Dr Rowan Williams warned liberals who have elected a gay bishop and blessed same-sex unions that their actions are felt as a “body blow” by some, and create “literal physical risk” in countries where Christians are persecuted for tolerating homosexuality.
But he also told conservatives, some of whom have defected from their national churches in protest at the liberal developments, that their reactions are felt as an “annihilating judgement” that “pours scorn” on the whole church’s legitimacy.
He repeated his belief that only new rules and guiding bodies to set the boundaries for members of the 80 million-strong Communion can prevent “further disintegration”.
It is so easy to confess the sins of others…while ignoring one’s own contribution to the chaos.
The issue of the persecution Anglicans and other Christians face because of the actions of TEC and the Diocese of West Windsor are real indeed and should not be underestimated, but the ABC misses the point here still. Imagine how traditional Christians feel when the Bible is turned TOTALLY on its head and when things that Christians have understood as basic are turned inside out? This is ultimately a much bigger problem, and the ABC still doesn’t seem to get that. This isn’t ultimately about how we’re treating each other, that’s just NOT the issue. The issue is deeply theological, it’s about how we understand the Christian gospel. We don’t misunderstand each other, we understand each other only too well! The problem is that we completely disagree with each other, we have fundamental and irreconcilable differences in how we read, value, and understand the Bible. He keeps treating this whole situation as if it’s some great family misunderstanding. This is NOT helping the situation. He needs to stop telling us how we sound to each other and tell us where HE stands, and then lets get on with it! The usefulness of his summaries of what everyone thinks and how everyone sounds to the other side is at an end. The situation is frankly not being helped by his own inability to speak candidly from the heart about his OWN personal position as the ABC. This business of: “on the ONE hand . . .” and “on the OTHER hand,” is causing more harm than help. Is is also not helpful that his actions to date suggest that he is ultimately not willing to act when it comes to discipline. That reality gives me NO confidence in the latest proposals for either a covenant or a forum. History has shown that he will ultimately do nothing if agreements are violated. He doesn’t yet seem to grasp that events have moved us ALL beyond the solutions he is now proposing. It’s all too little and way too late!
Sorry, it’s hot, that’s Diocese of New Westminster!
I must agree with Chris. We didn’t start this and the solution of going along with whatever they do to preserve meaningless unity gets us nowhere.
Let us be absolutely clear on who made what choices: they are New Hampshire and the arrangers of the candidacy and election of VGR, Genereal Convention 2003 in their approval of VGR, then-PB Griswold’s lying to the assembled Primates at the emergency meeting prior to the “consecration” of VGR, the ‘bishops’ who “consecrated” VGR, and -not to forget to give messiah his due- VGR for choosing to be the gay bishop and not the simple country bishop of NH. That’s for the USA. Now who was it in Canada? Ingham and Hilz et alia. That should clear the air about who did what.
Imagine how traditional Christians feel when the Bible is turned TOTALLY on its head and when things that Christians have understood as basic are turned inside out?
I do wonder how much damage all this has caused – damage that we in the west don’t see.
It should also be noted that if you know the bridge is out and you keep silent, your silence = death.
Similarly, the Scriptures are quite clear the way of the lusts of the flesh will lead to unending destruction. Therefore, to speak this truth is not to threaten death to each other.
To say “Turn Back, O Man” are words of life, not death.
RW needs to have his mouth duct taped. Everything he has said for the last few years has been nothing but harmful. He has not said what we are all waiting for him to say, “I’m sorry. I blew it. I should have not sent those invitations out when I did. I should have let the Primates finish the work they started at DES. I should have honored their communique and honored the Sept 30 deadline. I should have not allowed the ACC to be involved in this. KJS was on that council and that made it a conflict of interest. I really blew it. I repent. Now I boldly say this: TEC, ACOC, and COE are excommunicated from the AC due to their actions against the beliefs of the entire church (effective immediately) until they reverse the actions they made which have hurt the AC. VGR will have to resign. All other clergy who are actively living in homosexual relationships will be immediately suspended. If after a period of 5 years they can prove to the church that they have remained celibate or have instead married members of the opposite sex as is recognized by God, and have not committed adultery, they will have their licenses returned to them. No clergy will be ordained or consecrated to leadership in any AC church unless they can show they have remained celibate and lived by the laws set out by God for a minimum period of 5 years. If they have been unable to live up to those requirements, then they must remain members only until such time as they can meet these requirements. There will be no “buts”, this is firm. Any provinces, dioceses, parishes, etc. within the AC which can prove they are following TRUE teachings as set out by the Bible will be recognized as in communion with Canterbury. The WHOLE church will be checked thoroughly and ALL must meet these requirements. ALL of these requirements are effective IMMEDIATELY and the acts will be set in motion IMMEDIATELY to enforce these requirements.”
CAN he do all of the above? Of course! Will he? Of course not! Hence, the duct tape.
