A leading member of Germany’s Jewish community said Monday that Benedict XVI, the German-born pope and leader of more than a billion Roman Catholics worldwide, was sowing divisions and abetting far-right groups by rehabilitating four ultra-conservative bishops, one of whom has denied the Holocaust.
Stephan Kramer, secretary general of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, said in an interview that because of the pope’s nationality, Benedict had a special responsibility to avoid creating rifts between religious groups over the comments of the controversial bishop, Richard Williamson of Britain.
“The pope’s decision is particularly disturbing in that he is also a German pope,” Kramer said. “Yes, he made a statement pledging solidarity with the Jews. But, frankly, the statement was made nearly 13 days after Williamson’s interview. Why? The question is how the pope wants to proceed from here in relations with the Jewish community.”
++Benedict XVI has a problem that is not going away. He seems intent on alienating the other major monotheistic faiths with supposed “blunders” that he explains away with apologies afterward.
Stephan Kramer, secretary general of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, said in an interview that because of the pope’s nationality, Benedict had a special responsibility to avoid creating rifts between religious groups over the comments of the controversial bishop, Richard Williamson of Britain.
This is an incorrect analysis. He has a heightened responsibility because he was, however unwilling, an actual Nazi. His repentance should include a heightened sensitivity and his actions since being Pope have not shown that sensitivity.
The question is how the pope wants to proceed from here in relations with the Jewish community.
…
The Council of Jews in Germany immediately broke relations with the Vatican, ending, for the time being, a dialogue that had taken decades to nurture.
And there is the problem. The Pope’s consistent “blunder and apologize” approach makes it clear that he is uninterested in any dialogue.
The German Conference of Catholic Bishops rejected Williamson’s statement. Gerhard Ludwig Müller – the bishop of Regensburg, which is also the pope’s home city – said Williamson would not be allowed inside his city’s cathedral or any other church property.
And last Saturday, in mounting opposition to the pope’s decision, Bishop Gebhard Fürst of Rottenburg-Stuttgart, in southern Germany, issued a statement saying the Benedict’s rehabilitation of the bishops was “totally unacceptable.”
And here is the solution. A total break with this Bishop. Not a simple statement of solidarit, but rather a statement making him unwelcome in all Roman Catholic churches.. The Pope has so far feigned interest in the Jewish people, but his actions belie those words.
[blockquote]This is an incorrect analysis. He has a heightened responsibility because he was, however unwilling, an actual Nazi.[/blockquote]
THIS is an incorrect analysis as well. Joseph Ratzinger was never a Nazi. He was impressed into the Wermacht. Not all Germans or German soldiers were Nazis.
[blockquote]The Pope’s consistent “blunder and apologize†approach makes it clear that he is uninterested in any dialogue.[/blockquote]
The media’s continual misrepresentation and certain biased folks’ inability to fact-find are the things that make this “clear”.
[blockquote]Not a simple statement of solidarit, but rather a statement making him unwelcome in all Roman Catholic churches[/blockquote]
Deliciously ironic when liberals decry the “bell, book, and candle” approach to supporters of women’s ordination, regularization of homosexual relationships, divorce and remarriage, etc, but demand the stake and fire for loonies on the other wing.
Here’s a fact: being an idiot and saying that there weren’t as many Jews killed in the holocaust as is officially claimed is not grounds for excommunication. It may wind up being grounds for suspension of ministry once the SSPX is finally regularized, but we’re not at that point yet.
Brian, I’ve never seen a single charitable or positive thing you’ve ever said about the Pontiff. You simply have a chip on your shoulder about him and Catholic Christianity in general. It’s hard to believe there’s any steel left on your axe with all the grinding you’ve done.
He was impressed into the Wehrmacht.
Chris, like the Pope, you’re splitting hairs here. He may not have been a member of the NDSAP, however, he was “impressed” into the Hitler Youth. Call it whatever makes you sleep better at night, he wore a swastika on his arm-plain and simple.
The media’s continual misrepresentation and certain biased folks’ inability to fact-find are the things that make this “clearâ€.
Perhaps the entire Muslim community and the Jews upset over his reinstatement of antisemitic language in the Passion and those calling for him to separate himself from +Williamson are biased. Perhaps this poor misguided intellectual with no experience at making public statements DID make an “oopsie” without anyone there to catch it. It’s a hard job being the Pope.
