this is called ORYX. We encountered it all the time in social service agencies I worked in. Our Requirement Your Expense (ORYX)
Once it is in place it will only go up!
That’s the story of life in California. They haven’t thought of taxing us for filing taxes yet, but we pay county and state taxes, which are then squandered. Then we have to pay a fee for any service we request from the county or state government. Plus see the news media for what we’ve just gotten stuck with for, supposedly, making up the $42 billion dollar budget deficit.
desertpadere
Well, Germany in the 1930’s charged Jews for their own persecution. The idea, of course, was to steal Jewish money and assets legaly. Where here …. Never mind.
Processing paper returns is vastly more expensive than processing ones filed online. I fully expect that someday the paper option will be taken away altogether. Meanwhile, asking people to pay for the extra cost they are imposing on their fellow taxpayers by using this antiquate and horribly inefficient method strikes me as completely reasonable.
You obviously haven’t lived in the East – these schemes are never-ending. PA used to have an “occupational privilege” tax you paid to a municipality for the “privilege” of working there. Several years ago they changed the name to the “municipal services” tax and increased it from $10.00 to $52.00 – this in addition to a state income tax on your gross income (no meaningful deductions can be carried over from your Federal return), a city “earned income” tax, a volunteer fire department tax in my township, an EMS tax in my township, and everywhere a “head tax” of $14.00 per person. So far they haven’t imposed an “respiration” tax for the privilege of breathing. If you own property, you are assessed a county property tax, a township property tax, and a school district property tax. There are all sorts of “charges”, in addition, for various services. So we pay taxes not to the municipality but to agencies hired to collect taxes for the municipalities. We pay for garbage collection – not to the political unit but to private contractors (part of PA’s commitment to income maintenance and enhancement for those who “earn” their living off state-mandated programs – perhaps the most notorious scam in PA is the “auto inspection” requirement which provides for all practical purposes a guaranteed income for “licensed” inspection stations.) I could go on, but you get the drift. I used to wonder why so many people fled south – after a while, you wake up and discover that if you stay, you will catch the insanity in a state where political corruption is a way of life, and the state is the employer of first resort.
“Don’t fight it son. Confess quickly! If you hold out too long you could jeopardize your credit rating.”
“Brazil, where hearts were entertained in June,
We stood beneath an amber moon,
And softly murmured ‘Some day soon’
We kissed and clung together,
Then, tomorrow was another day.
The morning found me miles away,
With still a million things to say,
Now, when twilight beams the sky above,
Recalling thrills of our love,
There’s one thing I’m certain of,
Return, I will,
To old Brazil.”
LongGone,
There is an additional cost for the tax payer to file the returns electronically. A computer is required. While it may be possible to file tax returns on a library computer, do you really want to do that?
If you do have a computer, then software is required to file the return electronically.
The best solution would be to do away with income tax (and, thus, income tax filing) and move to a retail sales tax. That way, the number of returns is significantly less and most businesses have the ability to file electronically.
But Phil, IT folks besotted with the endless possibilities of the internet simply discount the existance of any significant numbers of neanderthals out there who aren’t as enlightened and in thrall to “on line” as themselves. If such people exist, they can safely be ignored as too stupid to matter.
[blockquote]The best solution would be to do away with income tax (and, thus, income tax filing) and move to a retail sales tax. That way, the number of returns is significantly less and most businesses have the ability to file electronically. [/blockquote]
The real question is “best for whom?” Doing away with the Internal Revenue Code might be great for business, great for taxpayers and super for the economy, but it would do serious damage to politicians’ ability to experiment with society through their byzantine rules, it would severely impair their ability to dispense favors (and thus restrict campaign donations), and restrict the government’s ability to surveille our lives (they’d no longer be acquainted with our investments, our daycare providers, the details of our purchases, eetc.). Needless to say, we will most certainly not get a national sales tax as a replacement for the IRS.
We should not be suprised, as #2 pointed out they are Dems.
Some years ago while living in Washington State, one had to pay via a 900 number to call any state agency.
