Any chance this is a parliamentary tactic by the “leadership” to avoid passage of C056 (three more years of fudge)? Perhaps the business calendar in the HoD will be too fully booked and time for consideration will run out as GC ends.
cmsigler–Have you been to GC lately? If they tried to kill this that way, you have never seen furies in movies to resemble what would be going on in Anaheim.
#1. This is more likely a move to allow time for deputies to negotiate with bishops over some change that they want to propose. In candor the change could make it worse or better. I doubt though that bishops will allow such as it appears that resolution was drafted with real difficulty.
I have been puzzling over the absence of comment by two groups:
1. The Global South – they probably no longer bother with TEC or increasingly with the Communion Instruments.
2. The English liberals – they having been noting what is going on but not exactly full of approbation for what TEC is doing.
The latter are a puzzle but the penny dropped when I read this:
[blockquote] This is what we have lost because TEC has chosen autonomy over communion. Those of us who are committed to 1.10 in its entirety want Anglicanism to have a meaningful process of reflection and discernment on what the Gospel means in a society in which same-sex relationships are broadly acceptable. It is a rejection of the process of discernment to presume an immediate insight into its conclusion before undertaking the hard work of sharing and reflecting with those who are cautious about or in disagreement with your analysis.
Just as their consecration of Gene Robinson foreclosed the debate in 2003, in their haste, I wonder if The Gay Church has in fact stopped the ‘Listening process’ in its tracks.
Highly unlikely, cmsigler, that the HOD will avoid deciding on C056. After all, theirs is the more liberal of the two bodies, and it would be inexcusable to leave Anaheim without something like this in their pockets (for most, at least).
. . . and camera ready copies of the compiled SSx liturgies will go to the publishers by noon. (smiley here)
It’s not exactly like [i]deja vu[/i] but similar.
And a lot of this fits [i]vuja de[/i] def #1:
[i]Vuja de is the direct opposite. It’s when something or somewhere that should be familiar is suddenly very different. [/i] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vuja de
If the HOD doesn’t take it up until Friday, doesn’t that mean they pretty much have to approve it as-is or let it die? If they amend it, I wouldn’t think there’d be time for it to go back to the HOB for them to approve the amended version.
The temptation is to read too much into this. It’s likely just a scheduling crunch. There’s no doubt this would fly through the HoD if the HoB passed it…the HoB is the Politburo, the HoD are the Khmer Rouge.
I rather suspect the postponement of the vote on C056 has something to do with this (see +Graham Kings in the second comment) http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/forum/thread.cfm?thread=12100
“The Archbishop of Canterbury is likely to make a comment once the House of Deputies has voted.”
At the final news conference with postponement:
ENS- “What reaction do you expect from the Communion on your generous offer to engage them on the issue of their continued discrimination against women, gays, lesbians, transgendered folks, bi-sexuals….(this goes on for a while)”
KJS- “We will have to wait and see how the Communion receives our generous offers to continue dialogue.”
If they vote on it this Thursday, news conference looks like this:
NY Times: “As of this morning, 3 more provinces of the Communion have announced that a state of communion no longer exists with TEC- all ties have been broken. 6 others released statements that TEC had breached its solemn promises made to them at Lambeth, and previously at the Primates meeting. Would you care to comment?”
KJS- “I have no comment at this time”
London Times: “The ABoC has issued a statement condemning the actions taken at GC and has called an emergency Primates meeting. Have you been invited to this meeting?”
KJS- “What mee…..I have no comment at this time.”
Washington Post- “Is it true that TEC is now in impaired Communion with at least 11 bishops of the CoE?”
KJS- “I have no comment at this time.”
See the difference? That is why they want the vote as late as possible. Whatever Rowan or others have to say will probably wait until after the vote. In order to avoid big name media asking questions that will be seen by 1/2 million Piskies before Sunday morning, they want complete control over the spin, and they want it in Episcopal Life in a week or 2. They will give interviews to a few chosen media types sometime next week.
It was delayed until Friday morning so the House of Deputies can today deal with legislation originating in their house in order to move work through the pipeline and get it to bishops tomorrow.
C056 will be one of the resolutions submitted for concurrance tomorrow and will come to the floor at 9:30am
G’day Pageantmaster #4 – which form of greeting should indicate something of my own whereabouts these days!
