That should make it an interesting meeting, even more so if the consent process for the Diocese of Northern Michigan is deferred to General Convention. I suspect it will be difficult after Anaheim any longer to assert that the two wings of the Communion are are on diverging tracks. I wonder what the delegation from Central Florida (and Bishop Howe) will have to say to him.
[url=http://catholicandreformed.blogspot.com]Catholic and Reformed[/url]
his previous visits have been of little consequence, and I doubt this one will be any different. It’s really too bad, since he is in a position to effect change….
Then Rowan can have Gene Robinson and the Chicago Consultation lot (who are self selected homosexualists but have been given official recognition) yell at him about precious polity.
I guess this thread simply proves that the “self-selected orthodox” are as accepting of the ABC’s visit as the “self-selected liberals” on the HOB/D. It would be comical were it not so tragic. Both sides are clamoring that he needs to understand and to see what they are experiencing; yet, when he announces an intention to show up, neither want him. Lord have mercy.
hello, no.6 i understand what you are saying but the way i see it, he does understand what we are both going through, as witnessed by the great speech at lambeth. i suspect the criticism is because we want him to actually do something, not just postulate. even if under law he cannot change anything, since he is a spiritual leader he could actually affect things by his judgment and guidance and personal actions. it is the perpetual fence sitting that is so frustrating to all involved. i think he is brilliant, but a strong leader…he hasn’t really shown that side of himself from what i can discern, although i keep praying for it.
I pray that +Cantuar will do more than observe. However, I don’t know that it is his nature to do so. My fear is that the reappraising fundamentalists (those for whom blessing same sex unions is fundamental to the faith) will use his presence to claim his approval. While +Cantuar may be sympathetic to their views, he decidedly knows that the Church is not. He has said as much and I hope he speaks plainly about the need for bishops and priests to conform to to the Teaching and Practice of the Church and not try to conform the Church to their whims – no matter how honestly held.
mannainthewilderness tries and fails to draw an equivalency between the orthodox and the revisionists. The Chicago Consultation has be officially recognized and will participate in GC09 as such. Will the “self-selected” orthodoxy do so? How about the Communion Partners?
When everyone is at the table everything is fine. There is no division and no schism. His presence negates the realities. Excuse me, I’m going to another table.
Au contraire #6. I, for one, don’t give a flying fig whether ++Cantuar shows up at GC09 or not. It won’t make the slightest bit of difference in the outcome. TECusaCorp will put on a top notch dog and pony show for him and, after he leaves, will proceed to do whatever they please and the Anglican Communion be damned.
Well, if nothing else, the true nuttiness that TEC likes to put on display will likely be toned down with ++Rowan there. That’s a blessing. It’s painful to see such a once-dignified church looking like a sideshow in the press coverage. And ++Rowan IS a brilliant speaker, so that will lend some substance to the proceedings.
#11 the equivalency is in the “welcoming attitude” expressed by both sides in this thread and the one on the HOB/D listserv. Perhaps, if the “self-selected orthodox” had chosen to stay in the sandbox and fight for their church rather than moving to greener pastures, they could have had as much involvement at this convention as the “self-selected liberals” of the Chicago Consultation. I understand that some bishops in CA, OH, CT, NY, and other parts of the country were openly hostile to traditional Christians, and that they acted for the preservation of the church in good faith. But can we say that was honestly the case in other parts of the country? How many churches left faithful bishops? How many parishioners left faithful churches?
And as for those of us clamoring for the ABC to do something, what exactly is he supposed to do? He has no real material power. It is not like he is the pope. We demand our autonomy when it suits us, but want him to fix it when our autonomy is a problem. His [i]Indaba[/i] efforts were not quite the failure that so many want to portray. Did the understandings go the way most of us on this list would like? Nope. Were the eyes of some bishops opened by their encounters with faithful bishops? No doubt. Were they reminded that their calling is to one Church? We can hope and pray. The Kingdom is like the mustard seed. This problem in the church was decades being made and it will not be fixed overnight unless He comes again.
But for the two sides to clamor for the rights to the mantle of true Anglicanism to be as unwelcoming of the ABC as the sides have been reveals much about us. Would that the world knew us for how we love one another and not for our judgments and snitfits that we throw, even when our first among equals comes to visit. . .
I have a certain sympathy with your arguments (although I don’t think the extremely diverse field of commentators on T19 is your best target). Certainly conservatives – of all shades – can become as convinced of their unique access to truth as liberals, to the detriment of actually proclaiming the Gospel.
But you did ask what the Archbishop of Canterbury is supposed to DO.