Kendall, this is just the beginning. All those checks Mr. Obama and the Democrats are writing will have to be made good. The ‘full faith and credit’ they are being so (if you will excuse the expresssion) liberal in the exercise of is akin to being required to hand over your wallet when you express interest in something in a store and then being told you will get the wallet back when the store decides it has finished with it.
For a glimpse of the future get the DVD of the movie ‘Popeye’ starring Robin Williams. Note that the principal activity in the quaint little seafront town seems to be paying and collecting taxes.
You ain’t begun to see creativity in taxation, yet. Just wait.
LongGone,
A lot of elderly do not have computers and internet access. Either beyond their budget or ability. A lot of poor don’t have it either. Shall they be punished in the name of progress?
My computer science teacher in 1976 said our society would be a paperless society by 2000. Though we’ve made great strides, but we’ve still got a long way to go.
Bottom line is that the government itself recognizes that paper money is worthless and they have to get real money from somewhere. If the government can issue me paper money that it prints why can’t I pay it paper money that I print?
Longgone is basically right. The proposal is in principle reasonable. It’s just as reasonable as the state treasury dept (or a car dealership, or a mortgage company) objecting to me sending in my payment as a mass of pennies. It creates a big burden for the recipient of all those coins.
Now of course, it’s fine if some people on this thread object to all income taxes — but then it’s a bit silly to chime in on this particular proposal. It’s like writing a letter to the editor saying how awful it would be for a very specific chain of Italian restaurants to open on a very specific street corner in a specific town — when in fact you object to anyone eating out at any restraurant. Your real objection is not to the specific restaurant, or its location, or its Italianness — but to just eating out period. There may be a good case for that, but it’s a bit odd to weigh on this particular instance.
Likewise, for this thread to really make sense, the universe of discourse should be people who think it’s a good or necessary thing to have income taxes, but who think this particular thing is bad. Otherwise the thread is about how all income taxes are bad — fine to talk about but not exactly the subject of the original piece.
Jon [#16]: You draw an apt analogy to the costs we would impose on our creditors if we paid our bills with “a mass of pennies.” That doesn’t necessarily mean the proposed $10 fee is wise, but it gives the lie to those commenters who see here only another opportunity for their endless anti-government caterwauling. And caterwauling it is, complete with self-pity and selective indignation.
Jon and Irenaeus,
While I object to Income Taxes on principle, I also think that this “paper filing fee” is an undo burden on the poor and elderly who often don’t have access to computers.
To file electronically requires and investment in capital and in software. Now I am relatively well off. I have enough money to purchase a computer and sofware. I find the cost of sofware to be less than the personal cost of manually doing my taxes. But there are people out there who cannot afford the sofware or the computer and they cannot afford to hire a tax firm.
Does it cost government more to process a paper return than an electronic one? Yes. But government bore that cost before the majority of returns were electronic. So why the tax now? Since the electronic returns are cheaper to process, why not give a $1.00 credit for filing electronically? I bet it is because the government wants more money (it’s appetite for money seems insatiable). So they tax the poorest to the last penny.
You obviously haven’t lived in the East – these schemes are never-ending.
I just love stuff like this…uh, Dan, sorry. I grew up the first 18 years of my life (except for a few months) in New Jersey, then I went to College for four years in…Maine. Last time I checked they both qualified for “the East” according to at least some definitions.
I do encourage people to stay on topic please. You would think reading some commenters that all government is a priori bad, which is a gnostic and not a Christian position. We need wiser and better government, and we need good Christians to be involved in godly service in this area.
My concern is with the overall trend that this illustrates, but not one often thought about, and that is tax multiplication and tax complexity. There should be taxes, but there should not be many of them and they should be just and easy to understand. Also, the tax code should be a given that is rarely changed and if so only for good reason.
The status quo now in this country is of a constantly changing tax code which keeps a whole industry of lawyers and accountants and others busy. It is a monumental waste of human resources.