I remain in touch with many in UK (with your crowd therefore) and Africa, and at this time am not too surprised that the blogs have not been invaded by many GS types. (I note for example the lines of discussion on StandFirm re +NTW’s letter: appropriately ACNA + CP dominated, with questions of due support uppermost – via the Covenant would be my best option.) They are possibly waiting for some dust to settle; Africa time and all that. But this does not imply disinterest, in my view: rather, Chew’s membership of the Working Group is most significant. And my friends in Africa are simply biding their time. And despite Aspinal’s involvement in ACC 14, the very delay of RCD will now work (I suspect) in favour of a robust Section 4 eventually. All to the better.
As for CoE liberal types. You are surely right to reference Oliver O’Donovan’s line, with which I myself concur – the real conversation has barely begun … which concurs therefore with TEC’s true “haste”. “Moral intuitionâ€, either conservative or liberal, may never in fact replace the sheer hard work of practical reasoning collectively, i.e. in conciliar mode. Even if after some 25 years of such reasoning/conversation myself, I have concluded that SSBs are seriously flawed, contradicting the Good, the True and the Beautiful, let alone therefore the Holiness of the God and Father of Jesus. (Indeed, I fancy few have really explored the aesthetic of desire – apart from perhaps Michael Vasey; RIP). Though I do note ECLA’s imminent decision-making, which of course has another hermeneutic altogether via their Two Covenant schema …!
So; watch this space for the elephants of Africa to awake. For when they do, us mere stands of grass (speaking for myself!) should pay attention!
I would not call it a postponement, actually. It is what the Rules of Order in the House of Deputies refer to as a “Special Order of Business,” which simply guarantees that a particular resolution will be considered at a “time certain.” Another way of looking at it is that it guarantees that a particular resolution will definitely be dealt with and not die because the mandatory time for adjournment arrived before it could be considered.
Today the House of Deputies gave priority to resolutions that still have to go to the House of Bishops so that the Bishops could receive them and deal with them before they adjourn tomorrow.
G’day art #15
Yup, the African elephants like the rest of us may be just watching as this all plays itself out. I suspect there may well be frustration in the US liberal camp. They have gone for broke this GC and have steered TEC off the cliff.
As you probably know in the UK in the ’70’s the Labour Party was infiltrated by the Trotskyite ‘Militant Tendency’. It took the real party a long hard battle to regain control out of the activists hands but they did so, and in doing so made themselves once again electable. Unfortunately this won’t happen with TEC as the Trots are firmly entrenched although I admire the witness of those standing still within it.
TEC tomorrow will have finally completed its morph into The Gay Church under the control of Integrity with its Trotskyist entrists at the helm, rainbow flags held aloft by children instead of palms and the Cross of Christ. They have no interest in Christ save as a slogan.
A battle won for the Trots as they have taken TEC but lost the war. They wanted TEC as a line into influence in the Communion, which if they took that as well would give them an enormous organisation which has influence all over the world for their agenda.
Now this won’t happen. It is very sad for TEC who have thrown over the King but good for the rest of the Communion.
Morning squire! Aka Pageantmaster. I sense your 1970s parallel is most helpful; thank you; and to amplify it a little.
It is significant that most of TEC’s leadership comes from a generation who drank deeply from the wells of the New Left, either directly or osmotically. Nor is it at all insignificant we find now in this closing first decade of the 21st C Liberation Theology in much of the Two-thirds world has given way to forms of Pentecostalism (both old and new) which naturally include profound outreach amongst the poor, health programmes, and the like. I.e. what was once to a degree ideologically driven is now simply and innately due fruit of the Gospel itself – praise the Lord! No Millennium Goals stuff needed – even if some would still wish to see such as “co-belligerentsâ€, as Ellul once put it.
All in all – to keep on thread! – we are probably witnessing a last hurrah of “the failure of the liberal paradigm†(O’Donovan). Yet for all that, dying animals are often at their fiercest … So; a call for more bold and wise actions by AC leadership needs to rise to a crescendo … Cross reference to Fulcrum’s latest and typical analysis: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=446
pax et gaudium, as that other African of old would say!
Any chance this is a parliamentary tactic by the “leadership” to avoid passage of C056 (three more years of fudge)? Perhaps the business calendar in the HoD will be too fully booked and time for consideration will run out as GC ends.
Clemmitt
cmsigler–Have you been to GC lately? If they tried to kill this that way, you have never seen furies in movies to resemble what would be going on in Anaheim.
#1. This is more likely a move to allow time for deputies to negotiate with bishops over some change that they want to propose. In candor the change could make it worse or better. I doubt though that bishops will allow such as it appears that resolution was drafted with real difficulty.
