusual thing in today’s society either. I don’t know the circumstances of why they were late, BUT the passengers definitely deserved an honest explanation and apology for this lateness. That was not forthcoming, from what the reports say. I encounter people being less and less concerned about lateness nowadays. I see it everywhere. They just saunter in whenever they feel like it, and when they arrive wherever they are supposed to be, then don’t acknowledge the fact that they are late, don’t apologize, and often even stir up a lot of noise and other disruptions to those waiting for them to arrive. THAT is where the problem is.
In my own personal experience, most people don’t just fly off the handle for no reason. Anger needs provocation. Most people just want to be treated respectfully. Traveling is tiresome and can wear on one’s patience. I sincerely believe that the root cause of the anger manifested in this situation began with the crew being so late. I know that I would be angry too if I was a passenger in that situation. The airline staff are constantly in communication with one another. You can be certain the staff at the check-in counter knew the flight was late if it was due to an in-coming flight. If that was indeed the case, they owed it to the passengers to inform them in a polite manner that the crew was arriving on an incoming flight that was delayed, and to apologize for the delay. I’m certain that would have avoided the anger from most involved. If the crew was not delayed on an incoming flight, then they owed the passengers a very BIG explanation. These people have lives too, and had other people expecting to pick them up at their destinations, places to be, etc. It’s only common courtesy to be considerate of their needs too.
If it was indeed a case of the crew being late from personal lack of judgment, and not due to an incoming flight delay, the airlines needed to handle that appropriately. The passengers were not at fault. The crew should have not have been allowed to cause a flight to be totally canceled in either case. That makes no sense at all. The airlines needed to exert their authority on the behalf of the passengers and replace the crew if necessary. There just seems to be a whole lot wrong with this picture that leads right back to both the crew and American Airlines, as a whole.
#17. Mike, You have a great point. It is about as productive as arguing with, and agitating, the barber while he is shaving your neck.
Airlines do provide a service, and while not perfect it is really not all that bad. Sure, out of my last 500 commercial flights, my bag has been a day late in getting to me three times (all international); there have been half a dozen delays for weather, with one night spent on the floor at Denver International (fog); and a couple of emergency landings (Dallas and London). That said, there was absolutely no easier or cheaper way to cover that million-plus miles.
Now about service. I know that all of us appreciate the excellent service we get from our:
1. Car “check engine light” and garage that can’t turn it off.
2. Milk and egg delivery man.
3. Bread delivery man.
4. Dry cleaning delivery man.
5. Software service and blue screens of death.
6. Public school system.
7. Elected officials.
8. Corporate governance.
9. Hotels. (The last time I left my shoes outside the hotel door to be shined overnight, they were stolen.)
10. Last, but not least, TEC, for gut-wrenchingly heterodox services.
Ah yes, good service, we get it everywhere but the dratted old airlines. Especially, at the SERVICE station. While they pump my gas, they always check the fluid levels, air the tires, and wash ALL the windows. (For younger readers of this blog, that was the norm for a service station in the 1960’s. Furthermore, after filling the tank
they brought you back a little change from your five dollar bill!)
We are living in a new age. Airlines are trying to economize in every way possible, in response to public demand for dirt-cheap fares. There are no standby crews or aircraft. You simply may have to wait for one, if there are weather or equipment delays.
Here are two hints:
1. Try to fly early in the day.
2. Smile a lot at the crew, especially at the gate and going into the cabin. A kind word is usually appreciated. Pray for them a little from time to time. 99% of the time you will be rewarded with a smile back and better services. Most of these people are really nice and are sometimes laboring under difficult circumstances.
“most people don’t just fly off the handle for no reason. Anger needs provocation. Most people just want to be treated respectfully. Traveling is tiresome and can wear on one’s patience. I sincerely believe that the root cause of the anger manifested in this situation began with the crew being so late”
Indeed. Flight crews are human too. They are being asked to fly back to back, and when flights are late, this impacts their ability to deal with child care family responsibilities also. They too are tired. (More tired than the passengers, who have the ability to rest on the plane or in the seats in the terminal). However the public demands low air fares. This results in lowered staff levels and increased work done by fewer and fewer people. (And no, they don’t learn when the plane will _really_ take off either. It depends on what is happening to the folks in Engineering, and if you contact them, you will slow them down, and have them make mistakes.