I filed my taxes electronically using a company’s online system, which required no special software. Granted, my taxes are fairly simple, but tax software if you need it just isn’t that expensive. Exempting people over a certain age (though my 81 year old mother is an ebay fool) and below a certain income level is already done for some taxes, so can be done here.
For the record, I also object on principle to the income tax, and object strenuously to the graduated income tax. But if we are going to pay the things, it’s not unreasonable to encourage the most efficient means of filing.
[i] Since the electronic returns are cheaper to process, why not give a [tax] credit for filing electronically? [/i]
Fine, but a $10 tax credit for electronic filers has exactly the same economic effect as a $10 fee for paper filers. Exactly the same. The difference is only in the packaging. Which underscores the irrationality of the tax tantrums on this thread.
If a conservative Republican governor proposed a $10 credit for electronic filers, we wouldn’t be hearing about torture, political corruption, the fiendishness of Democrats, and even the Holocaust. We might be hearing instead about efficiency, innovative solutions, and making government work more like a business.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
[i] This “paper filing fee†is an undue burden on the poor and elderly who often don’t have access to computers [/i]
That’s a reasonable point. If the state adopts this proposal, it should make appropriate exceptions (e.g., for adults making less than $20,000 and for taxpayers born before 1940).
Note, BTW, that most people pay a fee for filing their taxes electronically. Turbo-Tax charges $30-35 per state. A $10 credit for electronic filers (or $10 fee for paper files) modestly offsets that cost.
H&R;Block online was completely free, although they offered extra services for $9.95 and up. This is my 4th year doing it with them, and the first time it was free.
The whole process took about 45 minutes, after I had the paperwork together and I had my return in about 10 days without problems. We don’t have state income tax, but I think they was included at no extra cost as well.
Words Matter [#24]: There are ways to file free, at least in the case of federal returns. But most e-filers do end up paying fees. Like Turbo-Tax, H&R;Block offers a free federal e-filing option but charges $30 per state to e-file state returns.
this is called ORYX. We encountered it all the time in social service agencies I worked in. Our Requirement Your Expense (ORYX)
Once it is in place it will only go up!
How to be a great Democrat… tax taxes…
That’s the story of life in California. They haven’t thought of taxing us for filing taxes yet, but we pay county and state taxes, which are then squandered. Then we have to pay a fee for any service we request from the county or state government. Plus see the news media for what we’ve just gotten stuck with for, supposedly, making up the $42 billion dollar budget deficit.
desertpadere
It reminds me of the movie “Brazil,” where suspects are required to pay for their own interrogation and torture.
I think we see the priority of the State here.
Well, Germany in the 1930’s charged Jews for their own persecution. The idea, of course, was to steal Jewish money and assets legaly. Where here …. Never mind.
The charge is only for filing on *paper*.
Processing paper returns is vastly more expensive than processing ones filed online. I fully expect that someday the paper option will be taken away altogether. Meanwhile, asking people to pay for the extra cost they are imposing on their fellow taxpayers by using this antiquate and horribly inefficient method strikes me as completely reasonable.
Kendall,
You obviously haven’t lived in the East – these schemes are never-ending. PA used to have an “occupational privilege” tax you paid to a municipality for the “privilege” of working there. Several years ago they changed the name to the “municipal services” tax and increased it from $10.00 to $52.00 – this in addition to a state income tax on your gross income (no meaningful deductions can be carried over from your Federal return), a city “earned income” tax, a volunteer fire department tax in my township, an EMS tax in my township, and everywhere a “head tax” of $14.00 per person. So far they haven’t imposed an “respiration” tax for the privilege of breathing. If you own property, you are assessed a county property tax, a township property tax, and a school district property tax. There are all sorts of “charges”, in addition, for various services. So we pay taxes not to the municipality but to agencies hired to collect taxes for the municipalities. We pay for garbage collection – not to the political unit but to private contractors (part of PA’s commitment to income maintenance and enhancement for those who “earn” their living off state-mandated programs – perhaps the most notorious scam in PA is the “auto inspection” requirement which provides for all practical purposes a guaranteed income for “licensed” inspection stations.) I could go on, but you get the drift. I used to wonder why so many people fled south – after a while, you wake up and discover that if you stay, you will catch the insanity in a state where political corruption is a way of life, and the state is the employer of first resort.