Deliciously ironic when liberals decry the “bell, book, and candle†approach to supporters of women’s ordination, regularization of homosexual relationships, divorce and remarriage, etc, but demand the stake and fire for loonies on the other wing.
There’s no relation between the two.
Here’s a fact: being an idiot and saying that there weren’t as many Jews killed in the holocaust as is officially claimed is not grounds for excommunication. It may wind up being grounds for suspension of ministry once the SSPX is finally regularized, but we’re not at that point yet.
I’m not suggesting excommunication. I’m suggesting that the German bishops have it right and the Pope does not.
Brian, I’ve never seen a single charitable or positive thing you’ve ever said about the Pontiff. You simply have a chip on your shoulder about him and Catholic Christianity in general. It’s hard to believe there’s any steel left on your axe with all the grinding you’ve done.
First, I have no problem with Roman Catholicism or catholic Christianity in general. I have specific concerns regarding specific issues with many different religions and branches thereof.
But more importantly, I have great respect for some of the men who have held the office of Pope. I believe that Pope John Paul II was a great Pope, a great man and should be declared a saint. My issue is with this Pope. As God forbade Moses from entering the Promised Land, I believe He forbids those who wore the swastika (regardless of whether they were willing or not) from being Pope. It is the ONE job they are unqualified for. As we have seen from his consistent moves away from ecumenism and his embracing and restoration of antisemitism in the Church, this Pope has several issues. Perhaps that is why he is the last Pope in the prophecy of St. Malachy.
The Vatican’s press and PR people are shamefully incompetent and there are far too few English speakers. This debacle could have handled to produce far less damage.
But BXVI’s decision is the right one. He cannot allow there to be two Roman Catholic churches in perpetuity if there is a way to heal the rift. SSPX has valid orders and a growing following. Left alone, they will become increasingly eccentric and extremist (as Williamson demonstrates). Reincorporation will bring them under Vatican control, and may well help reconcile traditionalist Catholics within the church who have been deeply disaffected for decades.
The Pope’s primary responsibility is not to the Jewish people, though I am certain he values that relationship highly. It is to the Catholic Church first, then to other Christians (in varying degrees), then to the world. He must first heal his own body.
One notes that the Pope’s leniency toward the left/revisionist wing of Catholicism has not met with any condemnation. The Hans Kungs, Leonardo Boffs, Joan Chittesters, and Andrew Sullivans are not excommunicated. And, as Catholics have reached out to Jews, some groups, like Foxman’s ADL, have grown increasingly strident in their anti-Catholicism, and demanded concessions of theology that are hardly possible from the guardian of the deposit of faith.
And there is also the technical matter of what the excommunication covers (one act of disobedience, not a set of opinions) and that these bishops are not regularized or with jurisdiction. A good press office would have made that case; journalists are generally too ignorant and prejudiced to work out what the Church is actually doing.
[blockquote]Chris, like the Pope, you’re splitting hairs here. He may not have been a member of the NDSAP, however, he was “impressed†into the Hitler Youth. Call it whatever makes you sleep better at night, he wore a swastika on his arm-plain and simple. [/blockquote]
Outrageous. I daresay that if someone held a Luger to your (or your mother’s) head and told you to slip on the brown shirt and jackboots, you’d do so, particularly at the tender age of, what, 15? And I do believe you’d have a legitimate complaint if a picture of you in your uniform surfaced later.
Just when I think revisionists can’t get any more base, vile, contemptible and slanderous, y’all keep on talking.
Get a grip Brian. Benedict XVI has already been a greater Pope than any of his 20th century predecessors, and I say that having the highest regard for JPII. You just don’t like the fact that he is trying to recover the spirituality and richness of the Church’s tradition that have been surpressed by the modernists.
Outrageous. I daresay that if someone held a Luger to your (or your mother’s) head and told you to slip on the brown shirt and jackboots, you’d do so, particularly at the tender age of, what, 15? And I do believe you’d have a legitimate complaint if a picture of you in your uniform surfaced later. ,/i>
100% correct. However, I would not claim justification for my actions. I would freely admit that I was coerced and seek repentance. And that repentance would involve discipline.
