Q: Some who have left call the church’s stance on homosexuality unbiblical
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(at a July convention, Episcopalians voted to allow gay bishops and blessings for same-sex unions). How concerned are you that people will continue to leave the church over these issues?
A: People have always decided to pursue their spiritual journeys elsewhere — some people — at times of controversy. Certainly, the same kind of thing happened when the church began wrestling honestly with the place of African-Americans in the church and the place of women in the church. At the same time, we tend to attract others who find our stances positive, so there is a give and take.
Q: On Thursday, 10 Episcopal nuns from a convent in Catonsville, Md. — 55 miles south of York — joined the Roman Catholic Church, saying they left in part because of the recent decisions on homosexuality. How did you respond to their departure?
A: I know that one of them did remain within the Episcopal Church.
I note the interesting dilemma that that situation raises. They would not have the freedom to make that kind of a decision once they were in the Roman Catholic Church. They do have the freedom to make that kind of a decision within the Episcopal Church. Religious orders are independent bodies within the Episcopal Church, they’re not like a congregation or a diocese, and they can vote to affiliate with another body. Once they’re in the Roman Catholic Church, they will not have that ability.
I think it is very funny that within the text of this post is an advertisement for online degrees…isn’t that really where Mrs. Schori got her theology degree…and wasn’t she dean of an online parish education program…all of which would explain her really off the mark answers in this also inteesting titled post, Q and Q…which it really is: questions and questionable answers
A: I know that one of them did remain within the Episcopal Church.
One of eleven? Sounds like about 9%. Does this show the future of TEC? 91% leaving?
Dear Faithful,
I thought the 2.4 million members cited at the bottom of the article was also questionable. Q & Q fits. Will they still claim 2.4 million after 91% have left?
Actually, I believe that 2 of the sisters remained Episcopalian. Note that the now Catholic community has a place for them and I suspect that since the Episcopal monastery was independent of the TEC power structures, sisters who became Catholic could also have remained.
Dr. Shori’s statement about the Catholic Church is false.
[blockquote]Q: Some who have left call the church’s stance on homosexuality unbiblical
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That’s a truly priceless typo.
“Once they’re in the Roman Catholic Church, they will not have that ability [to vote to leave].”
This is not correct. The ‘Benedictine Women’ of Madison, Wisconsin (http://www.benedictinewomen.org/index.html) have dis-affiliated from the RC Church. The full details of how it happened would no doubt be as long a story as the opposite trajectory by the All Saints Sisters, but at several points the Madison Benedictine Women did make fully conscious decisions that took them away from being in communion w/ Rome.
#4, Thanks for pointing out the false statements about the Catholic Church. It’s not that surprising, though. You can safely ignore 99% of comments that begin like “I used to be Catholic, so I know..”. Heck, the PB doesn’t show a great deal of knowledge of ANGLICAN practice and teaching, so why would we expect her to be any more erudite about Catholicism?
The Immaculate Heart Sisters of Los Angeles dis-affiliated from the RCC in 1970:
http://www.immaculateheartcommunity.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=214&Itemid=3
Do you notice anything in this statement:
[blockquote]Part of the role of the church also is to reach out to others in the community who do not have a faith tradition or an active Christian membership to spread the gospel there.[/blockquote]
What is the Church’s role with people active in other faith traditions? Oh, that’s right. We’re supposed to [url=http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/20/local/me-hindu20]apologize to them.[/url]
Q & Q indeed.
If one assumes that what the PB has said is true, that the Sisters cannot leave the Catholic Church once joined, then the message and implications are even more serious for TEO.
Why would they do this? Perhaps it is because they see the Catholic Church as remaining faithful to 2,000 years of Christianity according to the Bible, and expect that this Biblical faithfulness will continue.
Unlike TEO, which weather vanes with the cultural, secular, left wing political winds of the moment.
So now it’s an attribute of the Episcopal Church that folks have the freedom to leave and take their property with them. Interesting.
If that is a good thing – or at least worth mentioning – then what about a diocese? What about a parish? Why the lawsuits?
🙄
All is well.
Just how “independent” are religious orders in TEC? I assume TEC must have at least the power to inhibit religious orders from using the Episcopal brand.