I would answer not that he should excommunicate the “liberal offenders” (deliberate quotes) or declare ACNA the one true church, but simply uphold the logical consequences of his own statements about the mind of the Communion. If he believes the whole “conservative-inspired fracas” (again deliberate quotes) since 2003 to have been misguided he should have said so and let the chips fall where they may. If not, he should have rebuked the failure to abide by the Dar Communique, even had he no power to do anything practical about it. Furthermore, a Lambeth Conference that was selective in its invitations (how about no American bishops of extra-provincial origin and no TEC bishops consenting to Gene Robinson’s consecration) would have sent a message of absolute Windsor parity. That did not happen and we are now living with the consequences.
[i] Living Church: Archbishop Williams Will Attend General Convention 2009 [/i]
Hard to see much potential for good here.
— By attending GC 2009, Abp. Williams risks becoming complicit in its misdeeds. Look forward to lots of process-talk about how he joined in indabalating and unbuntfying ECUSA’s polity and its agenda of liberation and inclusion.
— If Williams had a principled backbone, he might be suitably appalled by what passes for theological discourse in ECUSA. Several years ago we might have reasonably hoped that a good dose of ECUSA would clear his mind. Not any more—not after New Orleans 2007 and Lambeth 2008. Williams has made his bed with ECUSA: with its lies, with its bullying, with its heresies, and with its money. In dealing with ECUSA, he Neville really says never.
#17 asks a good question, i.e. What should the ABC do? But I think that the ABC has conclusively proven that he doesn’t want to do anything about TEC.
Since 2003 the ABC has effectively prevented the other Instruments from doing anything to discipline TEC. When confronted with clear requests by the Primates (Dromantine, Dar) the ABC has simply passively failed to follow through. Remember the Panel of Reference, or the Primatial vicar ideas? The Lambeth “indaba” format ensured that the bishops [i]qua[/i] conference could never reach the issue of TEC’s compliance with the moratoria.
When he could act alone, the ABC has consistently shielded TEC from any response by the Communion. For example, the ABC invited all the TEC bishops to Lambeth, before TEC answered the Dar demands. Those invitations removed the single strongest incentive TEC had to comply with Dar. The ABC interpreted the HoB’s response at New Orleans as compliant with Dar, when it clearly was not.
In sum, the ABC has prevented the Communion from responding to TEC [i] as the Communion is now structured.[/i] I think that the relative harmony at Alexandria signifies that the Primates have recognized that the Communion, as now structured, cannot function with respect to TEC. While the ABC and TEC may see this as a tactical victory, it is really a strategic defeat, in that the Communion, as currently structured, will not survive.
With that background, what would the ABC do to influence events at Anaheim? He could warn, but he has warned before (remember his request for Bp. Robinson to decline consecration?) and TEC has ignored those warnings. The ABC’s protection of TEC since 2003 makes any warnings now incredible.
So from a reasserter perspective, I am complacent regarding whether the ABC attends GC 2009. It does not matter, because the “recognition” of ACNA or “discipline” of TEC will not happen by the Communion as a Communion. I also disagree with those who think that the ABC’s presence will cause the reappraisers to “tone it down”. From what I’ve seen on their sites, they are more fristrated with Rowan than we are and will use his presence as a chance to demonstrate their prophetic ministry.
The imprimatur of presence will be used to validate all that the ECUSA/TEC/GCC/EO-PAC has done to date and all that it will do after he leaves. If the ABC does NOT realize this, he is not nearly as bright a light in the firmament of relationships as he holds himself to be. If the ABC DOES realise this, he is deliberately approving the course for the entire Anglican Communion. Sleep with dogs, get up fleas. Surely they have an Welsh equivalent he has known from knee-high to a grasshopper.
#10 Phil S.
“While +Cantuar may be sympathetic to their views, he decidedly knows that the Church is not.” And that good man is a problem. He remains double minded and has provided space for TEC to advance. He will probably be seated with Bishop Robinson for his meals when he is on TEC turf. Lots of photo ops for TEC.
21. Publius,
Of course he doesn’t want to do anything about TEC. Follow the money. Cantaur has been purchased.
Yes, TEC has split the communion. The larger part (Global South) will move forward with the Gospel of Jesus. The smaller part will sit and enjoy their own gospel until they fade away.
It’s one thing to assert that Rowan Williams sympathizes with TEC’s theology; quite another to suggest that he can be bought. I would have hoped we could refrain from these sort of observations, especially in this Lenten Season.
That should make it an interesting meeting, even more so if the consent process for the Diocese of Northern Michigan is deferred to General Convention. I suspect it will be difficult after Anaheim any longer to assert that the two wings of the Communion are are on diverging tracks. I wonder what the delegation from Central Florida (and Bishop Howe) will have to say to him.
[url=http://catholicandreformed.blogspot.com]Catholic and Reformed[/url]
his previous visits have been of little consequence, and I doubt this one will be any different. It’s really too bad, since he is in a position to effect change….