What has heaped scorn on the whole church is the actions of TEC in accepting, condoning, even celebrating what God says is an abomination. That clearly labels the TEC as heretical. Especially the presiding bishop(?) VGR, and the group from integrity. I can’t even spell it with a capital letter. They have overthrown the Bible and Christian witness and want to take the whole communion with them. There are probably many good Christian people still left in TEC and I hop for their sake they open their eyes to see what has happened around them.
#9 just pray for the souls of those still in TEC who are deceived; that God will open their eyes and help them see the truth for what it is, so they will willingly leave on their own.
As intelligent as RW is supposed to be, I’d have thought he could give a better speech than this. As a leader, he should assume personal responsibility for what has happened on his watch, even if some of it was not directly his fault.
The speech reinforces the idea of an absolute dichotomy in this mess, and his assuming the persona of each “side” adds to that. Furthermore the things he he would have one side say to the other do not come across to me as words of healing.
At first glance, this doesn’t seem like it will go down as one of the great orations of history.
Ralph,
These are good points…and it seems to me that the middle too needs to accept some responsibility for their contribution of relative silence/inaction and its resulting consequences…in so many cases people have stepped forward into the fray only to find that those who convinced into the front lines had gone home to check on their pension accounts…
‘…He repeated his belief that only new rules and guiding bodies to set the boundaries for members of the 80 million-strong Communion can prevent “further disintegration”…’
And what will be done when the new rules are broken and the boundaries are crossed? I thought so…
I’m disappointed in what is not said here which I believe is the primary issue. RW does not even attempt to articulate the two differing views of Jesus Christ.
If I understand both sides correctly, the one believes that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, came to reveal the purposes of the Eternal God, and by his own death and resurrection break the powers of sin and evil in this world, in order to establish an eternal kingdom of justice and righteousness. The other believes that Jesus was fully human and divine, living as the ultimate example of God’s justice and mercy, and dying in order to call all people to a life of sacrificial love on behalf of the world, thus initiating the kingdom in the here and now.
In the one, homosexual behavior is a sinful action from which the truth sets one free. In the other, homosexual behavior is the expression of God’s love in one’s life to be sacrificially defended for the sake of justice among God’s creation. (I know that I have written rather simply and with a dangerously wide broad stroke, and apologize for not capturing the nuances of several variants of the above.)
RW failed to put on the table this kind of debate of core creedal theology. This is where the heart of the matter is–if I have misunderstood the theology of one side or the other, then there will be no way for me to understand their ethics, values and sense of call. This is where we can not compromise: who really is Jesus? What does it mean to call him the Christ, human, divine, savior, lord?
I wonder then how often these kinds of questions are being discussed in the morning studies of the I Am statements.
#10 Mugsie,
Thanks for the prayers but I must inform you that I pray, too, and God is not calling me out of TEC. I believe He wants me to remain and fight for this church which can become a worthy vehicle to Him and dispenser of His grace. Just because you were called differently doesn’t mean that the rest of us (and the Catholics, for you heap scorn on their church, as well) are blind, indifferent, or deluded.
#12, You know, I guess I’m actually one of those somewhere in the middle. In my own parish, this whole mess isn’t even a topic of serious discussion. Integrity chapter? What’s that?
Unlike you, we seem to have no present need for an African bishop. Unlike some in California (and elsewhere), we certainly have no need of a radical, malevolent bishop. Our bishop is doing his best to behave as if he were created in God’s image.
It’s probably too easy to keep our head buried in the sand while the desert around us is being turned into a sea of glass. Yet, if this whole mess can’t (or won’t) be sorted out by the assembled bishops of the Anglican Communion, then it’s an unholy mess – and I know that the tsunami might eventually reach the safe harbor of our parish, just as it came to Colo Spgs. The whole mess allows one to study how the devil infects individuals and groups by means of deception. Perhaps it also shows us how the devil feeds on the anger that he generates in good Christians.
Yet, as a layperson I have no idea what to do – except to recognize that God is somehow present in the maelstrom, and to pray, and to be thankful that we, at least, are holding together. Perhaps I am also quite thankful that I am not called to be a bishop! For sure, we are all being taught that ordination doesn’t confer immunity to diabolic influence.
Speaking of ordination, I’m concerned for those conservatives who are in the “process” of heading towards Holy Orders in TEC, and who will someday be required to take an oath to conform to the doctrine and discipline of TEC. One might view this with some horror, and I hope that they have someone who can listen to their fears.
Stay on the Path, and remember Matt 5:10. Truth will ultimately prevail.
#12 is closest to the important truth: The middle has talked and talked and done nothing. The broad based demand that TEC clean out its privy because the smell effected the whole neighborhood – this simply hasn’t been forthcoming. That is, there is no shortage of talk but no absolute demand for action: Change, or we close the purse, e.g. And here I am, a member of the ACA and TAC and they don’t give a rat’s patootie for what is happening to the rest of the Anglican world. Well, it is too late now. Lambeth cannot touch TEC and we have no one to stand up and call them to account. LM
#12-This is the largest problem faced by the faithful remaining in TEC. If only the “moderates” had stepped up and demanded discipline for the innovations and apostasy that have taken place over the last 30 years (let the reader understand), we would not be facing this moment. Somewhere along the line the role of the shepherd as one who defends the flock AND leads them to safe pasture has been lost. The “moderates” have claimed that their diocese were insulated from the poison of TEC only to be surrounded by that poison with no way to get out.