I’m more interested in the first quoted question and answer (somewhat confused by the insertion of the advertisement. With that edited out:[blockquote]Q: Some who have left call the church’s stance on homosexuality unbiblical (at a July convention, Episcopalians voted to allow gay bishops and blessings for same-sex unions). How concerned are you that people will continue to leave the church over these issues?
A: People have always decided to pursue their spiritual journeys elsewhere — some people — at times of controversy. Certainly, the same kind of thing happened when the church began wrestling honestly with the place of African-Americans in the church and the place of women in the church. At the same time, we tend to attract others who find our stances positive, so there is a give and take.[/blockquote]This looks like a clear admission that the GC did indeed allow gay bishops and gay blessings; no more ambiguity from the PB.
Q: On Thursday, 10 Episcopal nuns from a convent in Catonsville, Md. — 55 miles south of York — joined the Roman Catholic Church, saying they left in part because of the recent decisions on homosexuality. How did you respond to their departure?
A: I know that one of them did remain within the Episcopal Church.
right out of Animal House – Dean Wormer: I just got your grades and you’re failing! Delta House President: we’re really hoping those mid term exams will boost our GPA!
She seems proud that we have lost all of those racists and homophobes who could not adjust to the righteous cause of TEC.
She avoided answering a lot of questions. She changed the subject or answered an entirely different question.
I want to call this bafflegab, but it isn’t that, not really. It is, in fact a veryh skillful performance in how to avoid answering questions one does not wish to answer. On the surface, it has a superficial air of the reasonable and rational. At all times, calm and judicious: We have had divisive arguments before and will have them again; and the church has adjusted nicelyto problems that seemed beyond resolution.
And yet, there is a deep dishonesty herein, for her responses do not in any way reflect the deliberate and aggressive violation of Christian practice that has marked her reign. She is papering over TEC’s real role in the world as if TEC’s transgressions existed only in the imaginations of certain – and very few they are – narrow souls.
This is all false false false false, and only the demise of TEC will bring this falsity into the daylight. There may be bone-deep self-deception here, but that changes nothing. Larry
“We’ve always had a variety of ways of being in relationship together, and I don’t think that will change”
But bishop, don’t all these things change once in a while? It’s like saying (C.S. Lewis first pointed this out) that you have a religion “without dogmas”. It’ difficult because that’s a dogmatic statement. It means she will only have those things up for grabs *she* wants up for grabs. She or any number of her congregations want things like the Creed to go away, fine. Real estate titles, not a chance. I hope she didn’t do science that way.
Indeed, Larry (#20), her “answers” show a very studied dissembling, and avoidance of really tackling the elephant sitting in the living room: TEC is hemorrhaging members, and it AIN’T simply explained away by “demographics,” “economics,” or whatever smokescreen she wants to use. I’m continually reminded of the scene in the Wizard of Oz of “Oz the Magnificent and Terrible,” and I’m waiting for Toto to pull the curtain back!
IIRC, the Catonsville sisters AND their chaplain clearly stated that, for them, swimming the Tiber was a necessary choice in the face of TEC’s profound heresies. I very much doubt that the real or fictional ability to disaffiliate from the RCC matters to them, since they believe that there will be no need to do so. But, I’ve noticed that +KJS never lets an opportunity to take a swipe at Catholicism go unused. Very Christian, that.
Notice also her dismissal of the ABC’s musings on a “two-track” AC. I think that any Communion conservatives who think that she or the HOB/D will let that happen on her watch are in sore need of reality testing (not that I expect for one nanosecond that ++RW will back up his musings with real action…).
Larry, you are so right about the dissembling and “deep dishonesty.” Note when questioned about the 10 nuns leaving and the reason being the church’s decisions on homosexuality, she totally ignores the allegation of the reasons they left. She first notes that 1 stayed (as if that is a defense?), and then she raises a strawman that no one asked about or cares about – they won’t be able to leave RCC like they just left TEC (which as noted is not true). I do believe this is called whistling past the graveyard. But I would ask if that is not the stance of almost all TEC bishops and clergy now – even moderate ones. Don’t focus on what’s salacious or what we really can’t defend; focus on anything else.
More on the inaccuracy of JKS re: Catholic religious electing to leave the RC Church:
http://catholickey.blogspot.com/2009/09/how-to-leave-church-and-keep-deed.html