KJS stated that evidence of gulttony is more problematic than homosexual behavior. Hum, this is a new revelation. Her phrase “preserving the assets” is more honest than the previous “preserving the legacy”.
What’s the feminine form of ‘Nero’? ‘Nera’?
Anyway, she’s doing more than fiddling while her see burns. She seems to be the one throwing the Molotov cocktails. Is it an extension of some kind of self-destructive behaviour?
OK, “we do not reject people” who exhibit “gluttony” or “excessive consumerism.” So, we’re back to the “two wrongs make a right” argument. The flip side of this line of reasoning, though, is that we do (or certainly would) reject people who are obvious alcoholics, or go to strip joints every weekend to pick up a new one-night-stand, etc. Schori wants to make it sound like everybody can really do whatever they want in this church, and that doesn’t bar them from ordination, so why should those choosing to engage in ongoing gay behavior be treated any differently? But the bottom line is, that isn’t true, not even of ECUSA; so it would be nice if she could dispense with the canard about discernment being open to everybody. The question is whether we discern out open sexual immorality; she knows that, I’m sure.
Other things that stand out:
– The open admission (at least she’s honest) that lawsuits are “a portion of our mission.” You don’t say?
– The revelation that ECUSA has “abundant resources.” I wonder why all the layoffs and cutbacks, and lives consequently wrecked in a way that would probably have her loudly pontificating if it were GE or Halliburton firing people?
– That she thinks ECUSA is a “multi-cultural church.” Mrs. Schori, you may want to check with your own statistical department. I’m sure it’s just down the hall from your office.
When I Mrs Schori going to get the picture that no amount of evasive language will cover up the fact that the empress has no clothes. We ALL know what’s going on, where it’s going, and where it’s going to end up. She’s made it perfectly crystal-clear what her agenda is. When is she going to simply and honestly lay her cards on the table? It’s all about power and money and sex.
Her logic is unbelievable. Following up on Phil’s comment:
PB said “we do not reject people†who exhibit “gluttony†or “excessive consumerism.†Exactly, we do not reject the people, we reject the acts. We don’t celebrate gluttony or excessive consumerism either. We don’t call them sacramental. We will the people, not the acts. We don’t say we we born wanting to do it, so it is OK.
At least she recognized (inadvertently) the parallels between homosexual acts and other sinful acts.
To me, it doesn’t look like Schori’s trying very hard to prove that she doesn’t want the Communion to splinter. Her so-called “inclusiveness” is the primary factor behind the splintering which she says she doesn’t want! When is this woman going to learn that she can’t have it both ways?
KJS: We did not see that as a reversal. The Canons or the Church Law of The Episcopal Church has for a long time said that the discernment process is open to any baptized person. So it does not represent a change. It represents a reaffirmation of what church law has said for a long time. It did not say anything about repudiating the statement that the bishops made in 2007.
NPR: So the bottom line is it fair to say that at least the door has been opened for gay and lesbian bishops in addition to Bishop Robinson.
KJS: The door has been open for many years.
NPR: So if an openly gay or lesbian person were to make it through to the stage where he or she could be consecrated bishop you would go ahead with that.
KJS: It is my duty, my canonical duty as Presiding Bishop, to take order for the consecration of a bishop whose election has been affirmed by the consent process.
NPR: The Archbishop of Canterbury said that we need to have a real thorough exploration of all of this and we need to have a wider consent within the communion in order to go ahead with either the consecration of gay bishops or blessings of gay unions. He said that does not exist in the communion right now. How do you feel about that?
KJS: The conversations been going on in The Episcopal Church for 45 years. The reality is that same-sex unions are blessed in many churches of the Anglican Communion. Not just in the United States or Canada but in the Church of England. Not officially but that is reality.
NPR: Do you think there is scriptural basis for what the convention did and what is it.
KJS: The scriptural basis for what the convention affirmed about our discernment process is that each human being is made in the image of God.
NPR: I think perhaps for some folks the distinction is not about how one is made but how one behaves. All of the arguments I’ve read center around behavior, ways of acting, is there a difference between the two?