Passengers should suck it up. (Or not travel any further than their local fishing hole). Or schedule in an extra day for delays. That used to be normal 40 years ago, (and I am old enough to remember sleeping on my suitcase in a filthy airport for 18 hours until my mother managed to charm 3 strangers into giving up their seats in order to get her tired kids on the plane for the final leg home.
We have been spoiled by good times. These are bad times.
24. BTW I have no connection with the travel industry. However I do recognize chronic fatigue when I see it. Those guys work hard. We in the airport sit on our fannies in comfy chairs. The folks in the wrong were the New Yorkers throwing tantrums. The airline was correct to cancel the flight rather than take a bunch of hooligan crybabies into the air
I do have empathy for the airlines and their employees, but flying is simply no longer any fun. In addition to the tension among both airline employees and passengers that so many have described on this thread, the planes themselves are not often well climate controlled, and are very stuffy, which quickly leaves me with a headache. The lines are long at the airports, and noise levels are high. It seems that the incidence of bad weather has increased over the past decade or so, making delays more common. I do give myself and extra day to get back before I have to be at work.
After trips from Birmingham to Toronto, Phoenix and Minneapolis in rapid succession, I actually enjoyed the Birmingham to Tucson 1580 mile drive in my car: great legroom, comfy seats, could adhere to my own schedule, and could haul all I wanted without baggage fees. And I found that my gas mileage wasn’t half bad!
During a recent flight home from Charleston to Los Angeles my nose began to bleed as we were landing in Charlotte, NC, where I was to board a connecting flight. I was ushered off the airplane before anyone else was allowed to deplane. A wheelchauir awaited me and a medical technician was there to take my blood pressure. It was determined that I should see a doctor, but I had two hours before the next flight left, so it seemed there was plenty of time to get my problem under control. They did not want my medical problem to cause them a problem at 35,000 feet and necessitate an unscheduled landing to get medical aid for me. An airline representative was assigned to help me get to an urgent care center to see a doctor. Taxis were made available (even a limousine at one point) at no charge to me. Of course, it took longer than two hours, but I was never left alone until I had seen a doctor, and then the attendant worked with the airline ticket agent who wrote a new ticket for me. When she was assured that I would be fine on the next flight out, only then did she leave me. I cannot thank that airline enough for their consideration for me and for their concern for the passengers on the connecting flight I missed. She reassured me that my problem was a minor one — she deals with much more serious ones every day, she said — and at no charge to the passenger in distress. Yes, I have waited for crews who were late, but it never once crossed my mind that they had to be rounded up in a bar and brought to the terminal. I just knew that in the transportation industry things sometime can go wrong. Perhaps an unscheduled landing for a patient in distress. If you fly often you are bound to get on a flight that has a problem. I agree that the airline could and should have made an announcement that would have calmed everyone down. But I do believe in this instance the tardiness of the crew was most likely unavoidable.
Gate agents do not always know why a flight crew is not present or why a flight is being delayed. In this particular case, it is highly unlikely that the gate agents had any idea. [url=http://www.nbc5i.com/news/16825794/detail.html]This link[/url] will answer a lot of questions about what happened. If either the video report originally posted or the link I’ve provided are at all accurate, then I have zero sympathy for the misbehaving passengers. It would be unsafe for the flight crew to allow a bunch of people behaving like that to get in the plane and endanger crew, themselves, and other passengers. This flight crew had a clear duty to refuse to fly.
#24, yes, I’m sure the crew were tired, too. I never said I entirely blamed them. BUT, I do have concerns about the way the airline handled the whole thing. The point that is bothering me is this: when the crew did not arrive on time, the staff at the check-in desk should have been pursuing the cause of this. The passengers should have been notified ASAP as to what the problem was. There was no mention of this having been done.
I still believe that anger needs provocation. In my own personal experience, most people will respond more favorably to problems if they are treated with respect. If indeed the passengers were left wondering for that whole delay of 1 and 1/4 hours just where the crew was, then that was a problem.
I also agree with a couple of comments above that the airline would have handled it better by denying access to the plane to anyone who was violent. I just don’t believe it was right to cancel the entire flight for a whole day due to those out of control.