Perhaps the institutional Liberals have invited him hoping that his presence will 1) give them a spine and 2) cause the crazies pause.
Given his previous actions when exposed to large quantities of Episcopalians, all I can say is: Get ready for some industrial strength equivocations.
Also, anyone who believes the revisionistas will be on their best behaviour because the ABC is present had better think again.
the snarksterâ„¢
Then Rowan can have Gene Robinson and the Chicago Consultation lot (who are self selected homosexualists but have been given official recognition) yell at him about precious polity.
I guess this thread simply proves that the “self-selected orthodox” are as accepting of the ABC’s visit as the “self-selected liberals” on the HOB/D. It would be comical were it not so tragic. Both sides are clamoring that he needs to understand and to see what they are experiencing; yet, when he announces an intention to show up, neither want him. Lord have mercy.
Well 6, I don’t care one way or the other. Nothing has happened in the past 6 years and nothing will continue to happen.
actually #6, I think it’s time to move past expecting anything from +++Rowan – he’s had numerous chances to help steer the AC towards safe harbor and has decided to just drift at sea (and will eventually run aground). No need to clamor for his understanding – I accept he’s coming here but I don’t think it matters – he’s become passé.
hello, no.6 i understand what you are saying but the way i see it, he does understand what we are both going through, as witnessed by the great speech at lambeth. i suspect the criticism is because we want him to actually do something, not just postulate. even if under law he cannot change anything, since he is a spiritual leader he could actually affect things by his judgment and guidance and personal actions. it is the perpetual fence sitting that is so frustrating to all involved. i think he is brilliant, but a strong leader…he hasn’t really shown that side of himself from what i can discern, although i keep praying for it.
I pray that +Cantuar will do more than observe. However, I don’t know that it is his nature to do so. My fear is that the reappraising fundamentalists (those for whom blessing same sex unions is fundamental to the faith) will use his presence to claim his approval. While +Cantuar may be sympathetic to their views, he decidedly knows that the Church is not. He has said as much and I hope he speaks plainly about the need for bishops and priests to conform to to the Teaching and Practice of the Church and not try to conform the Church to their whims – no matter how honestly held.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
mannainthewilderness tries and fails to draw an equivalency between the orthodox and the revisionists. The Chicago Consultation has be officially recognized and will participate in GC09 as such. Will the “self-selected” orthodoxy do so? How about the Communion Partners?
When everyone is at the table everything is fine. There is no division and no schism. His presence negates the realities. Excuse me, I’m going to another table.
Au contraire #6. I, for one, don’t give a flying fig whether ++Cantuar shows up at GC09 or not. It won’t make the slightest bit of difference in the outcome. TECusaCorp will put on a top notch dog and pony show for him and, after he leaves, will proceed to do whatever they please and the Anglican Communion be damned.
the snarksterâ„¢
Well, if nothing else, the true nuttiness that TEC likes to put on display will likely be toned down with ++Rowan there. That’s a blessing. It’s painful to see such a once-dignified church looking like a sideshow in the press coverage. And ++Rowan IS a brilliant speaker, so that will lend some substance to the proceedings.
#5 — Must have missed a meeting! What constitutes “official recognition” for the Chicago Consultation?
#11 the equivalency is in the “welcoming attitude” expressed by both sides in this thread and the one on the HOB/D listserv. Perhaps, if the “self-selected orthodox” had chosen to stay in the sandbox and fight for their church rather than moving to greener pastures, they could have had as much involvement at this convention as the “self-selected liberals” of the Chicago Consultation. I understand that some bishops in CA, OH, CT, NY, and other parts of the country were openly hostile to traditional Christians, and that they acted for the preservation of the church in good faith. But can we say that was honestly the case in other parts of the country? How many churches left faithful bishops? How many parishioners left faithful churches?
And as for those of us clamoring for the ABC to do something, what exactly is he supposed to do? He has no real material power. It is not like he is the pope. We demand our autonomy when it suits us, but want him to fix it when our autonomy is a problem. His [i]Indaba[/i] efforts were not quite the failure that so many want to portray. Did the understandings go the way most of us on this list would like? Nope. Were the eyes of some bishops opened by their encounters with faithful bishops? No doubt. Were they reminded that their calling is to one Church? We can hope and pray. The Kingdom is like the mustard seed. This problem in the church was decades being made and it will not be fixed overnight unless He comes again.
But for the two sides to clamor for the rights to the mantle of true Anglicanism to be as unwelcoming of the ABC as the sides have been reveals much about us. Would that the world knew us for how we love one another and not for our judgments and snitfits that we throw, even when our first among equals comes to visit. . .
#16,
I have a certain sympathy with your arguments (although I don’t think the extremely diverse field of commentators on T19 is your best target). Certainly conservatives – of all shades – can become as convinced of their unique access to truth as liberals, to the detriment of actually proclaiming the Gospel.