He may not have been a member of the NDSAP, however, he was “impressed†into the Hitler Youth.
Brian, gosh. Do you realize how unforgiving and judging you sound. The Hitler *Youth*? Wasn’t it required of *all* German youth?
Quoting Wikipedia: “At the end of 1933, the HJ had 2,300,000 members. Much of these increases came from the more or less forcible merger of other youth organizations with the HJ. (The sizable Evangelische Jugend, a Lutheran youth organisation of 600,000 members, was integrated on February 18, 1934).[7] By December 1936, HJ membership stood at just over five million. That same month, HJ membership became mandatory . . . .”
You’re holding mandatory membership of a teenager in a group directed by the Nazis against anyone? Should we go ahead and shoot all the Germans who were members?
I believe He forbids those who wore the swastika (regardless of whether they were willing or not) from being Pope. It is the ONE job they are unqualified for.
I am glad that the mercy of the church and it’s belief in the possibilities of redemption are greater than yours. Peter denied Christ three times, and yet God found a use for him.
Thia is ridiculous. Had he been a member of the NAZI Party or the Communist Party, there would be an issue calling for repentance. Serving in either the Whermacht or the Red Army are non-issues.
I would freely admit that I was coerced and seek repentance. And that repentance would involve discipline.
And you know that there has been no repentance and no discipline how? You see into the pope’s soul and judge for God.
[blockquote]100% correct. However, I would not claim justification for my actions. I would freely admit that I was coerced and seek repentance. And that repentance would involve discipline. [/blockquote]
And what “actions” are those, Brian? Not going to the required meetings? Deserting his subsequent Army unit? It’s not as if the Pope has tried to cover up his past. Don’t you think that being marched off at gunpoint is evidence enough that his actions were not of the voluntary sort?
I’ll quibble with #9’s assertion of membership in the Communist Party would be seen as a cause for repentance within TEC. Schori can’t seem to find her voice about that issue, particularly when she’s down in Gulla-Gulla Gulag badmouthing the US.
Jeffersonian,
I agree with you completely that most of the bishops in TEC would find nothing at all disqualifying about membership in the Communist Party. Useful idiots, Lenin called such folks, I believe.
Also, please don’t forget that young Joseph Ratzinger saw his disabled cousin (Down’s IIRC) marched off to be killed by the Nazis. If you’ve read ANYTHING he’s written (Jesus of Nazareth would be a good start), you know he has the greatest affection and respect for the Jewish faith and people. This is not some rehabilitated Nazi. Technically, he was a deserter from the Wehrmacht. It’s not splitting hairs to differentiate between Nazis (those who supported Hitler and believed in his rhetoric) and your average German civilian or soldier. Perhaps some armchair saints would have been happier if he resisted and died a martyr, but apparently God had other plans for the young German.
The problem here appears to be that neither the Jewish people nor (apparently) much of TEC understand what being “in communion” is.
Being in communion with the Catholic church is not being a member of an exclusive country club where we snub folks who have incorrect views or even utterly stupid, dangerous and wicked views. The Catholic church is filled with stupid, wicked people, and as long as they are not asked to engage in ministry, that is as it should be. It is the JOB of the Catholic church to welcome stupid people and to convert wicked ones.
Being in communion does not mean that one is now the official spokesman for the Catholic church.
Being in communion means that one is in the Ark of Noah and however tough life might be in the Purgatory that follows the Flood of Baptism, one isn’t going to die eternally.
Not being in Communion means that one is trusting to other devices in the tusinami of the Flood. Such other devices may include the rowboat of TEC, The swimming prowess and athletic abilities of the Atheists or the Ark of the Covenant under which the Children of Abraham MAY yet be saved. It may be that God has other devices to save those of other religions. We are not told of such other devices in Holy Scripture. We do know that there was a Flood, that probably covered most of the Temperate zone 10,000 years ago and that Most people died. It is not the job of the Pope (or any Bishop worth a busted nickel) to assume that those other devices will be satisfactory for those whom we would rather not rub shoulders with in church.
It is the JOB of Pope Benedict to welcome as many individuals, regardless of their folly into the Ark of Christ’s Church. To refuse because they are unpopular or even wicked is like the Coast Guard refusing to pick up refugees from an overturned vessel, swimming in the open ocean, because they were escaped criminals. It is the Great Commission delivered to the First Pope, St. Peter that the Pope save as many as he can.
