it’s just prohibitive for any Republican presidential candidate to be an Episcopalian (my how far we’ve come from the “Republican party at prayer” days). McCain seems to have belatedly figured this out.
Politicians, especially those from the legal profession, used to proudly note their Episcopal connection. More are having second thoughts, now. Can you spell L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y?
Liberal leaders of some mainline denominations don’t seem to get it: they’ve got a serious image and credibility problem on their hands. How in God’s name are churches and clergy going to attract new members in a situation like that?
Time for you to focus on “go in peace to love and serve the Lord.”
Go back and read yesterdays gospel Luke 15:1-10 and think about these words from the Desert Fathers.
“A brother sinned and the presbyter ordered him to go out of the church. But Bessarion got up and went out with him, saying, ‘I, too, am a sinner.'”
“Joseph asked Poemen, ‘Tell me how to become a monk.’ He said, ‘If you want to find rest in this life and the next, say at every moment, “Who am I?” and judge no one.'”
“A brother said to Poemen, ‘If I see my brother sin is it really right not to tell anyone about it?’ He said, ‘When we cover our brother’s sin, God covers our sin. When we tell people about our brother’s guilt, God does the same with ours.'”
“A brother said to Poemen, ‘What am I to do, for I become weak just by sitting in my cell?’ He said, ‘Despise no one, condemn no one, revile no one: and God will give you quietness, and you will sit at peace in your cell.'”
“A hermit said, ‘Do not judge an adulterer if you are chaste or you will break the law of God just as much as he does. For he who said “Do not commit adultery” also said “Do not judge.”‘”
I agree we should not be self righteous but what do you say to the man who blames his wife for his adultery and is unrepentant and refuses to pay alimony?
Revamundo
Can you find the Desert Fathers blessing any sin?
In addition to the Desert Fathers that you quote, we do have the words of Jesus about confronting a brother about his sin. There is a right way and a wrong way to deal with sin. Dealing with it self-righteously “everyone look at John!” is wrong. “John, your sin is now blessed” is equally wrong.
Phil, let’s look at these 2 portions of Luke & John:
Luke 6: 37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.â€
John 8: 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
Just using the phrase “your sin is blessed” is judging someone. It is a hard discipline to judge not. If you think TEC is in a state of sin, you’ve made a judgement. I’m assuming that you’re thinking about blessing of gay unions. And I’m also assuming you have compassion for gay & lesbians. Can your (and mine) go from compassion to forgiveness to praying for all involved to reach God’s will for them? It is so hard for me that I find my words inadequate. What I know is that all of us need to stop judging each other and move on in love. If we must stand apart let us find a way to do it with respect for all and compassion for all and forgivness for all.
Revamundo,
This same Jesus also called the Pharisees a “brood of vipers” and “whitewashed tombs” and urged us to be wary of false prophets. He forgave sins (again, judgement!) and warned us that anyone who called his brother “raca” is in danger of “hell of fire” (Mat 5:22). This all sounds judgemental to me.
There is forgiveness for all sins – offered in through the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, Jesus. But to appropriate that forgiveness – to make it real to us, we need to repent. Just as Paul excommunicated the young man in I Cor 5 (there’s that jugementalism again) so that he would see the error of his ways and repent, so TECUSA may be excommunicated or disciplined by the Anglican Communion so that it may see the error if its ways.
As a deacon, I do not have a cure of souls. However, I do have several men in prison that I work with and part of my work there is to help them see (gradually) what parts of their lives that they have not yet put under God’s authority. So, I pray for them – that they will seek forgiveness, find God’s will and will trust that God’s will is better for them than they can desire. Likewise, I pray for the gay and lesbian men and women I know – that they will seek forgiveness, find God’s will and will trust that God’s will is better for them than their own desires.
So, the question isn’t one of “judgement” but of “discernment” where we discern God’s will and work to help others see it too.
There are a great number of Methobaptapalians these days – people who want Biblical preaching, but dread giving up the sacraments. It would be interesting to see the specific impact of GC’s 2003 and 2006 on Methodist and Baptist numbers.
RevK,
I know quite a few priests who came over from the Baptist Church who seem to be determined to make their new parish a Baptist Church with Sacraments. (replacing the choir with a praise band; etc.).
Frankly, I don’t understand them. I like the liturgy with all the trimmings. I don’t see the need for the ‘baptistification’ of the service.