So, yes, there are problems on all sides. Passengers need to be more understanding of the chaos the world is in today. The customs department needed to make more effort to get crews headed onto imminent flights through their department much faster (It makes sense to me that they should have a separate entry area for flight crew). The desk crew should have pursued the cause of the lateness of the crew. Clearly they were in the vicinity. Whatever happened to cell phones? It seems people can’t stop chattering on them everywhere else. Why weren’t the crew on their own cell phones to notify the check-in staff of the problem? Even a quick call to the airlines desk by one of the crew would have alerted them of the problem so the check-in desk could have been made aware (You can be certain they knew what gate they needed to be at by then). (For me, personally, it’s a good practice to call ahead and let someone know you are going to be late, even for things of much lesser magnitude than this case. It’s just good manners.) If indeed the check-in desk staff was aware of the reason for the delay, they needed to announce the reason for the delay to the passengers. I’ve been on delayed flights due to numerous reasons. No, it’s not fun, but as long as the airlines communicate with me, I’m fine with it. If delays keep stretching out beyond what’s been announced and no reason is given, then yes, I’m likely to become concerned and start asking questions. I’m in no way condoning the violent behavior of some of the passengers. That was unacceptable. BUT, there were many problems with just this one instance that show how the airline needs to re-evaluate its practices. There are lots of problems with this whole picture that need to be addressed seriously.
One big problem is scheduling crews on flights so close together. That’s a problem waiting to happen. Some comments above mention scheduling out more time around the flights by the passengers. Well, the same needs to apply to the scheduling of the crew by the airlines. They need to allow for things like customs delays, planes requiring emergency landings prior to their destination, weather at other airports affecting takeoff, etc. There are umpteen million reasons why it’s just plain STUPID to schedule crews on flights so close together.
29. A big reason why crew times are very closely scheduled is to save you money on tickets. Crews are limited by the FAA as to how many hours they can be on duty, including time between flight segments. Extra time between legs could knock out the ability of the airline to use the crew for the last leg of the day. Increase the crew costs and you increase the ticket cost. The airlines are really trying to cut to the bone.
For those not so worried about costs, get a Netjet, or Flexjet subscription. Then a private jet will fly you coast to coast. Buy-in on Flexjet runs $149,500 for 25 hours in the air to be used within the year. That means each coast to coast round trip will run about $50,000. Of course you can take 6 people. You will get respect and service you would not believe. The airlines just cannot provide that level of service for us $600 ticket people.
We have demanded cheap — we are getting cheap. Sometimes it works better than others.
Wow. There’s a lot of anger here. When you travel, schedule reasonable layovers to allow for late fights, pack a change of underwear and shirt, and be prepared to cope with changes. Be polite to security and airline personnel. It will pay dividends.
And … don’t fly through de Gaulle airport, Paris. Find another route. Been there, done that.
31. Katherine, You are so right. My first flight was in the ’40’s and coach tickets were really expensive — $3,000 to $5,000 (first class $10,000 to 15,000) in today’s money. Further, that was when avgas (no jets then) was a dime a gallon. Of course we flew in suit and tie — even teens. Today, people fly practically free and do nothing but whine about it. My great grandparents walked from South Carolina to Texas to relocate. It was no vacation. My mother rode a horse to school. It was no sport.
I am really thankful for the safe, cheap airline travel these days. A few years ago, I had a flight delayed overnight in Japan, but still got from the East Coast to China in two days — remarkable. For my greatgrandparents it would have been a one-year round trip by sailing ship.
The airlines are not perfect. They are not skilled in dealing with passenger riots. Such riots are probably a one in hundred thousand occurance. Airlines are streched beyond the limit and losing money every day to bring cheap efficient service to an increasingly ungrateful mob.
Your suggestions are right on and if people do not come around to embrace them, there will be more cancellations. With the price of oil tripled there is no way airlines can run much longer without at least doubling the fares. Sad.
—
N.B. I have never worked for an airline or in the travel business. I have done a lot of flying, even on the old airlines like Seaboard and World, Capitol, and of course TWA and Pan Am.
Funny, if the passenger shows up late, the plane is on time and no refund.
The truth of the matter is that when one figures time spent traveling door-to-door, air travel doesn’t begin to make sense anymore until one’s journey is 400-500 miles. That, plus the ordeal and humiliation of early arrival demands, security checkpoints, delays, overbooked flights, overscheduled takeoffs and landings, etc. have made flying a supremely unattractive option unless absolutely required.