KJS: In some circumstances yes. My experience in talking to people about this is that some people who object to the ordination of gay and lesbian people really begin with their orientation. They cannot see beyond that. Others will admit that gay and lesbian people might be created in the image of god and be fit mattered whatever their orientation. But object to the fact that some live in partnered relationships. What the church is really called to do is support all its members in living holy lives as exemplars of God’s love in the world. I think the biggest challenge we’re having right now is knowing what holy living looks like. We do not reject people who give evidence of gluttony; we do not prima facie reject people who give evidence of excessive consumerism. I think those are far more challenging issues than long-term committed relationships of a person with the same gender.
NPR: You said in a conversation with me last year that approaching people who disagree we need to be in conversation and that’s not lobbing words at each other its listening to each other. What would you say to somebody who says ‘ok this vote by the general convention is not conversation but a form of escalation’?
KJS: Legislative processes are not terrible conducive to conversation when we push something to a vote we create winners and losers. The decisions of General Convention last summer I don’t honestly believe pushed things any farther. We simply re-iterated what the standards of this church are at this time.
NPR: That is not what at least some of those who’ve been unhappy with it are saying their saying ‘this is legislation this is top down and it is going in the wrong direction.’
KJS: It’s hard to understand General Convention as being top down. It’s nearly 1,000, its more than a 1000 people gathered together representing the broad diversity of this Church, seeking discernment in the name of Christ together. It’s not an archbishop saying this is how things must be.
NPR: You’ve probably also hear people saying, ’this is going too slowly. If this is right, why not just do it the people who are gonna leave are gonna leave any why’?
KJS: Our tradition has been called the middle way for a very long time and its attention to the fact that we are called to deliberate action. Considered action. And it doesn’t happen as fast as some would like it. It happens faster than others would like.
NPR: But in the mean time you are spending more and more of your resources on legal battles. Doesn’t that take away from what the church should really be about?
KJS: The reality is that this is a portion of our mission. Preserving the assets of our church is a part of our responsibility. It’s certainly not the whole of our responsibility. There are abundant resources for the work of the gospel. Our task is to focus on the ways they can be most productive.
Thanks to Robert Lundy for posting the transcript.
This interview with NPR reminds me of a famous article that Dr. Philip Turner (of ACI, etc.) wrote about ++KJS several years ago, essentially posing the question of whether she was just grossly incompetent or actually wilfully perverse.
After watching her in action for three years now, I think the correct answer is unfortunately that she’s BOTH. Both incompetent and devious at the same time. She’s an absolute disaster.
New convert: Now that I have joined the Episcopal church, are there any rules to live by?
PB: Not really. We make up the rules as we go along by a process we call “discernment.” For example even though the Bible teaches against homosexual behavior, we talk about it and promote homosexuals to high positions and see how it works out. Then every one sits down at a big meeting and we talk about it some more. Eventually it works out that every body gets tired and agrees. The process includes all forms of perversion.
Convert: I see. Then there really is a way to dispose of sin. You just talk your way out of it. Wow, that’s a great religion. Do you suppose we could put adultery on the agenda for the next meeting??
[blockquote]We do not reject people who give evidence of gluttony; we do not prima facie reject people who give evidence of excessive consumerism. I think those are far more challenging issues than long-term committed relationships of a person with the same gender.[/blockquote]
I wonder what the LGBT community thinks about her comparing gluttony and excessive consumerism [Oniomania ?] to their relationships. It is interesting for her to use addictions for comparison to homosexual relationships. If she is OK with same gender relationships Why did she use these examples?
“NPR: I think perhaps for some folks the distinction is not about how one is made but how one behaves. All of the arguments I’ve read center around behavior, ways of acting…”
“It’s hard to understand General Convention as being “top-downâ€. It’s nearly a thousand…it’s more than a thousand people gathered together representing the broad diversity of this church seeking discernment in the name of Christ together. It is not an Archbishop saying ‘This is how things must be’.â€
Attorneys across the country take note: Ms. Schori just admitted TEC is NOT a hierarchical church.