Brother Jim,
I know of what you speak. I suspect, though, that there are more former Episcopalians in Baptist churches: those who have gone there for Biblical preaching and the kinds of programs that larger churches can provide. In the meantime, they ‘tolerate’ the Baptist worship service, with its lack of liturgy and sacraments, but inwardly missing ‘the liturgy with all the trimmings’ that you and I like. I guess we all make trade-offs.
Peace back at ya’,
K
Phillip, I certainly don’t claim to be all knowing about what it means when scripture seems to contradict itself. Looking at John 8: 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
Jesus had authority and power that we have just a small reflection of. (Sorry I’m in a bit of a rush and my sentence structure is awful)
Later this after noon or early evening I’ll write more. Thank you so much for this cyber-conversation.
I’m a Methopalian now myself. Went for the biblical preaching and the ministry for 20-somethings. At least it’s fairly high church for the UMC; no praise bands or happy-clappiness, and a liturgy of sorts. Can even get communion eveyr week if you know where to look (the small chapel, between services). Keeping my eyes peeled for a suitable Anglican church, though.
#17 These are not one or two obscure passages. This paradox is the heart of the Gospel.
God commands us to love him above all else and to love every one else. Humility and not judging harshly (Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37) are [i]how[/i] we are to love each other. But at the same time Jesus commands us to have standards that are so high that it is humanly impossible to comply (Matthew 5:43-48, Luke 6:32-36). This is where grace comes in and this is the point of Ro 3:22-26 and 1 John 1:5-10. Some people like to believe that this was really only Paul’s idea and therefore is not so important. But they are wrong. It is foundational. That is why you can come up with so many verses about being loving, forgiving and not judging while Philip can come up with just as many verses on judging.
The word “love” appears in the bible 544 times (NIV). If you enter the following search string “obey OR command OR commandments OR repent OR commands OR ordinance” you will find 631 hits. Jesus did not invent this idea of judgment and mercy. It is found throughout the Old Testament and is summed up nicely in Ezekiel 18. Jesus takes it to a new level in the Sermon on the Mount. He doesn’t ignore sin. He demands perfection. But since we can’t succeed on our own we must ask for forgiveness constantly. When he tells the disciples to forgive each other 70 times 7 he is merely explaining what God does for us all of the time!
Phillip…I went back to read your thoughts on judgement and discernment. I believe that this definition of discernment is what we go through in the formation process: 2. to distinguish mentally; recognize as distinct or different; discriminate: He is incapable of discerning right from wrong. Discernment is also a life-long process. I’ve also done jail & prison ministry and I agree with you whole-heartedly that “help them see (gradually) what parts of their lives that they have not yet put under God’s authority. So, I pray for them – that they will seek forgiveness, find God’s will and will trust that God’s will is better for them than they can desire.” My distinction with the rest of your statement re: gay & lesbians is they aren’t by default in a state of “sin.” Like everyone else they commit sins but sexual orientation isn’t a choice rather it is a condition and I just don’t believe that God condemns anyone for the way they are “hard-wired” at birth. My opinion is that if that were true then ADD & ADHD & blindness & deafness & all manner of conditions at birth would be condemned.
Sometimes ministry is hard because we’re leaders therefore we are judged by a different standard. And it is heartbreaking when members of our individual flocks are living in sin and we know it and they won’t confess or seek repentance and change of life. All you can do then is stand by them in love and at the same time not judging and praying for them and hoping for their repentance.
Don’t you find statements like this judgemental: Politicians, especially those from the legal profession, used to proudly note their Episcopal connection. More are having second thoughts, now. Can you spell L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y?
Liberal leaders of some mainline denominations don’t seem to get it: they’ve got a serious image and credibility problem on their hands. How in God’s name are churches and clergy going to attract new members in a situation like that? And this: Anybody who’s that confused about his identity *has* to be an Episcopalian. LOL.
Well there I am being judgemental about their judgementalism LOL. No one ever said to me that the way of the cross is easy. I will keep you and your ministry to the incarcerated in my prayers.
Okay by me. I’ve got a feeling that he’s going to have more than a little company before too much longer.
Fine by me too. Everyone who wants to go should have a place to go. Blessing to them.