I used to actually enjoy air travel back when it was a relaxing way to get from point A to point B. No longer. Now, I avoid it at all costs. I opt for driving a couple of days rather than flying if the trip is a domestic one. Unfortunately, there’s no longer regular transatlantic sea travel available so I’m forced to fly when going overseas. The ordeal of present day air travel has really altered the way my family plans it vacations and other travel.
Evan, I’m with you! The price of gas is a small one to pay compared with having to tolerate the increasingly bad service. If my wife and I fly nowadays, we fly with Frontier……even if they have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. We’ve had nothing but good service from them. Never again will we fly with American; we’ve had trouble with them before!
Speaking of vacations: There are a lot of places to visit here in Northern California, the north coast is gorgeous……worth the drive and the expense! Long weekends in the Fall? Wonderful!
I am doing the same thing. Flying is not fun, but rather an ordeal. The 400-500 mile rule is a good one. The total travel time is about the same.
My wife’s dad is a retired VP from Burlington Northern. He started out working with the Great Northern. That means the wife grew up taking the train every summer from St. Paul to Whitefish, MT to visit family. I reluctantly came into the “train” fold, thinking it would take forever to get anywhere. Now I’m hooked, especially for vacations. Yes, it takes longer, but I’m usually more relaxed and ready to “vacation” when I get there. Look into it. If you have the time, trains can be a very civilized way to move around the country!
Brian
I’m not with the airlines, but I think we need to give them a break. The people have asked for cheap transportation for the masses — not the elite service of yesteryear. That commodity job is what they are trying to do now. Air travel is now 10x to 20x cheaper than when I was a kid, in real dollars. Back then it took 2 days to go NY to LA, for $15,000 in today’s money. My first trip to Europe was on a super connie, We only had to make one fuel stop (Gander) and only took about 15 hours.
Now the airlines are stuck with out of control fuel prices — tripled over two years, and losing money — $3 million per day losses for American. On top of this they have all the 9-11 fall-out. Maybe, with all the stress they are under, they are doing the best they can. They are still maintaining a terrific safety record. Almost nil fatalities, compared to what on the highways, maybe 50,000 deaths this year?
Yes, they will continue to have breakdowns. Overall, they deserve some credit for moving a lot of people, cheaply, and safely, under a lot of stress on their system.
Since airplanes are cattle transports, the airlines feel offended that passengers don’t act like contented cows.
Try showing up that late at another job and see how long you keep it.
#4
I’ve given a good deal of thought to a trip out there, though it’s a LONG way from Kentucky. Might be worth it just to worship in a good anglo-Catholic church.
#6
I’ve always loved train travel and have been from KY to DC on the George Washington and from KY to California and back on the Santa Fe Chief and the California Zephyr back in the 60s when they were really superb. Alas, the routes are so limited now, there are few options, although I believe that excepting the George Washington, the trains mentioned still run.
I didn’t read or watch the video to see the whole story. But try to be reasonable. A New York to Florida flight is not a really long one, so, since it says the flight crew were late, most likely they came in on another flight. They have a few tasks to take care of on the plane they’re leaving, and then they have to walk to the gate for the new flight, and if the first flight was late to begin with, they really are not personally at fault. I fail to see how people being rude to them on the next flight is going to help at all. So here, a few jerks got pushy with the crew and got the flight cancelled for everybody. Nice work, jerks.
I dunno…people flying into LaGuardia from Miami…probably a good number of Noo Yawkahs on the flight…New Yorkers getting agitated and ugly, using obscene language and gestures?
I’m shocked, I tell you! Shocked!
I agree with not flying unless necessary. It has become a very unpleasant way to get from point A to B. Cabin flight crews get more and more surly, and gate agents tend to be the same. It’s as if they are paying us to fly with them………………A lot of the problems the airlines, most of them, have brought upon themselves. The real dinosaurs, AA, NWA, United to name a few, are particularly bad. All they had to do was tell the waiting people what the holdup was; if it was a late flight, I think most would have understood. However, in true dinosaur fashion, they did not, and people were irritated. The public is sick and tired of being treated like cattle, although flying now is like being in a cattle car.
