We are also discovering that what benefits gay women and men also benefits the church. Gay people now are disproportionately represented in our parish leadership. Their contributions are wonderful and exciting. Greater acceptance allows greater holiness and service. That’s a classic Christian equation that the proclaimers of certainty overlook.
I take seriously the unity of the church, but I cannot imagine God asking my parish to turn away from the welcoming and accepting theology that is bringing us such vitality. We know that our gay members are no more “intrinsically disordered” than our straight members. It may be some time before it becomes clear what new thing God is doing in the Anglican communion and the church universal. But I am grateful for what God has been doing in my particular church and in my denomination.
The above is a selection from the letter from Father Martz. Several things are wort4h noting. First, that homosexuals are disproportionately represent the church leadership. This should tell all of us what the future hold for TEC and whyh we do not want to follow the same path. Second, “Greater acceptance allows greater holiness and service.” This is so beyond logic, one is baffled for an accurate description. What connection is there between greater acceptance and greater holiness? Well, none. The statement is simply false. Third, he declares that his homosexuals are no more ‘intrinsically disordered that his heterosexuals.” This is not merely nonesense, it is dead wrong. The bell shaped curve is not the projection of someone biases or agenda. It is simply the way humanity distributes itself over large numbers and is the only means we have to define the norm in human behavior. Homosexuality is in fact at the far end of the curve, a asexuality is at the other extreme. In indisputable fact, homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, that is, it is an extreme abnormality.
It is the substitution of the agenda for the evidence, the wish-fulfillment for the reality that marks the battle we are now engaged in, and it shows how far the homophile agenda, promoted so vigorously by the left, has succeeded in making perception the norm of reality. The reality we may see in the interview with the homosexuality priest in the later blog entry. We are not permitted to comment thereon, but the patent fact is that this man has lied in his vows (like vgr), violated his vows and feels no compunction. And, as we all know, he has plenty of company in the priesthood.
And California is in doubt how to vote? Larry
“We know that our gay members are no more “intrinsically disordered†than our straight members.”
I categorically, 100% agree! Please, please, please, say it with me: Every human being is Fallen. Our natual state is sin and death. Our sinfulness, quite naturally manifests in different ways. Some are homosexual. Some are naturally given to adultery. Many are naturally given to anger and hate. Almost all are given to pride and greed. And the result is DEATH. All very, very natural. This is the Human Condition. You can’t help it. You were most certainly born that way.
Jesus Christ, my friends, lifts us by the grace of God out of this miserable fallen state. At the resurrection our natures will be changed.
In the mean time, between the resurrection of Christ “the first fruit of them that slept” and the general ressurection, we live by the power of the Holy Spirit. Perfection isn’t gonna happen in this life. But we’re to keep the moral law by that electric energy we recieve by the Spirit – this comes through fellowship, prayer, Bible study, confession of our brokeness and dependence on God alone, and a life rooted in the Sacraments.
BUT what we do not do is make some vapid argument that sin is natural. Of course sin is natural! That doesn’t excuse wallowing in it. Unless of course for some inexplicable reason one desires the result of this natural sin, death. What we do instead is live by the power of the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness and reconciliation is always on tap at Christ’s Church. Take it and live!
I’m sorry, but I have to emphasize this again because some of us really do believe homosexuals are somehow worse sinners…
I am a sinner. You are a sinner. Our sins are no different than the sins of homosexuals. And what’s more it is all _natural_.
But praise be to Jesus the Christ of God: we who confess our sins and take hold of true life in the Spirit are being redeemed from our fallen nature.
The problem with TEC is this sin (among others) is getting a pass. It is tantamount to doubting that God can redeem every sin. It is tantamount to saying God forgives sins 1 thorugh 9, but not sin #10. Thats just too much.
What was it Luther said? If I fight the devil in all areas save one, and ignore that one area, then I lose. Human sexuality is simply the weak point Satan is attacking in our day.