Pope Benedict was aware that he would have to endure the whole stupid “German” thing if he reached out to rescue these Christians outside his communion. I think it was brave (and characteristic) of him that he did so, rather than worry about what the public might think
I think we’re getting bogged down on a non-issue. Those criticizing my view of the Pope are either engaging in reductionism or claiming that I conflate Benedict and Hitler. Neither is true. I do not personally believe that +Ratzinger is qualified to be the Pope. The sole disqualifying act on his part is his membership in the Wehrmacht. It does not matter that he was coerced nor that he was a guard over slave laborers. His repentance (which I do not question), I find genuine However, I do not believe that even a repentant man who was impressed into the HJ is qualified for the position.
My opinion on his qualifications is completely irrelevant because he is indeed the Pope and to ignore that would be ridiculous.
Now, back to the original argument that I made. The Papacy does not exist in a vacuum. The office holder has a past and that past helps define who he is. ++Benedict XVI was a German involved against his will in the Third Reich. The Third Reich has a particular association to the Jewish people. He needs to be cognizant of that fact and stop claiming that he is making innocent mistakes. He is making informed, calculated decisions. He is not a fool.
Well Brian, the fact that you consider service in the Wehrmacht by a 15 year-old, in an of itself, should disqualify one from being the Pope clearly demonstrates that your judgment is seriously flawed. I find such an assertion simply amazing.
Bizarre.
St. Mathew was a tax collector at a time that tax collectors were essentially fraud artists.
St. Athenausius had a rather checkered youth, by his report.
St. Paul persecuted Christians.
It would be interesting to know whom precisely Brian feels might be worthy of filling the job of Pope. It is apparent that no Germans need apply.
I also wonder why Brian feels that the Pope needs to put the sensitivities of Jews so much higher than the salvation of Christians and Catholics. Some of us believe that this being in communion stuff actually matters, you know, and matters rather more than hurt feelings. Your mileage may vary.
It would be interesting to know whom precisely Brian feels might be worthy of filling the job of Pope. It is apparent that no Germans need apply.
Any person not complicit in genocide.
I also wonder why Brian feels that the Pope needs to put the sensitivities of Jews so much higher than the salvation of Christians and Catholics. Some of us believe that this being in communion stuff actually matters, you know, and matters rather more than hurt feelings. Your mileage may vary.
I’ll answer your question with one of my own. Why do you feel the salvation of anyone involves insulting the Jewish people?
[blockquote]Any person not complicit in genocide. [/blockquote]
As I said, bizarre.
[blockquote]I’ll answer your question with one of my own. Why do you feel the salvation of anyone involves insulting the Jewish people? [/blockquote]
The decision to reinstate these bishops, like the decision to excommunicate them, had nothing to do with the Jewish people.
Any person not complicit in genocide.
Since African American are disproportionately aborted in the US, does that mean any person complicit in supporting abortions? Like TEC who marches for Choice?
Since African American are disproportionately aborted in the US, does that mean any person complicit in supporting abortions? Like TEC who marches for Choice?,/i>
Yes. Didn’t you see the article on sins only the Pope can forgive?
http://new.kendallharmon.net/wp-content/uploads/index.php/t19/article/19591
One of them is a person who wants to be a priest but participates in any way in an abortion.
I merely point out that it is very easy to throw around charges of “genocide”. If we include all those who associate at the age of 15 with abortionists or folks who have abortions the way you paint Benedict who at the age of 15 was conscripted into the Youth League, then all of TEC is complicit in “genocide”.
Personally, I think we should use the word “genocide” a little more carefully.
We seem to think that only Jews were persecuted in Nazi Germany. In point of fact, Catholics were also persecuted, and as a boy of 12, Ratzinger witnessed the beating of his parish priest in the church by the brown shirts (Ratzinger was enrolled in a minor seminary at the age of 12). Folks who did not wish to be beaten were “encouraged” to join the Youth League, and I do not fault Ratzinger who was not a pope or even a priest for doing so.
As for sins that “only a Pope can forgive”, from a Catholic point of view, I accept the fact that only the Pope can forgive participation in an abortion.