I am amazed that the airline can get away with punishing the many for the sins of the few. Hardly justice, is it? Also something of a selfish over-reaction from the staff who felt threatened. My goodness. Here in the rectory we give out food to the homeless seven days a week. Something like once a week there is something unpleasant said to me – two weeks ago the packet of sandwiches was thrown in my face because the man really wanted money. Yes, of course I wondered whether we should call a halt to the daily distribution. But then I thought, why should the many who are grateful suffer because there are some who are unpleasant?
i travel often for work.
it’s become my personal policy to not ever have connecting flights if i can fly somewhere within a 4-hour drive of my destination, and i rent a car for the duration of the trip. most airlines can get luggage right and timing – well, within reason – right for one leg. it’s the layovers and transfers that caused me to age decades [until i learned to relinquish control, that is.. ].. so now, lots of fun miles in fun rental cars.
One time I was flying Tel-Aviv to NY via Paris. They announced in English on the plane as it was landing in Paris that we would have to change planes and there would be an attendent outside the plane to assist us. When I got off there was no attendent and no one who spoke English. I set off by myself to find the terminal where they said the next leg of the flight was going to leave from. Wandered all over heck and back. Got to the terminal upset and somewhat panicy (I had four animals on the flight and was afraid that either I they would miss it) but apparently just in time. There were a bunch of other Americans from the flight there too.
“Sorry….you misunderstood, the flight is the same plane, just continuing on. And you better get back to the terminal fast because it’s leaving in 10 minutes.”
Absolute hysteria trying to get back to the terminal (also no help or directions to do so). Sprinting down the terminal carrying 50 pounds of baggage, about to pass out, literally. Thirty of us late for the flight. They announce that because so many passengers were tardy in returning to the plane it’s going to be delayed for 1/2 hour. (See…the other passengers can hate us now.)
I went over and said to an airline official “This plane is not tardy because we were late. You made an error in your announcement about the terminal and in the fact that there was NO person at the gate to help us, contrary to what you stated. If you don’t have the decency to apologize, please don’t publically blame the passengers.”
His response: “We only seem to have trouble with passengers flying between Tel-Aviv and New York.”
My response: “If you’re saying that only NY Jews complain, please alter your statistics to note that I’m an Irish Catholic.”
Having been caught out in his racism (or maybe afraid of Irish Catholics :)) he then had the decency to look embarassed and offered a half-hearted apology.
Yep, harrassing your flight crew. Always a good idea when you’re stuck in a flying fuel tube and that same flight crew is responsible for keeping you alive.
Right on, No. 2.
It got to the point when I was in seminary in Chicago and was going to go fly down to Knoxville, TN, to see my folks, what with waiting around the airport for the “pre-board” (I never quite figured out what that was), fly to connecting city, wait around again, flying to destination from connecting city, it was literally quicker to drive.
And then you have to sit through the federally mandated insult to your intelligence where they have to explain to you the workings of a seatbelt.
Argh…and they wonder why the airlines are going bankrupt.
What’s up with American and their late flight crews? This happened to friends from Canada just a few weeks ago when they flew here to Dallas to visit me. They had no pilot or flight crew and had to wait two hours.
The story doesn’t offer much detail but I’m sure I can fill in the blanks as to why the passengers were agitated. They were loaded onto the plane as if takeoff was right on schedule. And there they sat for an hour or more without air conditioning or refreshments. This is fairly common and the reason I always packed drinks and snacks in my carry-on, just in case. More often than not, we needed them. Now, though, you can’t take liquids and such through security and are stuck with airport food/prices.
For Pete’s sake, airlines, don’t board the passengers until you are certain there’s a pilot and crew there! Or, if there’s going to be an entirely unexpected delay, allow the passengers to deplane, with the caveat that they’d best be back before the plane is ready to leave or it’s tough luck. My elderly mum wound up with pneumonia after being forced to sit on a plane for two hours without heat in Boston in the middle of winter. This practice just isn’t cool.
The airlines are being paid for a service. If they can’t deliver that service as promised that is not the passengers’ fault and they should expect some hostile reactions. If safety was not an issue in this instance and the airline crew had no justification for canceling the flight. The most they could do is eject any passengers who would not accept a reasonable apology and settle down for the flight.
#14. Terry, Why the amazement? Billions are punished for the sin of two! — Stan
This whole thing is so indicative of society in general today. The problem is a drop in morality at all levels. No one cares about their jobs anymore, just the money they make. Does anyone have loyalty to an employer these days? Not likely!