Nah. Anybody who’s that confused about his identity *has* to be an Episcopalian. LOL.
it’s just prohibitive for any Republican presidential candidate to be an Episcopalian (my how far we’ve come from the “Republican party at prayer” days). McCain seems to have belatedly figured this out.
Politicians, especially those from the legal profession, used to proudly note their Episcopal connection. More are having second thoughts, now. Can you spell L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y?
Liberal leaders of some mainline denominations don’t seem to get it: they’ve got a serious image and credibility problem on their hands. How in God’s name are churches and clergy going to attract new members in a situation like that?
w.w.
Time for you to focus on “go in peace to love and serve the Lord.”
Go back and read yesterdays gospel Luke 15:1-10 and think about these words from the Desert Fathers.
“A brother sinned and the presbyter ordered him to go out of the church. But Bessarion got up and went out with him, saying, ‘I, too, am a sinner.'”
“Joseph asked Poemen, ‘Tell me how to become a monk.’ He said, ‘If you want to find rest in this life and the next, say at every moment, “Who am I?” and judge no one.'”
“A brother said to Poemen, ‘If I see my brother sin is it really right not to tell anyone about it?’ He said, ‘When we cover our brother’s sin, God covers our sin. When we tell people about our brother’s guilt, God does the same with ours.'”
“A brother said to Poemen, ‘What am I to do, for I become weak just by sitting in my cell?’ He said, ‘Despise no one, condemn no one, revile no one: and God will give you quietness, and you will sit at peace in your cell.'”
“A hermit said, ‘Do not judge an adulterer if you are chaste or you will break the law of God just as much as he does. For he who said “Do not commit adultery” also said “Do not judge.”‘”
I agree we should not be self righteous but what do you say to the man who blames his wife for his adultery and is unrepentant and refuses to pay alimony?
#7 John, now, let’s keep on topic. This post is about Senator McCain, not Senator ___________ [ [i] fill in blank [/i] ].
Revamundo
Can you find the Desert Fathers blessing any sin?
In addition to the Desert Fathers that you quote, we do have the words of Jesus about confronting a brother about his sin. There is a right way and a wrong way to deal with sin. Dealing with it self-righteously “everyone look at John!” is wrong. “John, your sin is now blessed” is equally wrong.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Since Baptists arose out of the Anglican tradition, McCain’s ontogeny is recapitulating phylogeny.
# 10: Nonsense like that just raises my Haeckels.
Phil, let’s look at these 2 portions of Luke & John:
Luke 6: 37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.â€
John 8: 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
Just using the phrase “your sin is blessed” is judging someone. It is a hard discipline to judge not. If you think TEC is in a state of sin, you’ve made a judgement. I’m assuming that you’re thinking about blessing of gay unions. And I’m also assuming you have compassion for gay & lesbians. Can your (and mine) go from compassion to forgiveness to praying for all involved to reach God’s will for them? It is so hard for me that I find my words inadequate. What I know is that all of us need to stop judging each other and move on in love. If we must stand apart let us find a way to do it with respect for all and compassion for all and forgivness for all.
Revamundo,
This same Jesus also called the Pharisees a “brood of vipers” and “whitewashed tombs” and urged us to be wary of false prophets. He forgave sins (again, judgement!) and warned us that anyone who called his brother “raca” is in danger of “hell of fire” (Mat 5:22). This all sounds judgemental to me.
There is forgiveness for all sins – offered in through the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, Jesus. But to appropriate that forgiveness – to make it real to us, we need to repent. Just as Paul excommunicated the young man in I Cor 5 (there’s that jugementalism again) so that he would see the error of his ways and repent, so TECUSA may be excommunicated or disciplined by the Anglican Communion so that it may see the error if its ways.
As a deacon, I do not have a cure of souls. However, I do have several men in prison that I work with and part of my work there is to help them see (gradually) what parts of their lives that they have not yet put under God’s authority. So, I pray for them – that they will seek forgiveness, find God’s will and will trust that God’s will is better for them than they can desire. Likewise, I pray for the gay and lesbian men and women I know – that they will seek forgiveness, find God’s will and will trust that God’s will is better for them than their own desires.
So, the question isn’t one of “judgement” but of “discernment” where we discern God’s will and work to help others see it too.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
There are a great number of Methobaptapalians these days – people who want Biblical preaching, but dread giving up the sacraments. It would be interesting to see the specific impact of GC’s 2003 and 2006 on Methodist and Baptist numbers.