I have been puzzling over the absence of comment by two groups:
1. The Global South – they probably no longer bother with TEC or increasingly with the Communion Instruments.
2. The English liberals – they having been noting what is going on but not exactly full of approbation for what TEC is doing.
The latter are a puzzle but the penny dropped when I read this:
[blockquote] This is what we have lost because TEC has chosen autonomy over communion. Those of us who are committed to 1.10 in its entirety want Anglicanism to have a meaningful process of reflection and discernment on what the Gospel means in a society in which same-sex relationships are broadly acceptable. It is a rejection of the process of discernment to presume an immediate insight into its conclusion before undertaking the hard work of sharing and reflecting with those who are cautious about or in disagreement with your analysis.
O’Donovan cautioned against those conservatives who seek to “bring the whole discussion to a close”. It is deeply ironic that now it appears that TEC General Convention has decided to do this.
http://morethanaviamedia.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-we-have-lost.html%5B/blockquote%5D
Just as their consecration of Gene Robinson foreclosed the debate in 2003, in their haste, I wonder if The Gay Church has in fact stopped the ‘Listening process’ in its tracks.
May explain a lot.
Highly unlikely, cmsigler, that the HOD will avoid deciding on C056. After all, theirs is the more liberal of the two bodies, and it would be inexcusable to leave Anaheim without something like this in their pockets (for most, at least).
Darin+
Just takes time to get the ducks in a row, the balloons (rainbow colors of course) and bands……..
. . . and camera ready copies of the compiled SSx liturgies will go to the publishers by noon. (smiley here)
It’s not exactly like [i]deja vu[/i] but similar.
And a lot of this fits [i]vuja de[/i] def #1:
[i]Vuja de is the direct opposite. It’s when something or somewhere that should be familiar is suddenly very different. [/i]
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vuja de
If the HOD doesn’t take it up until Friday, doesn’t that mean they pretty much have to approve it as-is or let it die? If they amend it, I wouldn’t think there’d be time for it to go back to the HOB for them to approve the amended version.
I think Ross has the best insight so far.
My money is on Ross’s take. It will be a take it or leave it vote – no chance for amendment – because there will be no time for concurrence.
The temptation is to read too much into this. It’s likely just a scheduling crunch. There’s no doubt this would fly through the HoD if the HoB passed it…the HoB is the Politburo, the HoD are the Khmer Rouge.
I rather suspect the postponement of the vote on C056 has something to do with this (see +Graham Kings in the second comment)
http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/forum/thread.cfm?thread=12100
“The Archbishop of Canterbury is likely to make a comment once the House of Deputies has voted.”
At the final news conference with postponement:
ENS- “What reaction do you expect from the Communion on your generous offer to engage them on the issue of their continued discrimination against women, gays, lesbians, transgendered folks, bi-sexuals….(this goes on for a while)”
KJS- “We will have to wait and see how the Communion receives our generous offers to continue dialogue.”
If they vote on it this Thursday, news conference looks like this:
NY Times: “As of this morning, 3 more provinces of the Communion have announced that a state of communion no longer exists with TEC- all ties have been broken. 6 others released statements that TEC had breached its solemn promises made to them at Lambeth, and previously at the Primates meeting. Would you care to comment?”
KJS- “I have no comment at this time”
London Times: “The ABoC has issued a statement condemning the actions taken at GC and has called an emergency Primates meeting. Have you been invited to this meeting?”
KJS- “What mee…..I have no comment at this time.”
Washington Post- “Is it true that TEC is now in impaired Communion with at least 11 bishops of the CoE?”
KJS- “I have no comment at this time.”
See the difference? That is why they want the vote as late as possible. Whatever Rowan or others have to say will probably wait until after the vote. In order to avoid big name media asking questions that will be seen by 1/2 million Piskies before Sunday morning, they want complete control over the spin, and they want it in Episcopal Life in a week or 2. They will give interviews to a few chosen media types sometime next week.
It was delayed until Friday morning so the House of Deputies can today deal with legislation originating in their house in order to move work through the pipeline and get it to bishops tomorrow.
C056 will be one of the resolutions submitted for concurrance tomorrow and will come to the floor at 9:30am
See? I didn’t think the HoD would miss the opportunity to give another good primal scream of heresy before adjourning. In for a dime, in for a dollar.
[edited. elf]
G’day Pageantmaster #4 – which form of greeting should indicate something of my own whereabouts these days!