Most service people I encounter are very non-courteous to me as a customer. I ask a simple question, and I either get told a lie, or they just brush me off (if they’ve even bothered to acknowledge my existence at all while I wait for service). So many service people in today’s service areas really don’t know what they need to know to do their jobs competently. They don’t want to take the effort and humility required to admit they don’t know and find out the TRUE answer to your question, so they’ll just make something up and send you on a wild goose chase.
The lateness of the crew in this instance is not an unusual thing in today’s society either. I don’t know the circumstances of why they were late, BUT the passengers definitely deserved an honest explanation and apology for this lateness. That was not forthcoming, from what the reports say. I encounter people being less and less concerned about lateness nowadays. I see it everywhere. They just saunter in whenever they feel like it, and when they arrive wherever they are supposed to be, then don’t acknowledge the fact that they are late, don’t apologize, and often even stir up a lot of noise and other disruptions to those waiting for them to arrive. THAT is where the problem is.
In my own personal experience, most people don’t just fly off the handle for no reason. Anger needs provocation. Most people just want to be treated respectfully. Traveling is tiresome and can wear on one’s patience. I sincerely believe that the root cause of the anger manifested in this situation began with the crew being so late. I know that I would be angry too if I was a passenger in that situation. The airline staff are constantly in communication with one another. You can be certain the staff at the check-in counter knew the flight was late if it was due to an in-coming flight. If that was indeed the case, they owed it to the passengers to inform them in a polite manner that the crew was arriving on an incoming flight that was delayed, and to apologize for the delay. I’m certain that would have avoided the anger from most involved. If the crew was not delayed on an incoming flight, then they owed the passengers a very BIG explanation. These people have lives too, and had other people expecting to pick them up at their destinations, places to be, etc. It’s only common courtesy to be considerate of their needs too.
If it was indeed a case of the crew being late from personal lack of judgment, and not due to an incoming flight delay, the airlines needed to handle that appropriately. The passengers were not at fault. The crew should have not have been allowed to cause a flight to be totally canceled in either case. That makes no sense at all. The airlines needed to exert their authority on the behalf of the passengers and replace the crew if necessary. There just seems to be a whole lot wrong with this picture that leads right back to both the crew and American Airlines, as a whole.
#17. Mike, You have a great point. It is about as productive as arguing with, and agitating, the barber while he is shaving your neck.
Airlines do provide a service, and while not perfect it is really not all that bad. Sure, out of my last 500 commercial flights, my bag has been a day late in getting to me three times (all international); there have been half a dozen delays for weather, with one night spent on the floor at Denver International (fog); and a couple of emergency landings (Dallas and London). That said, there was absolutely no easier or cheaper way to cover that million-plus miles.
Now about service. I know that all of us appreciate the excellent service we get from our:
1. Car “check engine light” and garage that can’t turn it off.
2. Milk and egg delivery man.
3. Bread delivery man.
4. Dry cleaning delivery man.
5. Software service and blue screens of death.
6. Public school system.
7. Elected officials.
8. Corporate governance.
9. Hotels. (The last time I left my shoes outside the hotel door to be shined overnight, they were stolen.)
10. Last, but not least, TEC, for gut-wrenchingly heterodox services.
Ah yes, good service, we get it everywhere but the dratted old airlines. Especially, at the SERVICE station. While they pump my gas, they always check the fluid levels, air the tires, and wash ALL the windows. (For younger readers of this blog, that was the norm for a service station in the 1960’s. Furthermore, after filling the tank
they brought you back a little change from your five dollar bill!)
We are living in a new age. Airlines are trying to economize in every way possible, in response to public demand for dirt-cheap fares. There are no standby crews or aircraft. You simply may have to wait for one, if there are weather or equipment delays.
Here are two hints:
1. Try to fly early in the day.
2. Smile a lot at the crew, especially at the gate and going into the cabin. A kind word is usually appreciated. Pray for them a little from time to time. 99% of the time you will be rewarded with a smile back and better services. Most of these people are really nice and are sometimes laboring under difficult circumstances.