RevK,
I know quite a few priests who came over from the Baptist Church who seem to be determined to make their new parish a Baptist Church with Sacraments. (replacing the choir with a praise band; etc.).
Frankly, I don’t understand them. I like the liturgy with all the trimmings. I don’t see the need for the ‘baptistification’ of the service.
Peace
Jim Elliott
Brother Jim,
I know of what you speak. I suspect, though, that there are more former Episcopalians in Baptist churches: those who have gone there for Biblical preaching and the kinds of programs that larger churches can provide. In the meantime, they ‘tolerate’ the Baptist worship service, with its lack of liturgy and sacraments, but inwardly missing ‘the liturgy with all the trimmings’ that you and I like. I guess we all make trade-offs.
Peace back at ya’,
K
Phillip, I certainly don’t claim to be all knowing about what it means when scripture seems to contradict itself. Looking at John 8: 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
Jesus had authority and power that we have just a small reflection of. (Sorry I’m in a bit of a rush and my sentence structure is awful)
Later this after noon or early evening I’ll write more. Thank you so much for this cyber-conversation.
I’m a Methopalian now myself. Went for the biblical preaching and the ministry for 20-somethings. At least it’s fairly high church for the UMC; no praise bands or happy-clappiness, and a liturgy of sorts. Can even get communion eveyr week if you know where to look (the small chapel, between services). Keeping my eyes peeled for a suitable Anglican church, though.
#17 These are not one or two obscure passages. This paradox is the heart of the Gospel.
God commands us to love him above all else and to love every one else. Humility and not judging harshly (Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37) are [i]how[/i] we are to love each other. But at the same time Jesus commands us to have standards that are so high that it is humanly impossible to comply (Matthew 5:43-48, Luke 6:32-36). This is where grace comes in and this is the point of Ro 3:22-26 and 1 John 1:5-10. Some people like to believe that this was really only Paul’s idea and therefore is not so important. But they are wrong. It is foundational. That is why you can come up with so many verses about being loving, forgiving and not judging while Philip can come up with just as many verses on judging.
The word “love” appears in the bible 544 times (NIV). If you enter the following search string “obey OR command OR commandments OR repent OR commands OR ordinance” you will find 631 hits. Jesus did not invent this idea of judgment and mercy. It is found throughout the Old Testament and is summed up nicely in Ezekiel 18. Jesus takes it to a new level in the Sermon on the Mount. He doesn’t ignore sin. He demands perfection. But since we can’t succeed on our own we must ask for forgiveness constantly. When he tells the disciples to forgive each other 70 times 7 he is merely explaining what God does for us all of the time!
Phillip…I went back to read your thoughts on judgement and discernment. I believe that this definition of discernment is what we go through in the formation process: 2. to distinguish mentally; recognize as distinct or different; discriminate: He is incapable of discerning right from wrong. Discernment is also a life-long process. I’ve also done jail & prison ministry and I agree with you whole-heartedly that “help them see (gradually) what parts of their lives that they have not yet put under God’s authority. So, I pray for them – that they will seek forgiveness, find God’s will and will trust that God’s will is better for them than they can desire.” My distinction with the rest of your statement re: gay & lesbians is they aren’t by default in a state of “sin.” Like everyone else they commit sins but sexual orientation isn’t a choice rather it is a condition and I just don’t believe that God condemns anyone for the way they are “hard-wired” at birth. My opinion is that if that were true then ADD & ADHD & blindness & deafness & all manner of conditions at birth would be condemned.
Sometimes ministry is hard because we’re leaders therefore we are judged by a different standard. And it is heartbreaking when members of our individual flocks are living in sin and we know it and they won’t confess or seek repentance and change of life. All you can do then is stand by them in love and at the same time not judging and praying for them and hoping for their repentance.
Don’t you find statements like this judgemental:
Politicians, especially those from the legal profession, used to proudly note their Episcopal connection. More are having second thoughts, now. Can you spell L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y?
Liberal leaders of some mainline denominations don’t seem to get it: they’ve got a serious image and credibility problem on their hands. How in God’s name are churches and clergy going to attract new members in a situation like that? And this: Anybody who’s that confused about his identity *has* to be an Episcopalian. LOL.
Well there I am being judgemental about their judgementalism LOL. No one ever said to me that the way of the cross is easy. I will keep you and your ministry to the incarcerated in my prayers.