1 Peter 5:8
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour”
The National Catholic Reporter is a publication which has long since forfeited any credibility it may once have possessed. [url=http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/]Perry Robinson[/url] (not a Roman Catholic) once declared that he has navel lint that is more Catholic than NCR. That about sums it up. I simply can not take anything they print seriously.
Under the mercy
[url=http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/]John[/url]
An [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj4pUphDitA]Orthodox [/url] Christian
calvin, the issue isn’t whether we are sinful or not. The phrase is “intrinsically disordered,” a very different matter. I have place an argument before in the form of the normal curve. Is it or am I in error? If so, where?
“It is tantamount to saying God forgives sins 1 thorugh 9, but not sin #10. ” So says Calvin, and yet what we do know is that there is a point in which God does NOT forgive sin, and the punishment is we are told rather worse than mere death. Do you deny that God’s judgment falls on some to their eternal punishment?
We may not know where this line is drawn, but we do know that it IS drawn. Larry
Calvin: I very much agree with what you wrote in post [b] #3[/b], but I have a comment about your post [b] #4[/b].
[blockquote] “I’m sorry, but I have to emphasize this again because some of us really do believe homosexuals are somehow worse sinners…” [/blockquote]
It is not the sin that is worse, and we all may try to rationalize our own sins, but to institutionally say something is not a sin, when the Scriptures hold a high standard for all sexual behavior, undermines everything that Christianity stands for in honoring God and holding to His standards with the way He expects us to conduct ourselves in our personal relationships.
Homosexuality may or may not be any greater a sin than others (Paul does say that they will not inherit eternal life), but what makes it so insidious is the attempt to lure others into the lifestyle and to counsel others to ignore God’s call to live holy lives. That attitude is perhaps understandable for homosexuals who wish to rationalize their own sinful conduct but it is incomprehensilbe for clergy, bishops and lay leaders who encourage others to remain in the darkness at the risk of their immortal souls. We are to love gays and lesbians to life, not eternal separation from God.
Thanks for your comments. First, Cole: I agree. As I wrote above, somehow TEC has given up on recognizing sin as sin, or at the very least TEC is selective about recognizing certain sins as sin.
Larry: Thanks also to you for your comment. I see your bell curve argument. However, I have to disagree and in response ask for your scriptural justification for understanding certain sins as worse than other sins. I very sincerely need to know the scripture on this because it would change my mind.
I think what we rather find in scripture is that we are all warped by sins, known and unknown. But this does not excuse sinful behavior in the least. It is rather the “charge†laid against us. But again, God has intervened!
1 John 1:9 tells us “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
So, I don’t see a way to understand certain sins as worse than others. Can I, very respectfully, and very humbly suggest that it is in fact also part of the Fall to make such (scholastic / medieval) categories of sin, ranking some sins as worse than other sins. The Christian rooted in the Reformation sees every woman and man including himself as equally broken by sin, convicted in the courtroom (to use forensic language). If you prefer the Roman Church’s language: we are all intrinsically disordered. The great Reformed and neo-orthodox theologian Niebuhr wrote that the proof of this universal condition is the fact that all of us DIE.
The tragic problem with TEC (that I and Cole have hit on) is that somehow TEC no longer recognizes sin as sin. They have a fundamentally Pelagian outlook: people are basically good they teach when in fact we know that all of humanity is in love with sin and as a result locked in a death spiral.
The “line†you are talking about, Larry, is drawn when one does not confess her or his sins. The line is drawn when grace is ignored, when Christ’s attoning death is snubbed. (By the way I’d prefer to avoid a full on soteriological conversation because there are a lot of bright folks here who prefer a more predestinarian outlook where I’m a bit more Arminian; in that case Larry I think you and I would be in the same boat).
The money quote:
“Gay people now are disproportionately represented in our parish leadership.”