“most people don’t just fly off the handle for no reason. Anger needs provocation. Most people just want to be treated respectfully. Traveling is tiresome and can wear on one’s patience. I sincerely believe that the root cause of the anger manifested in this situation began with the crew being so late”
Indeed. Flight crews are human too. They are being asked to fly back to back, and when flights are late, this impacts their ability to deal with child care family responsibilities also. They too are tired. (More tired than the passengers, who have the ability to rest on the plane or in the seats in the terminal). However the public demands low air fares. This results in lowered staff levels and increased work done by fewer and fewer people. (And no, they don’t learn when the plane will _really_ take off either. It depends on what is happening to the folks in Engineering, and if you contact them, you will slow them down, and have them make mistakes.
Passengers should suck it up. (Or not travel any further than their local fishing hole). Or schedule in an extra day for delays. That used to be normal 40 years ago, (and I am old enough to remember sleeping on my suitcase in a filthy airport for 18 hours until my mother managed to charm 3 strangers into giving up their seats in order to get her tired kids on the plane for the final leg home.
We have been spoiled by good times. These are bad times.
24. BTW I have no connection with the travel industry. However I do recognize chronic fatigue when I see it. Those guys work hard. We in the airport sit on our fannies in comfy chairs. The folks in the wrong were the New Yorkers throwing tantrums. The airline was correct to cancel the flight rather than take a bunch of hooligan crybabies into the air
I do have empathy for the airlines and their employees, but flying is simply no longer any fun. In addition to the tension among both airline employees and passengers that so many have described on this thread, the planes themselves are not often well climate controlled, and are very stuffy, which quickly leaves me with a headache. The lines are long at the airports, and noise levels are high. It seems that the incidence of bad weather has increased over the past decade or so, making delays more common. I do give myself and extra day to get back before I have to be at work.
After trips from Birmingham to Toronto, Phoenix and Minneapolis in rapid succession, I actually enjoyed the Birmingham to Tucson 1580 mile drive in my car: great legroom, comfy seats, could adhere to my own schedule, and could haul all I wanted without baggage fees. And I found that my gas mileage wasn’t half bad!
During a recent flight home from Charleston to Los Angeles my nose began to bleed as we were landing in Charlotte, NC, where I was to board a connecting flight. I was ushered off the airplane before anyone else was allowed to deplane. A wheelchauir awaited me and a medical technician was there to take my blood pressure. It was determined that I should see a doctor, but I had two hours before the next flight left, so it seemed there was plenty of time to get my problem under control. They did not want my medical problem to cause them a problem at 35,000 feet and necessitate an unscheduled landing to get medical aid for me. An airline representative was assigned to help me get to an urgent care center to see a doctor. Taxis were made available (even a limousine at one point) at no charge to me. Of course, it took longer than two hours, but I was never left alone until I had seen a doctor, and then the attendant worked with the airline ticket agent who wrote a new ticket for me. When she was assured that I would be fine on the next flight out, only then did she leave me. I cannot thank that airline enough for their consideration for me and for their concern for the passengers on the connecting flight I missed. She reassured me that my problem was a minor one — she deals with much more serious ones every day, she said — and at no charge to the passenger in distress. Yes, I have waited for crews who were late, but it never once crossed my mind that they had to be rounded up in a bar and brought to the terminal. I just knew that in the transportation industry things sometime can go wrong. Perhaps an unscheduled landing for a patient in distress. If you fly often you are bound to get on a flight that has a problem. I agree that the airline could and should have made an announcement that would have calmed everyone down. But I do believe in this instance the tardiness of the crew was most likely unavoidable.
Gate agents do not always know why a flight crew is not present or why a flight is being delayed. In this particular case, it is highly unlikely that the gate agents had any idea. [url=http://www.nbc5i.com/news/16825794/detail.html]This link[/url] will answer a lot of questions about what happened. If either the video report originally posted or the link I’ve provided are at all accurate, then I have zero sympathy for the misbehaving passengers. It would be unsafe for the flight crew to allow a bunch of people behaving like that to get in the plane and endanger crew, themselves, and other passengers. This flight crew had a clear duty to refuse to fly.
#24, yes, I’m sure the crew were tired, too. I never said I entirely blamed them. BUT, I do have concerns about the way the airline handled the whole thing. The point that is bothering me is this: when the crew did not arrive on time, the staff at the check-in desk should have been pursuing the cause of this. The passengers should have been notified ASAP as to what the problem was. There was no mention of this having been done.
I still believe that anger needs provocation. In my own personal experience, most people will respond more favorably to problems if they are treated with respect. If indeed the passengers were left wondering for that whole delay of 1 and 1/4 hours just where the crew was, then that was a problem.