#4 – Jeffersonian, that was my thought exactly.
“Don’t fight it son. Confess quickly! If you hold out too long you could jeopardize your credit rating.”
“Brazil, where hearts were entertained in June,
We stood beneath an amber moon,
And softly murmured ‘Some day soon’
We kissed and clung together,
Then, tomorrow was another day.
The morning found me miles away,
With still a million things to say,
Now, when twilight beams the sky above,
Recalling thrills of our love,
There’s one thing I’m certain of,
Return, I will,
To old Brazil.”
LongGone,
There is an additional cost for the tax payer to file the returns electronically. A computer is required. While it may be possible to file tax returns on a library computer, do you really want to do that?
If you do have a computer, then software is required to file the return electronically.
The best solution would be to do away with income tax (and, thus, income tax filing) and move to a retail sales tax. That way, the number of returns is significantly less and most businesses have the ability to file electronically.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
But Phil, IT folks besotted with the endless possibilities of the internet simply discount the existance of any significant numbers of neanderthals out there who aren’t as enlightened and in thrall to “on line” as themselves. If such people exist, they can safely be ignored as too stupid to matter.
[blockquote]The best solution would be to do away with income tax (and, thus, income tax filing) and move to a retail sales tax. That way, the number of returns is significantly less and most businesses have the ability to file electronically. [/blockquote]
The real question is “best for whom?” Doing away with the Internal Revenue Code might be great for business, great for taxpayers and super for the economy, but it would do serious damage to politicians’ ability to experiment with society through their byzantine rules, it would severely impair their ability to dispense favors (and thus restrict campaign donations), and restrict the government’s ability to surveille our lives (they’d no longer be acquainted with our investments, our daycare providers, the details of our purchases, eetc.). Needless to say, we will most certainly not get a national sales tax as a replacement for the IRS.
We should not be suprised, as #2 pointed out they are Dems.
Some years ago while living in Washington State, one had to pay via a 900 number to call any state agency.
Kendall, this is just the beginning. All those checks Mr. Obama and the Democrats are writing will have to be made good. The ‘full faith and credit’ they are being so (if you will excuse the expresssion) liberal in the exercise of is akin to being required to hand over your wallet when you express interest in something in a store and then being told you will get the wallet back when the store decides it has finished with it.
For a glimpse of the future get the DVD of the movie ‘Popeye’ starring Robin Williams. Note that the principal activity in the quaint little seafront town seems to be paying and collecting taxes.
You ain’t begun to see creativity in taxation, yet. Just wait.
Elections have consequences.
LongGone,
A lot of elderly do not have computers and internet access. Either beyond their budget or ability. A lot of poor don’t have it either. Shall they be punished in the name of progress?
My computer science teacher in 1976 said our society would be a paperless society by 2000. Though we’ve made great strides, but we’ve still got a long way to go.
Bottom line is that the government itself recognizes that paper money is worthless and they have to get real money from somewhere. If the government can issue me paper money that it prints why can’t I pay it paper money that I print?
Longgone is basically right. The proposal is in principle reasonable. It’s just as reasonable as the state treasury dept (or a car dealership, or a mortgage company) objecting to me sending in my payment as a mass of pennies. It creates a big burden for the recipient of all those coins.
Now of course, it’s fine if some people on this thread object to all income taxes — but then it’s a bit silly to chime in on this particular proposal. It’s like writing a letter to the editor saying how awful it would be for a very specific chain of Italian restaurants to open on a very specific street corner in a specific town — when in fact you object to anyone eating out at any restraurant. Your real objection is not to the specific restaurant, or its location, or its Italianness — but to just eating out period. There may be a good case for that, but it’s a bit odd to weigh on this particular instance.