We are also discovering that what benefits gay women and men also benefits the church. Gay people now are disproportionately represented in our parish leadership. Their contributions are wonderful and exciting. Greater acceptance allows greater holiness and service. That’s a classic Christian equation that the proclaimers of certainty overlook.
I take seriously the unity of the church, but I cannot imagine God asking my parish to turn away from the welcoming and accepting theology that is bringing us such vitality. We know that our gay members are no more “intrinsically disordered” than our straight members. It may be some time before it becomes clear what new thing God is doing in the Anglican communion and the church universal. But I am grateful for what God has been doing in my particular church and in my denomination.
The above is a selection from the letter from Father Martz. Several things are wort4h noting. First, that homosexuals are disproportionately represent the church leadership. This should tell all of us what the future hold for TEC and whyh we do not want to follow the same path. Second, “Greater acceptance allows greater holiness and service.” This is so beyond logic, one is baffled for an accurate description. What connection is there between greater acceptance and greater holiness? Well, none. The statement is simply false. Third, he declares that his homosexuals are no more ‘intrinsically disordered that his heterosexuals.” This is not merely nonesense, it is dead wrong. The bell shaped curve is not the projection of someone biases or agenda. It is simply the way humanity distributes itself over large numbers and is the only means we have to define the norm in human behavior. Homosexuality is in fact at the far end of the curve, a asexuality is at the other extreme. In indisputable fact, homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, that is, it is an extreme abnormality.
It is the substitution of the agenda for the evidence, the wish-fulfillment for the reality that marks the battle we are now engaged in, and it shows how far the homophile agenda, promoted so vigorously by the left, has succeeded in making perception the norm of reality. The reality we may see in the interview with the homosexuality priest in the later blog entry. We are not permitted to comment thereon, but the patent fact is that this man has lied in his vows (like vgr), violated his vows and feels no compunction. And, as we all know, he has plenty of company in the priesthood.
And California is in doubt how to vote? Larry
“We know that our gay members are no more “intrinsically disordered†than our straight members.”
I categorically, 100% agree! Please, please, please, say it with me: Every human being is Fallen. Our natual state is sin and death. Our sinfulness, quite naturally manifests in different ways. Some are homosexual. Some are naturally given to adultery. Many are naturally given to anger and hate. Almost all are given to pride and greed. And the result is DEATH. All very, very natural. This is the Human Condition. You can’t help it. You were most certainly born that way.
Jesus Christ, my friends, lifts us by the grace of God out of this miserable fallen state. At the resurrection our natures will be changed.
In the mean time, between the resurrection of Christ “the first fruit of them that slept” and the general ressurection, we live by the power of the Holy Spirit. Perfection isn’t gonna happen in this life. But we’re to keep the moral law by that electric energy we recieve by the Spirit – this comes through fellowship, prayer, Bible study, confession of our brokeness and dependence on God alone, and a life rooted in the Sacraments.
BUT what we do not do is make some vapid argument that sin is natural. Of course sin is natural! That doesn’t excuse wallowing in it. Unless of course for some inexplicable reason one desires the result of this natural sin, death. What we do instead is live by the power of the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness and reconciliation is always on tap at Christ’s Church. Take it and live!
I’m sorry, but I have to emphasize this again because some of us really do believe homosexuals are somehow worse sinners…
I am a sinner. You are a sinner. Our sins are no different than the sins of homosexuals. And what’s more it is all _natural_.
But praise be to Jesus the Christ of God: we who confess our sins and take hold of true life in the Spirit are being redeemed from our fallen nature.
The problem with TEC is this sin (among others) is getting a pass. It is tantamount to doubting that God can redeem every sin. It is tantamount to saying God forgives sins 1 thorugh 9, but not sin #10. Thats just too much.
What was it Luther said? If I fight the devil in all areas save one, and ignore that one area, then I lose. Human sexuality is simply the weak point Satan is attacking in our day.
1 Peter 5:8
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour”
Interesting juxtaposition of ad links at the bottom of the page link:
“Catholic Relief Services”
“Meet Hot Gay Men”
Beware automatic ads!