I also agree with a couple of comments above that the airline would have handled it better by denying access to the plane to anyone who was violent. I just don’t believe it was right to cancel the entire flight for a whole day due to those out of control.
So, yes, there are problems on all sides. Passengers need to be more understanding of the chaos the world is in today. The customs department needed to make more effort to get crews headed onto imminent flights through their department much faster (It makes sense to me that they should have a separate entry area for flight crew). The desk crew should have pursued the cause of the lateness of the crew. Clearly they were in the vicinity. Whatever happened to cell phones? It seems people can’t stop chattering on them everywhere else. Why weren’t the crew on their own cell phones to notify the check-in staff of the problem? Even a quick call to the airlines desk by one of the crew would have alerted them of the problem so the check-in desk could have been made aware (You can be certain they knew what gate they needed to be at by then). (For me, personally, it’s a good practice to call ahead and let someone know you are going to be late, even for things of much lesser magnitude than this case. It’s just good manners.) If indeed the check-in desk staff was aware of the reason for the delay, they needed to announce the reason for the delay to the passengers. I’ve been on delayed flights due to numerous reasons. No, it’s not fun, but as long as the airlines communicate with me, I’m fine with it. If delays keep stretching out beyond what’s been announced and no reason is given, then yes, I’m likely to become concerned and start asking questions. I’m in no way condoning the violent behavior of some of the passengers. That was unacceptable. BUT, there were many problems with just this one instance that show how the airline needs to re-evaluate its practices. There are lots of problems with this whole picture that need to be addressed seriously.
One big problem is scheduling crews on flights so close together. That’s a problem waiting to happen. Some comments above mention scheduling out more time around the flights by the passengers. Well, the same needs to apply to the scheduling of the crew by the airlines. They need to allow for things like customs delays, planes requiring emergency landings prior to their destination, weather at other airports affecting takeoff, etc. There are umpteen million reasons why it’s just plain STUPID to schedule crews on flights so close together.
29. A big reason why crew times are very closely scheduled is to save you money on tickets. Crews are limited by the FAA as to how many hours they can be on duty, including time between flight segments. Extra time between legs could knock out the ability of the airline to use the crew for the last leg of the day. Increase the crew costs and you increase the ticket cost. The airlines are really trying to cut to the bone.
For those not so worried about costs, get a Netjet, or Flexjet subscription. Then a private jet will fly you coast to coast. Buy-in on Flexjet runs $149,500 for 25 hours in the air to be used within the year. That means each coast to coast round trip will run about $50,000. Of course you can take 6 people. You will get respect and service you would not believe. The airlines just cannot provide that level of service for us $600 ticket people.
We have demanded cheap — we are getting cheap. Sometimes it works better than others.
Wow. There’s a lot of anger here. When you travel, schedule reasonable layovers to allow for late fights, pack a change of underwear and shirt, and be prepared to cope with changes. Be polite to security and airline personnel. It will pay dividends.
And … don’t fly through de Gaulle airport, Paris. Find another route. Been there, done that.
31. Katherine, You are so right. My first flight was in the ’40’s and coach tickets were really expensive — $3,000 to $5,000 (first class $10,000 to 15,000) in today’s money. Further, that was when avgas (no jets then) was a dime a gallon. Of course we flew in suit and tie — even teens. Today, people fly practically free and do nothing but whine about it. My great grandparents walked from South Carolina to Texas to relocate. It was no vacation. My mother rode a horse to school. It was no sport.
I am really thankful for the safe, cheap airline travel these days. A few years ago, I had a flight delayed overnight in Japan, but still got from the East Coast to China in two days — remarkable. For my greatgrandparents it would have been a one-year round trip by sailing ship.
The airlines are not perfect. They are not skilled in dealing with passenger riots. Such riots are probably a one in hundred thousand occurance. Airlines are streched beyond the limit and losing money every day to bring cheap efficient service to an increasingly ungrateful mob.
Your suggestions are right on and if people do not come around to embrace them, there will be more cancellations. With the price of oil tripled there is no way airlines can run much longer without at least doubling the fares. Sad.
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N.B. I have never worked for an airline or in the travel business. I have done a lot of flying, even on the old airlines like Seaboard and World, Capitol, and of course TWA and Pan Am.