But you did ask what the Archbishop of Canterbury is supposed to DO.
I would answer not that he should excommunicate the “liberal offenders” (deliberate quotes) or declare ACNA the one true church, but simply uphold the logical consequences of his own statements about the mind of the Communion. If he believes the whole “conservative-inspired fracas” (again deliberate quotes) since 2003 to have been misguided he should have said so and let the chips fall where they may. If not, he should have rebuked the failure to abide by the Dar Communique, even had he no power to do anything practical about it. Furthermore, a Lambeth Conference that was selective in its invitations (how about no American bishops of extra-provincial origin and no TEC bishops consenting to Gene Robinson’s consecration) would have sent a message of absolute Windsor parity. That did not happen and we are now living with the consequences.
Gee, he’s get to visit Never-Never Land and then he can go to Disneyland!
[i] Living Church: Archbishop Williams Will Attend General Convention 2009 [/i]
Hard to see much potential for good here.
— By attending GC 2009, Abp. Williams risks becoming complicit in its misdeeds. Look forward to lots of process-talk about how he joined in indabalating and unbuntfying ECUSA’s polity and its agenda of liberation and inclusion.
— If Williams had a principled backbone, he might be suitably appalled by what passes for theological discourse in ECUSA. Several years ago we might have reasonably hoped that a good dose of ECUSA would clear his mind. Not any more—not after New Orleans 2007 and Lambeth 2008. Williams has made his bed with ECUSA: with its lies, with its bullying, with its heresies, and with its money. In dealing with ECUSA, he Neville really says never.
[i] He gets to visit Never-Never Land! [/i]
Without ever leaving his mind’s Neville-Neville Land.
#17 asks a good question, i.e. What should the ABC do? But I think that the ABC has conclusively proven that he doesn’t want to do anything about TEC.
Since 2003 the ABC has effectively prevented the other Instruments from doing anything to discipline TEC. When confronted with clear requests by the Primates (Dromantine, Dar) the ABC has simply passively failed to follow through. Remember the Panel of Reference, or the Primatial vicar ideas? The Lambeth “indaba” format ensured that the bishops [i]qua[/i] conference could never reach the issue of TEC’s compliance with the moratoria.
When he could act alone, the ABC has consistently shielded TEC from any response by the Communion. For example, the ABC invited all the TEC bishops to Lambeth, before TEC answered the Dar demands. Those invitations removed the single strongest incentive TEC had to comply with Dar. The ABC interpreted the HoB’s response at New Orleans as compliant with Dar, when it clearly was not.
In sum, the ABC has prevented the Communion from responding to TEC [i] as the Communion is now structured.[/i] I think that the relative harmony at Alexandria signifies that the Primates have recognized that the Communion, as now structured, cannot function with respect to TEC. While the ABC and TEC may see this as a tactical victory, it is really a strategic defeat, in that the Communion, as currently structured, will not survive.
With that background, what would the ABC do to influence events at Anaheim? He could warn, but he has warned before (remember his request for Bp. Robinson to decline consecration?) and TEC has ignored those warnings. The ABC’s protection of TEC since 2003 makes any warnings now incredible.
So from a reasserter perspective, I am complacent regarding whether the ABC attends GC 2009. It does not matter, because the “recognition” of ACNA or “discipline” of TEC will not happen by the Communion as a Communion. I also disagree with those who think that the ABC’s presence will cause the reappraisers to “tone it down”. From what I’ve seen on their sites, they are more fristrated with Rowan than we are and will use his presence as a chance to demonstrate their prophetic ministry.
The imprimatur of presence will be used to validate all that the ECUSA/TEC/GCC/EO-PAC has done to date and all that it will do after he leaves. If the ABC does NOT realize this, he is not nearly as bright a light in the firmament of relationships as he holds himself to be. If the ABC DOES realise this, he is deliberately approving the course for the entire Anglican Communion. Sleep with dogs, get up fleas. Surely they have an Welsh equivalent he has known from knee-high to a grasshopper.
#10 Phil S.
“While +Cantuar may be sympathetic to their views, he decidedly knows that the Church is not.” And that good man is a problem. He remains double minded and has provided space for TEC to advance. He will probably be seated with Bishop Robinson for his meals when he is on TEC turf. Lots of photo ops for TEC.
21. Publius,
Of course he doesn’t want to do anything about TEC. Follow the money. Cantaur has been purchased.
Yes, TEC has split the communion. The larger part (Global South) will move forward with the Gospel of Jesus. The smaller part will sit and enjoy their own gospel until they fade away.
#24,
It’s one thing to assert that Rowan Williams sympathizes with TEC’s theology; quite another to suggest that he can be bought. I would have hoped we could refrain from these sort of observations, especially in this Lenten Season.