Anglican churches in Egypt have voiced their offence over recent statements by Coptic Pope Shenouda III, who, in his most recent sermon, declared that Anglicans did not adhere to Biblical teachings.
Anglican churches in Egypt have voiced their offence over recent statements by Coptic Pope Shenouda III, who, in his most recent sermon, declared that Anglicans did not adhere to Biblical teachings.
Tsk, tsk, tsk … you lie down with EcUSA/TEc and you get up with fleas, and then you complain about someone pointing out the fleas?!
The simple reality is that the central issue of the importance of the Bible to Anglicanism is over-ridden by the actions of EcUSA/TEc and ACCanada and their ilk.
This is what the ABC has encouraged and permitted by his inactions on EcUSA/TEc and ACCanada. This is the result of the actual beliefs promulgated by the PB in her letter yesterday and the publicity bishop Andrus’ remarks the day earlier. This is the reality that the world sees in the actions of the EcUSA/TEc HOB and miscreants at the General Convention Church. I fear it is too late for the ecumenical relations the ABC alleges to care about. And retaining such in the alleged Anglican Communion in any form or fashion is merely to worship mammon over the clear injunctions of Scripture in John’s letters, Peter’s, and Jude’s. But, hey, who cares? (Well, beside the Orthodox, the Copts, the Romans, and the vast majority of Anglicans world-wide, the Protestants and the Pentecostals, I mean.)
His Holiness is one of the living Patriarchs. ABp Rowan WIlliams and Ms. Schori are not patriarchs. (I think he knows that, and it would seem that she believes that she is.)
The Pope has been an outspoken critic of Progressive Theology, and has spoken in the harshest terms about homosexual practice. If the Anglican Church in Egypt is willing to denounce progressive thought, and all that goes with it, then fine.
We are the only church claiming to be Trinitarian that in the last 1000 years has had one of its top-level leaders (primates) deny the resurrection and the divinity of Christ.
He is correct about us in our practice. We do well to realize this and to repent corporately.
I would like to know more about this. The Anglican church in Egypt has certainly distanced itself from TEC. Their Primate is Archbishop Mouneer Anis, who repeatedly has been a stalwart defender of orthodoxy, and who recently made clear his views on the current state of affairs in the Anglican communion not only by his resignation from the Standing Committee, but by the strong statement he made when he resigned. Most recently, Archbishop Mouneer was present at the recent Global South meeting that, again, distanced itself form TEC.
Moreover, Egypt is the home of the Anglican Alexandria School of Theology, with which Trinity School for Ministry, has good relations. Mouneer is a regular visitor here, and his assistant is one of our graduates. Since I have taught at Trinity we have had several Egyptian students (including Mouneer’s son) study here, and return to teach there.
Pope Shenouda has in the past been friendly to both Archbishop Mouneer as well as the Alexandria School of Theology. There has to be more to this story than is evident from this short article.
By the way, I hope that commenters here who try to associate the Anglican Church in Egypt with the theological departures from orthodoxy in the current leadership of TEC are simply showing ignorance of the actual situation in Egypt. If they make these statements in full awareness of the courageous stances Archbishop Mouneer has taken, as well as the difficult situation all Christians (Copts, Anglicans and others) face in Egypt, they not only slander, but cast stones form the relative safety of a country where the worst persecution we suffer is the occasional sneer in a news story or blog comment.
#4 Thank you for the overview. I just went to their website and am impressed: http://www.ast-eg.org. And like you am curious what the backdrop of this story might be.
I would like to know more about what HH said in full, and in its proper context. But, at the same time I would assert that between Archb. Mouneer and his band of Anglicans in Egypt (however admirable people they may be) and the Copts, Pope Shenouda and the Coptic Church are incontestably the greater and more authentic of the two. The Anglican church in Egypt is merely the product of the British colonial presence there while the Coptic Church is the actual native Christian Church in Egypt from the first days of Christianity.
[Edited by Elf]
Dr. Witt (#4 & 5),
Thanks for the helpful background. I’m glad to hear about the close ties between the Anglican school in Alexandria and TSM. May that link grow ever stronger! I too suspect that this extremely brief article isn’t telling the whole story. ++Mouneer Anis is a brave champion of the faith, like the immortal Athanasius, and like Pope Shenouda III himself.