“Here we are in the Episcopal Church with arms open to everyone who isn’t interested.” That is the pitiful implication of Katherine Jefforts Schori’s vision of what TEC not only is, but also should be.
I was struck by a couple of things (besides those already described — great transcript, by the way, Mr. Lundy):
I kept being amazed that I was actually listening to an NPR affiliate; the questions were really meaty and not just the lobbing of Nerf balls, such as one has become accustomed to by the media at large, and certainly public broadcasting.
KJS+ actually used the phrase “kingdom of God” near the end, as opposed to “reign of God,” etc. It really surprised me that she would use that phrase at any time (perhaps because she was in Bible-belt Georgia, not New England?)
OK–General Convention is 1000+, we have somewhat officially 2 million people on the books, and maybe 700,000 in ASA. I’m bad at math but that would be .0005% of “members” and .0014% of ASA. She’s right TEC is not a hierarchy, its an oligarchy, or an elite-ocracy, or a tyranny of those who can show up, or a kleptocracy, but it is definitely not a hierarchy.
Further to orthodoxwill and Eastern Anglican, I will say again – and perhaps it’s always been my fault – but in something like 25 adult years of being Episcopalian, I was asked once to give input into a GC deputation, and never knew who they were, certainly not before the Anglican blogosphere took off after the Gotterdammerung of 2003.
The notion that GC is “representative” like a Congressman is representative is false. It is an unaccountable mob.
Is there gonna be gluttony hit list? You know, like the Bonnie Anderson women’s ordination compliance posse? Cause, if there is, somebody ought to give Bruno a heads up! Maybe they have gyms in his diocese?
KJS stated that evidence of gulttony is more problematic than homosexual behavior. Hum, this is a new revelation. Her phrase “preserving the assets” is more honest than the previous “preserving the legacy”.
Next will come a variation on that early 70’s theme, “We have to destroy this church in order to save it …”
What’s the feminine form of ‘Nero’? ‘Nera’?
Anyway, she’s doing more than fiddling while her see burns. She seems to be the one throwing the Molotov cocktails. Is it an extension of some kind of self-destructive behaviour?
OK, “we do not reject people” who exhibit “gluttony” or “excessive consumerism.” So, we’re back to the “two wrongs make a right” argument. The flip side of this line of reasoning, though, is that we do (or certainly would) reject people who are obvious alcoholics, or go to strip joints every weekend to pick up a new one-night-stand, etc. Schori wants to make it sound like everybody can really do whatever they want in this church, and that doesn’t bar them from ordination, so why should those choosing to engage in ongoing gay behavior be treated any differently? But the bottom line is, that isn’t true, not even of ECUSA; so it would be nice if she could dispense with the canard about discernment being open to everybody. The question is whether we discern out open sexual immorality; she knows that, I’m sure.
Other things that stand out:
– The open admission (at least she’s honest) that lawsuits are “a portion of our mission.” You don’t say?
– The revelation that ECUSA has “abundant resources.” I wonder why all the layoffs and cutbacks, and lives consequently wrecked in a way that would probably have her loudly pontificating if it were GE or Halliburton firing people?
– That she thinks ECUSA is a “multi-cultural church.” Mrs. Schori, you may want to check with your own statistical department. I’m sure it’s just down the hall from your office.
Reminds me of “I voted against it before I voted for it.”
When I Mrs Schori going to get the picture that no amount of evasive language will cover up the fact that the empress has no clothes. We ALL know what’s going on, where it’s going, and where it’s going to end up. She’s made it perfectly crystal-clear what her agenda is. When is she going to simply and honestly lay her cards on the table? It’s all about power and money and sex.
Her logic is unbelievable. Following up on Phil’s comment:
PB said “we do not reject people†who exhibit “gluttony†or “excessive consumerism.†Exactly, we do not reject the people, we reject the acts. We don’t celebrate gluttony or excessive consumerism either. We don’t call them sacramental. We will the people, not the acts. We don’t say we we born wanting to do it, so it is OK.
At least she recognized (inadvertently) the parallels between homosexual acts and other sinful acts.