I remain in touch with many in UK (with your crowd therefore) and Africa, and at this time am not too surprised that the blogs have not been invaded by many GS types. (I note for example the lines of discussion on StandFirm re +NTW’s letter: appropriately ACNA + CP dominated, with questions of due support uppermost – via the Covenant would be my best option.) They are possibly waiting for some dust to settle; Africa time and all that. But this does not imply disinterest, in my view: rather, Chew’s membership of the Working Group is most significant. And my friends in Africa are simply biding their time. And despite Aspinal’s involvement in ACC 14, the very delay of RCD will now work (I suspect) in favour of a robust Section 4 eventually. All to the better.
As for CoE liberal types. You are surely right to reference Oliver O’Donovan’s line, with which I myself concur – the real conversation has barely begun … which concurs therefore with TEC’s true “haste”. “Moral intuitionâ€, either conservative or liberal, may never in fact replace the sheer hard work of practical reasoning collectively, i.e. in conciliar mode. Even if after some 25 years of such reasoning/conversation myself, I have concluded that SSBs are seriously flawed, contradicting the Good, the True and the Beautiful, let alone therefore the Holiness of the God and Father of Jesus. (Indeed, I fancy few have really explored the aesthetic of desire – apart from perhaps Michael Vasey; RIP). Though I do note ECLA’s imminent decision-making, which of course has another hermeneutic altogether via their Two Covenant schema …!
So; watch this space for the elephants of Africa to awake. For when they do, us mere stands of grass (speaking for myself!) should pay attention!
Thanks for replies, all. I do believe Ross has a pretty good take on this, assuming the delay has some strategic dimension.
Clemmitt
One would think that with such a busy schedule, that Ms. Russell wouldn’t have the time to be scanning the ‘net for commentary re: TEC’s heresy.
I would not call it a postponement, actually. It is what the Rules of Order in the House of Deputies refer to as a “Special Order of Business,” which simply guarantees that a particular resolution will be considered at a “time certain.” Another way of looking at it is that it guarantees that a particular resolution will definitely be dealt with and not die because the mandatory time for adjournment arrived before it could be considered.
Today the House of Deputies gave priority to resolutions that still have to go to the House of Bishops so that the Bishops could receive them and deal with them before they adjourn tomorrow.
Robert Munday+
G’day art #15
Yup, the African elephants like the rest of us may be just watching as this all plays itself out. I suspect there may well be frustration in the US liberal camp. They have gone for broke this GC and have steered TEC off the cliff.
As you probably know in the UK in the ’70’s the Labour Party was infiltrated by the Trotskyite ‘Militant Tendency’. It took the real party a long hard battle to regain control out of the activists hands but they did so, and in doing so made themselves once again electable. Unfortunately this won’t happen with TEC as the Trots are firmly entrenched although I admire the witness of those standing still within it.
TEC tomorrow will have finally completed its morph into The Gay Church under the control of Integrity with its Trotskyist entrists at the helm, rainbow flags held aloft by children instead of palms and the Cross of Christ. They have no interest in Christ save as a slogan.
A battle won for the Trots as they have taken TEC but lost the war. They wanted TEC as a line into influence in the Communion, which if they took that as well would give them an enormous organisation which has influence all over the world for their agenda.
Now this won’t happen. It is very sad for TEC who have thrown over the King but good for the rest of the Communion.
Morning squire! Aka Pageantmaster. I sense your 1970s parallel is most helpful; thank you; and to amplify it a little.
It is significant that most of TEC’s leadership comes from a generation who drank deeply from the wells of the New Left, either directly or osmotically. Nor is it at all insignificant we find now in this closing first decade of the 21st C Liberation Theology in much of the Two-thirds world has given way to forms of Pentecostalism (both old and new) which naturally include profound outreach amongst the poor, health programmes, and the like. I.e. what was once to a degree ideologically driven is now simply and innately due fruit of the Gospel itself – praise the Lord! No Millennium Goals stuff needed – even if some would still wish to see such as “co-belligerentsâ€, as Ellul once put it.
All in all – to keep on thread! – we are probably witnessing a last hurrah of “the failure of the liberal paradigm†(O’Donovan). Yet for all that, dying animals are often at their fiercest … So; a call for more bold and wise actions by AC leadership needs to rise to a crescendo … Cross reference to Fulcrum’s latest and typical analysis: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=446
pax et gaudium, as that other African of old would say!