#14-Lambeth has devolved into just another conversation about the use of genitalia. Meanwhile the true issues are being ignored. KJS can stop the ordinations and blessings, VGR can resign, we can all sing Kumbayah and nothing will change. We will be a white washed sepulcher; pretty but dead.
I read this blog all the time and mostly see the same sort of comments. But #14 gave me something new today – a theology from the reappraisers that I really had not seen or heard before (I’m sure from my previous lack of hearing or observation).
“The other believes that Jesus was fully human and divine, living as the ultimate example of God’s justice and mercy, and dying in order to call all people to a life of sacrificial love on behalf of the world, thus initiating the kingdom in the here and now.”
That sounds wonderful doesn’t it – just the way the Devil would want it to sound – all inclusive, regardless of conduct or of what God’s word actually says. But it’s not right nor is it the true gospel, is it? Those who espouse this have truly lost their way trying to be nice people – they’ve become idolaters of sacrificial kindness, and in so doing, they’ve sacrificed worship of the Lord and following his Word. More’s the pity.
Hi Billy,
The true Gospel, as demonstrated by scripture…. Jesus says to the apostles: Peace; the truth will set you free; do not be afraid; I desire mercy and not sacrifice. I don’t think you, nor most reasserters, have much sympathy for gay people, their struggles. For you they are subhuman. I believe it is only one step from being sent to the camps. And there is little in your theology that keeps them from being sacrificed at the altar of your personal perfectionism. Do you think you are better than a gay person? If so – you might want to read scripture more closely, you hypocrite.
The problem is that I’m busy just trying to live by his Word, and you’re busy examining me. Who made you a God? Woe to you, Pharisee! They all called Jesus a glutton and a drunkard….
Look – I do not reject your theology. God bless you for it. Your theology, however, has little to do with the God who gave his life for me. This I know.
You are perfect. Good for you.
John,
Thank you for responding to Billy. Your comments are what I am looking for in that you say, “Your theology, however, has little to do with the God who gave his life for me.” What does that phrase mean that he “gave his life for me”? What did God do? Did God do it? Or did some human named Jesus, do it? How does God’s giving his life create justice and set you free? Billy, would you be willing to respond to the same questions?
Contrary to John’s assertion that theology has little to do with the question of how we engage people, my guess is that your answers to who Jesus is will be quite different than John’s. I do not want to put words into either of your mouths–but would greatly appreciate hearing form both of you.
Sincerely and eagerly, thank you to both of you.
#21, I shall not debate JW+, as you request. He and I have debated many times on this blog for several years, but this is the first time I have received a personal attack such as the one in #20. I do deny his personal statements about me and my feelings about homosexual persons. If he really knew me, my history and my life, he would know how ridiculous his statements are. What John says about Jesus’ statements to the apostles is correct, but only partially correct. And this is the mistake reappraisers make. They ignore those parts of the gospel that do create standards to live by, that do “fulfill the law.” And they further castigate reasserters, and claim that they ignore those parts of the gospel that John cites above. I don’t judge homosexuals for their sin; their sin and my sin, which is just as great, are all at the foot of the Cross. None of us can approach our Father in any other way. I do judge our church and our church fathers, like John, who endanger the souls of all of us by ignoring half of the gospel fulfilling the law and condoning activities that all my life have been considered sinful, whether they are committed by hetero or homosexuals, and castigating those who call them to task on it. If you want a summary of my theology, it is the Jesus Creed. I try to start with the first line and let it lead me to following the second line. I think reapprasers may have forgotten the first line and made an idol out of the second.
Billy, I did not intend a “debate.” As with my original comment, I was hoping to give opportunity to both reappraisers and reasserters to demonstrate either their similarity or dis-similarity in the most basic questions of our faith, who is Jesus and what has he done for the world. I have attempted the same on other threads, but have not succeeded in generating a conversation. Candidly, I am not really certain why. Reasserters say there are two faiths at work, and then proceed to “debate” the issues or strategies for moving forward; reappraisers say there is little difference in our faith, and then proceed to “debate” the issues or strategies for moving forward. The ABC did the same, except that the presented “both sides”. But alas, he did not call us to examine the questions of who do we say Jesus is and what has he done. This I find troubling and disheartening.
With regards to prior debates, I do not recall seeing them. But certainly personal accusations are unnecessary and I was grieved to see them here.
For what it’s worth, may the Lord give you courage and wisdom to continue to share your faith in him and to invite others to join you at the foot of the cross–his incredibly generous cross. Blessings.