To me, it doesn’t look like Schori’s trying very hard to prove that she doesn’t want the Communion to splinter. Her so-called “inclusiveness” is the primary factor behind the splintering which she says she doesn’t want! When is this woman going to learn that she can’t have it both ways?
Here is a rough transcript.
KJS: We did not see that as a reversal. The Canons or the Church Law of The Episcopal Church has for a long time said that the discernment process is open to any baptized person. So it does not represent a change. It represents a reaffirmation of what church law has said for a long time. It did not say anything about repudiating the statement that the bishops made in 2007.
NPR: So the bottom line is it fair to say that at least the door has been opened for gay and lesbian bishops in addition to Bishop Robinson.
KJS: The door has been open for many years.
NPR: So if an openly gay or lesbian person were to make it through to the stage where he or she could be consecrated bishop you would go ahead with that.
KJS: It is my duty, my canonical duty as Presiding Bishop, to take order for the consecration of a bishop whose election has been affirmed by the consent process.
NPR: The Archbishop of Canterbury said that we need to have a real thorough exploration of all of this and we need to have a wider consent within the communion in order to go ahead with either the consecration of gay bishops or blessings of gay unions. He said that does not exist in the communion right now. How do you feel about that?
KJS: The conversations been going on in The Episcopal Church for 45 years. The reality is that same-sex unions are blessed in many churches of the Anglican Communion. Not just in the United States or Canada but in the Church of England. Not officially but that is reality.
NPR: Do you think there is scriptural basis for what the convention did and what is it.
KJS: The scriptural basis for what the convention affirmed about our discernment process is that each human being is made in the image of God.
NPR: I think perhaps for some folks the distinction is not about how one is made but how one behaves. All of the arguments I’ve read center around behavior, ways of acting, is there a difference between the two?
KJS: In some circumstances yes. My experience in talking to people about this is that some people who object to the ordination of gay and lesbian people really begin with their orientation. They cannot see beyond that. Others will admit that gay and lesbian people might be created in the image of god and be fit mattered whatever their orientation. But object to the fact that some live in partnered relationships. What the church is really called to do is support all its members in living holy lives as exemplars of God’s love in the world. I think the biggest challenge we’re having right now is knowing what holy living looks like. We do not reject people who give evidence of gluttony; we do not prima facie reject people who give evidence of excessive consumerism. I think those are far more challenging issues than long-term committed relationships of a person with the same gender.
NPR: You said in a conversation with me last year that approaching people who disagree we need to be in conversation and that’s not lobbing words at each other its listening to each other. What would you say to somebody who says ‘ok this vote by the general convention is not conversation but a form of escalation’?
KJS: Legislative processes are not terrible conducive to conversation when we push something to a vote we create winners and losers. The decisions of General Convention last summer I don’t honestly believe pushed things any farther. We simply re-iterated what the standards of this church are at this time.
NPR: That is not what at least some of those who’ve been unhappy with it are saying their saying ‘this is legislation this is top down and it is going in the wrong direction.’
KJS: It’s hard to understand General Convention as being top down. It’s nearly 1,000, its more than a 1000 people gathered together representing the broad diversity of this Church, seeking discernment in the name of Christ together. It’s not an archbishop saying this is how things must be.
NPR: You’ve probably also hear people saying, ’this is going too slowly. If this is right, why not just do it the people who are gonna leave are gonna leave any why’?
KJS: Our tradition has been called the middle way for a very long time and its attention to the fact that we are called to deliberate action. Considered action. And it doesn’t happen as fast as some would like it. It happens faster than others would like.
NPR: But in the mean time you are spending more and more of your resources on legal battles. Doesn’t that take away from what the church should really be about?
KJS: The reality is that this is a portion of our mission. Preserving the assets of our church is a part of our responsibility. It’s certainly not the whole of our responsibility. There are abundant resources for the work of the gospel. Our task is to focus on the ways they can be most productive.
So, I’m assuming that all the whinging about “border crossing” is going to stop now, right?
Thanks to Robert Lundy for posting the transcript.