It is a vile thing to attack an unborn child in his mother’s womb. It is shameful that TEC openly marches in favor of abortion.
I went and reviewed the thread. The problem appears to be that Protestants believe that simply praying Jesus for forgiveness sufficeth for the forgiveness of all sins (assuming of course that one agrees that something is a sin, whether abortion, homosexuality, pride, whatever). Protestants say “Sorry about that” and Jesus says “No problem, mate, I’m cool”, and life goes on.
It must be nice.
Catholics are not Protestants. Thus, Catholics, unlike Episcopalians or other Protestants are not permitted to waltz into Mass and partake of communion while in a state of mortal sin. It is insufficient to pray in the corner of ones room if one has sinned seriously and one knows it. That sin must be brought into the light and confessed openly. It is still Jesus who saves, and who absolves sin, however since Jesus is not physicially present, we confess to our priests who stand in His place for this purpose, and who hears our confessions, prescribes spiritual exercises, and then confirms to us that Jesus has indeed forgiven us. Obviously (and I should know) it is very much harder to confess to somebody physically sitting there whom you will need to see again on a weekly basis, something that you are ashamed of, then to simply pray to Jesus in the privacy of your bedroom. I think it is helpful, however, in assisting people to avoid repeating those sins they confess. My experience is that priests have been quite kind about my confessions, but confession is still, rather unpleasant.
What the Pope said in the previous thread is that some sins are sufficiently serious that the spiritual exercise needful for their healing can’t be achieved with a few Hail Mary’s from your Parish priest, let alone a heartfelt “I’m sorry” in your bedroom.
Abortion is such a sin. Saying 10 Hail Mary’s in private is not thought by the Catholic church to be adequate to heal that individual’s soul let alone to prepare it for sanctification for the priesthood. The Catholic church DOES reach out to women who have had abortions. (It is called Project Rachel IIRC). Such individuals go through a much longer period of repentance before being readmitted to the priviledge of communion.
Because communion in the Catholic church is a priviledge. It is not a private club that can refuse the unpopular, but neither is it a public service that anybody can partake of, regardless of what they believe or the state of their soul.
When I was in RCIA I was not permitted to take Communion. That was not a punishment. It was to protect me from taking it unworthily before I fully understood the implications of taking Communion.
You are a wicked man, Brian from T19, you libel the Pope and spread lies and hatred. May the Lord have mercy on your soul.
Clueless
Several things:
1. Episcopalians are not Protestant, we are Anglicans
2. “All of TEC,” as you can see from this thread, does not agree on all things. As for abortion, you will see that individual Episcopalians hold differing views. For example: I am opposed to abortion in any circumstance. Others support it.
3. Episcopalians are not permitted to partake of the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin. Our liturgy reflects the strong history of confession both corporately and individually. We pray at each Eucharist:
Most merciful God,
we confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.
For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ,
have mercy on us and forgive us;
that we may delight in your will,
and walk in your ways,
to the glory of your Name. Amen.
The Bishop, when present, or the Priest, stands and says
Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins
through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all
goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in
eternal life. Amen.
4. Episcopal priests also hear confession, however, it is not mandatory.
TridentineVirginian
He will.
26. “All of TEC,†as you can see from this thread, does not agree on all things. As for abortion, you will see that individual Episcopalians hold differing views. For example: I am opposed to abortion in any circumstance. Others support it. ”
Indeed. All of Germany, even during the dark period of the Reich, did not agree on all things. However you as an adult, and without duress, consort with those who support abortion, but damn Ratzinger who at the age of 15 and under duress consorted with those who supported genocide.
#27. I would also avoid presumption as well as the above hypocrisy. It isn’t pretty, it isn’t clever, and it isn’t necessary.
My two cents.
I think at this point I will bow out. Good luck Brian.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/02/rabbi-comments-on-official-jewish-reaction-to-the-pope/
Rabbi Kula gets it.
However you as an adult, and without duress, consort with those who support abortion, but damn Ratzinger who at the age of 15 and under duress consorted with those who supported genocide.
I didn’t work as a security guard at an abortion clinic.
You mean you weren’t FORCED to work under threat of imprisonment or death to work at an abortion clinic.