A Senior Priest (#7),
You’re welcome to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with your fervent call for the Egyptian Anglicans to convert en masse to the Coptic Church. And I think your disparaging slam on ++Anis is wrong and unjustified. After all, the man gave up being a medical doctor to serve Christ and His church as a priest and then a bishop, a ministry he has carried out with great distinction and faithfulness.
Let’s not forget that the Egyptian Coptic Church still disavows the Council of Chalcedon (AD 451) and is still technically guilty of the Monophysite heresy. I’m well aware that many historians would say that the theological disagreements between Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Christians are more semantic than real, or more based more on ancient politics than doctrine, but I’d still have to say there is value in having a native witness to Chalcedonain orthodoxy in Egypt. And thankfully, Anglicanism in Egypt is no longer just a matter of providing chapels for British expatriates; it’s become a truly indigenous church. Katherine could testify to that since she has lived there (if she or someone else like her sees this thread and chooses to chime in).
But I would agree that the Coptic Church is a noble and worthy one that needs all the support and encouragement it can get. My understanding is that Coptic Christians still make up nearly 10% of the population, the highest proportion of Christians by far in any Arab country except for Lebanon. And that’s despite centuries of often brutal persecution. God bless them.
David Handy+
Dr Witt, I am casting no sneers at the Good Bishop Mouneer Anis nor the work there. I was pointing out the consequences of the association of the EcUSA/TEc with the Anglican Communion which has irrevocably tainted the AC. The failure of separation is historically due to the ABC, which you are quite well aware. Alas, how many have tried to make the EcUSA/TEc understand that it is in error and that with world-wide consequences.
The alleged two-tier solution is merely more of the same.
Why the ABC chooses over and over and over again to inflict the EcUSA/TEc on the Communion in the light of this ecumenical remark which has been repeated more than once is alleged to be financial by many. The famous follow the money remarks so egregiously and erroneously alleged by the stalwarts of the New Thang Gozpel here in the USA are to be taken seriously, though not quite in the original setting. Rowan has sold the credibility of the AC for a mess. I’m not sure he got porridge. A genuinely Screwtapian maneuver.
Re #s 4-5
William,
The Copts adhere to the immemorial teaching of the Church that you are who you are in communion with. TEC and the ACC are both part of the Anglican communion. The CofE with its own insane mad rush into heresy is also obviously part of the communion. Seen in this manner Pope +Shenouda III is absolutely correct.
From an (Oriental) Orthodox perspective the Anglican Communion is profoundly heretical.
RE # 8
Rev. Handy
You are correct in your observation. The Copts are one of the non-Chalcedonian churches. But then again how many members of TEO’s House of Bishops would today vote to affirm the Seven OEcumenical Councils in their fullness? If there were more than one or two I would be very surprised. To be honest I can’t think of any that I would call a safe “AYE” vote on that. In the entire of the Anglican Communion I doubt that more than 10% of the bishops could do so.
[Edited by Elf]
Actually, since the Episcopal church is already Anathema to so many, why not just eliminate the filioque clause from the prayer book, or make it optional outright and see who cares.
Re # 12
John
Isn’t that kind of silly. I mean the Creed is pretty much optional already. Forget having to accept the whole thing, is there even a single line in it that must be accepted as a condition for receiving communion in TEO? Dropping the Filioque is a bit pointless when you consider that you have “bishops” who have already rejected pretty much everything after the words “I believe…”
John Wilkins, no need to do that. All you really have to do is cross your eyes, you need not use fingers, when you come to a part of the creed you don’t believe in. Or have you missed more than one Easter sermon on the matter of the Resurrection? I have yet to hear a sermon on the issue of the double versus single procession of the Spirit in an Episcopal church or a discussion in a 3 year Theological Certificate program in the Diocese of Missouri. I rather doubt there are any capable, but that is purely my opinion. As for the HOB, dollars to donuts you can’t get five who won’t say “Huh?”
Or you could consult the Dean of the Good Samaritan School of Theology, if you can get her away from her apple pie and flag waving for being ‘tsk, tsk’d’ by the ABC for her and the HOB and the GC heretical actions and gnosticisms? I’ll wager it won’t be “huh?” but some Spongian rhapsody in a screechy coloured vestment and matching shoes.
Unfortunately, we lack the context in which to properly understand precisely what Pope Shenouda said and why he chose this moment to say whatever he did say.