The National Catholic Reporter is a publication which has long since forfeited any credibility it may once have possessed. [url=http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/]Perry Robinson[/url] (not a Roman Catholic) once declared that he has navel lint that is more Catholic than NCR. That about sums it up. I simply can not take anything they print seriously.
Under the mercy
[url=http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/]John[/url]
An [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj4pUphDitA]Orthodox [/url] Christian
calvin, the issue isn’t whether we are sinful or not. The phrase is “intrinsically disordered,” a very different matter. I have place an argument before in the form of the normal curve. Is it or am I in error? If so, where?
“It is tantamount to saying God forgives sins 1 thorugh 9, but not sin #10. ” So says Calvin, and yet what we do know is that there is a point in which God does NOT forgive sin, and the punishment is we are told rather worse than mere death. Do you deny that God’s judgment falls on some to their eternal punishment?
We may not know where this line is drawn, but we do know that it IS drawn. Larry
Calvin: I very much agree with what you wrote in post [b] #3[/b], but I have a comment about your post [b] #4[/b].
[blockquote] “I’m sorry, but I have to emphasize this again because some of us really do believe homosexuals are somehow worse sinners…” [/blockquote]
It is not the sin that is worse, and we all may try to rationalize our own sins, but to institutionally say something is not a sin, when the Scriptures hold a high standard for all sexual behavior, undermines everything that Christianity stands for in honoring God and holding to His standards with the way He expects us to conduct ourselves in our personal relationships.
Homosexuality may or may not be any greater a sin than others (Paul does say that they will not inherit eternal life), but what makes it so insidious is the attempt to lure others into the lifestyle and to counsel others to ignore God’s call to live holy lives. That attitude is perhaps understandable for homosexuals who wish to rationalize their own sinful conduct but it is incomprehensilbe for clergy, bishops and lay leaders who encourage others to remain in the darkness at the risk of their immortal souls. We are to love gays and lesbians to life, not eternal separation from God.
Hi Cole and Larry,
Thanks for your comments. First, Cole: I agree. As I wrote above, somehow TEC has given up on recognizing sin as sin, or at the very least TEC is selective about recognizing certain sins as sin.
Larry: Thanks also to you for your comment. I see your bell curve argument. However, I have to disagree and in response ask for your scriptural justification for understanding certain sins as worse than other sins. I very sincerely need to know the scripture on this because it would change my mind.
I think what we rather find in scripture is that we are all warped by sins, known and unknown. But this does not excuse sinful behavior in the least. It is rather the “charge†laid against us. But again, God has intervened!
1 John 1:9 tells us “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
So, I don’t see a way to understand certain sins as worse than others. Can I, very respectfully, and very humbly suggest that it is in fact also part of the Fall to make such (scholastic / medieval) categories of sin, ranking some sins as worse than other sins. The Christian rooted in the Reformation sees every woman and man including himself as equally broken by sin, convicted in the courtroom (to use forensic language). If you prefer the Roman Church’s language: we are all intrinsically disordered. The great Reformed and neo-orthodox theologian Niebuhr wrote that the proof of this universal condition is the fact that all of us DIE.
The tragic problem with TEC (that I and Cole have hit on) is that somehow TEC no longer recognizes sin as sin. They have a fundamentally Pelagian outlook: people are basically good they teach when in fact we know that all of humanity is in love with sin and as a result locked in a death spiral.
The “line†you are talking about, Larry, is drawn when one does not confess her or his sins. The line is drawn when grace is ignored, when Christ’s attoning death is snubbed. (By the way I’d prefer to avoid a full on soteriological conversation because there are a lot of bright folks here who prefer a more predestinarian outlook where I’m a bit more Arminian; in that case Larry I think you and I would be in the same boat).
Thanks again for your thoughts.
DaveG is totally correct. Human sexuality is the weak spot Satan is attacking at this time.