Likewise, for this thread to really make sense, the universe of discourse should be people who think it’s a good or necessary thing to have income taxes, but who think this particular thing is bad. Otherwise the thread is about how all income taxes are bad — fine to talk about but not exactly the subject of the original piece.
Jon [#16]: You draw an apt analogy to the costs we would impose on our creditors if we paid our bills with “a mass of pennies.” That doesn’t necessarily mean the proposed $10 fee is wise, but it gives the lie to those commenters who see here only another opportunity for their endless anti-government caterwauling. And caterwauling it is, complete with self-pity and selective indignation.
Jon and Irenaeus,
While I object to Income Taxes on principle, I also think that this “paper filing fee” is an undo burden on the poor and elderly who often don’t have access to computers.
To file electronically requires and investment in capital and in software. Now I am relatively well off. I have enough money to purchase a computer and sofware. I find the cost of sofware to be less than the personal cost of manually doing my taxes. But there are people out there who cannot afford the sofware or the computer and they cannot afford to hire a tax firm.
Does it cost government more to process a paper return than an electronic one? Yes. But government bore that cost before the majority of returns were electronic. So why the tax now? Since the electronic returns are cheaper to process, why not give a $1.00 credit for filing electronically? I bet it is because the government wants more money (it’s appetite for money seems insatiable). So they tax the poorest to the last penny.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Dan in #7 writes:
I just love stuff like this…uh, Dan, sorry. I grew up the first 18 years of my life (except for a few months) in New Jersey, then I went to College for four years in…Maine. Last time I checked they both qualified for “the East” according to at least some definitions.
I do encourage people to stay on topic please. You would think reading some commenters that all government is a priori bad, which is a gnostic and not a Christian position. We need wiser and better government, and we need good Christians to be involved in godly service in this area.
My concern is with the overall trend that this illustrates, but not one often thought about, and that is tax multiplication and tax complexity. There should be taxes, but there should not be many of them and they should be just and easy to understand. Also, the tax code should be a given that is rarely changed and if so only for good reason.
The status quo now in this country is of a constantly changing tax code which keeps a whole industry of lawyers and accountants and others busy. It is a monumental waste of human resources.
I filed my taxes electronically using a company’s online system, which required no special software. Granted, my taxes are fairly simple, but tax software if you need it just isn’t that expensive. Exempting people over a certain age (though my 81 year old mother is an ebay fool) and below a certain income level is already done for some taxes, so can be done here.
For the record, I also object on principle to the income tax, and object strenuously to the graduated income tax. But if we are going to pay the things, it’s not unreasonable to encourage the most efficient means of filing.
[i] Since the electronic returns are cheaper to process, why not give a [tax] credit for filing electronically? [/i]
Fine, but a $10 tax credit for electronic filers has exactly the same economic effect as a $10 fee for paper filers. Exactly the same. The difference is only in the packaging. Which underscores the irrationality of the tax tantrums on this thread.
If a conservative Republican governor proposed a $10 credit for electronic filers, we wouldn’t be hearing about torture, political corruption, the fiendishness of Democrats, and even the Holocaust. We might be hearing instead about efficiency, innovative solutions, and making government work more like a business.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
[i] This “paper filing fee†is an undue burden on the poor and elderly who often don’t have access to computers [/i]
That’s a reasonable point. If the state adopts this proposal, it should make appropriate exceptions (e.g., for adults making less than $20,000 and for taxpayers born before 1940).
Note, BTW, that most people pay a fee for filing their taxes electronically. Turbo-Tax charges $30-35 per state. A $10 credit for electronic filers (or $10 fee for paper files) modestly offsets that cost.
H&R;Block online was completely free, although they offered extra services for $9.95 and up. This is my 4th year doing it with them, and the first time it was free.
The whole process took about 45 minutes, after I had the paperwork together and I had my return in about 10 days without problems. We don’t have state income tax, but I think they was included at no extra cost as well.
Words Matter [#24]: There are ways to file free, at least in the case of federal returns. But most e-filers do end up paying fees. Like Turbo-Tax, H&R;Block offers a free federal e-filing option but charges $30 per state to e-file state returns.