(I wonder if Anglicans and other Protestant groups have been proselytizing the Oriental Orthodox?)
But surely, from an Oriental Orthodox point of view, Anglicans indeed are heretical on several key points–and I’m not talking about sexual morality. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone, least of all the Protestant Churches in Egypt.
Or the Church of Rome, right?
Hmm, who does this Shenouda guy think he is – the Pope?
[blockquote]Unfortunately, we lack the context in which to properly understand precisely what Pope Shenouda said and why he chose this moment to say whatever he did say.[/blockquote]
This is precisely correct. We do not know what Pope Shenouda said. We do not know the context in which he said it. We do not know the issue he was addressing.
What we do know, based on statements I myself have heard directly from Archbishop Mouneer and from Trinity faculty who have visited Egypt in the last few years and met Pope Shenouda personally, and from a previous visit by Pope Shenouda to Ambridge, PA to dedicate the Coptic church just a few blocks from the Trinity School for Ministry only a few years ago, is that, up till now, relations between Pope Shenouda and the Anglican Church of Egypt, have been positive.
Anything beyond that is speculation. If people want to claim that Archbishop Mouneer and Egyptian Anglicans are somehow tainted because he (and the Global South Primates) who recently (once again) repudiated TEC, still nonetheless have TEC cooties because they have some kind of relationship to TEC merely by being Anglicans, they may do so. Given the rude treatment that Archbishop Mouneer received at the HOB in New Orleans, and given his forceful renunciation from the JSC just a few weeks ago, this is a bit rich. But, as the young folks say, “whatever.”
But we still do not know what Pope Shenouda said or why he said it.
Interesting conversation, this. dwstroudmd, I am sorry you perceived a sneer at Archbishop Mouneer when I pointed out the colonial origins of the Anglican community in Egypt, which is precisely the same origin of all the Anglican communities in the Middle East. That was not the case. Since there are probably 2000 Coptic Christians to every 1 native Egyptian Anglican, I sincerely doubt that Pope Shenouda feels terribly threatened by them. However, I know an Anglican shopkeeper there and he told me that some of the “Islamic” TV news stations have been carrying footage of the American gay and lesbian bishops as an example of what all Anglicans are “really” about. AND, the TV commentator says breathlessly about Gene Robinson and his significant other, “They live in their house with two DOGS”. No matter how squeaky clean the Anglican Diocese of Egypt tries to appear, the mud does stick, alas.
A Senior Priest, I did not detect a sneer. I thought I was being accused of making such. Anglicans in Egypt and around the globe do, in fact, have EcUSA/TEc “cooties” for precisely the reasons you indicate.
But God forbid that the ABC should move to disassociate that cootie infested Province and its similarly infested cousins from Anglicanism as is most justly due. Better that Anglicans in Africa and elsewhere suffer for misperception than that the EcUSA/TEc have its ability to pass on cooties interfered with.
Despite our lack of context, it seems clear that the tolerated, nay, encouragement of, EcUSA/TEc in its jettisoning of Christian Tradition and the complicity of the CoE make a pretty clear case for the remark. This doesn’t take too much contextualization, IMHO, think WO, VGR, MG, and the PB for starters. Toss in a little Spong and Andrus, mix thoroughly with the HOB and voila’!
Bishop Mouneer has a very positive relationship with Pope Shenouda. Pope Shenouda understands the divisions within the Anglican Communion, and he knows where Bishop Mouneer stands. These two godly men are in close and frequent contact. They hold each other in the highest esteem. Unless you see Bishop Mouneer quoted in an article like this, published in major non-religious Egyptian newspaper, don’t get too excited. What the reporter understands of the Pope’s comments and the situation in the Anglican Communion is probably very limited. Think about what the average Western journalist knows about issues in the Anglican Communion and then move that into a society which is 90% Muslim. This is a non-story if there ever was one!
Ralph (#2)
I think most people know that the Bishop of Rome, alongside all the other top bishops in Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East, have adopted the title “patriarch”. However, in the case of the Bishop of Rome, the Vatican removed the title “Patriarch of All the West” in 2006.
You say “ABp Rowan WIlliams and Ms. Schori are not patriarchs”. So what? It’s just a moniker, like “banana” or “gummy bear”. Or are you asserting something special about it?
As long as TEC is part of the Anglican Communion, Pope Shenouda III’s comments are correct. Rowan Williams, take heed!