This interview with NPR reminds me of a famous article that Dr. Philip Turner (of ACI, etc.) wrote about ++KJS several years ago, essentially posing the question of whether she was just grossly incompetent or actually wilfully perverse.
After watching her in action for three years now, I think the correct answer is unfortunately that she’s BOTH. Both incompetent and devious at the same time. She’s an absolute disaster.
David Handy+
New convert: Now that I have joined the Episcopal church, are there any rules to live by?
PB: Not really. We make up the rules as we go along by a process we call “discernment.” For example even though the Bible teaches against homosexual behavior, we talk about it and promote homosexuals to high positions and see how it works out. Then every one sits down at a big meeting and we talk about it some more. Eventually it works out that every body gets tired and agrees. The process includes all forms of perversion.
Convert: I see. Then there really is a way to dispose of sin. You just talk your way out of it. Wow, that’s a great religion. Do you suppose we could put adultery on the agenda for the next meeting??
[blockquote]We do not reject people who give evidence of gluttony; we do not prima facie reject people who give evidence of excessive consumerism. I think those are far more challenging issues than long-term committed relationships of a person with the same gender.[/blockquote]
I wonder what the LGBT community thinks about her comparing gluttony and excessive consumerism [Oniomania ?] to their relationships. It is interesting for her to use addictions for comparison to homosexual relationships. If she is OK with same gender relationships Why did she use these examples?
“NPR: I think perhaps for some folks the distinction is not about how one is made but how one behaves. All of the arguments I’ve read center around behavior, ways of acting…”
Pretty bad when NPR gets it and she doesn’t …
Could KJS become the Presiding Bishop of TEC if she was not an advocate for the LGBT agenda? Is this posibly a case of ambition over ideology?
At 4:16, KJS said:
“It’s hard to understand General Convention as being “top-downâ€. It’s nearly a thousand…it’s more than a thousand people gathered together representing the broad diversity of this church seeking discernment in the name of Christ together. It is not an Archbishop saying ‘This is how things must be’.â€
Attorneys across the country take note: Ms. Schori just admitted TEC is NOT a hierarchical church.
“Here we are in the Episcopal Church with arms open to everyone who isn’t interested.” That is the pitiful implication of Katherine Jefforts Schori’s vision of what TEC not only is, but also should be.
I was struck by a couple of things (besides those already described — great transcript, by the way, Mr. Lundy):
I kept being amazed that I was actually listening to an NPR affiliate; the questions were really meaty and not just the lobbing of Nerf balls, such as one has become accustomed to by the media at large, and certainly public broadcasting.
KJS+ actually used the phrase “kingdom of God” near the end, as opposed to “reign of God,” etc. It really surprised me that she would use that phrase at any time (perhaps because she was in Bible-belt Georgia, not New England?)
Hursley’s wife
OK–General Convention is 1000+, we have somewhat officially 2 million people on the books, and maybe 700,000 in ASA. I’m bad at math but that would be .0005% of “members” and .0014% of ASA. She’s right TEC is not a hierarchy, its an oligarchy, or an elite-ocracy, or a tyranny of those who can show up, or a kleptocracy, but it is definitely not a hierarchy.
Further to orthodoxwill and Eastern Anglican, I will say again – and perhaps it’s always been my fault – but in something like 25 adult years of being Episcopalian, I was asked once to give input into a GC deputation, and never knew who they were, certainly not before the Anglican blogosphere took off after the Gotterdammerung of 2003.
The notion that GC is “representative” like a Congressman is representative is false. It is an unaccountable mob.
I appreciate the post, #9. Larry
KJS: “The door has been open for many years.”
Moratorium? What moratorium? Did I say moratorium? Who said moratorium?
We don’t need no stinkin’ moratorium. Mora…
The lady has been taking lessons from her mentor, Jon Bruno.
Is there gonna be gluttony hit list? You know, like the Bonnie Anderson women’s ordination compliance posse? Cause, if there is, somebody ought to give Bruno a heads up! Maybe they have gyms in his diocese?
#19 TEC as a “Kleptocracy”
One Free Pass to the Laffin’ Place for Eastern Anglican.
Yep #19 gets our vote! “Kleptocracy”!