Is this the same Christ Church that is the 274-year-old “Mother Church of Georgia” and occupies one of Savannah’s most prime, valuable pieces of real estate, directly facing Johnson Square? ( The same square that ironically was the site on Sept. 15 of the 8th annual Savannah Gay Pride Festival.)
Is this the same church proudly named after Jesus Christ, supposedly to honor and glorify the founder of Christianity by exemplifying, illustrating and following his teachings?
Are these “Christians” angry and upset enough to break away because their church is “too liberal” and has been expanding love, inclusion and acceptance to unworthy people?
Hmm…
Somehow, something seems very wrong, very twisted and distorted with this scenario. Indeed, it seems utterly preposterous.
It seems only to painfully prove, once again, that some, if not most, organized religions are confused, fearful and dysfunctional. Their ideas and preachings about God and Jesus are erroneous.
They remain blind to this fact, and see only what they want to see.
They do not see the cruelty, fighting and killing going on everywhere in God’s name. They are not seeing the separation, the divisions, oppression, fear and dysfunction around us.
Worse, some of them are seeing it and playing into it, using it as a means of controlling people.
Jesus Christ is easily the most important, and most misunderstood, figure to appear in the history of mankind. He was a rebel, a liberal street activist and a revolutionary who turned the world upside down with this profoundly simple teachings of truth.
Hey, Jesus is just like me! Who’d a guessed?
I also can’t resist mentioning this:
[Jesus] states, “The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”
Uh, that was St. Paul.
I’m pondering this writing and comparing its tenets with that of the 1890s Anarchist’s tenets and trying to find a difference. Haven’t found one yet….
That’s right, Paul was the libertarian; Jesus was the one with the repressive sexual ethic (Matt 5:27-32; 19:3-12). Oh, wait, that would kind of ruin the point, wouldn’t it?
“It seems only to painfully prove,…Their ideas and preachings about God and Jesus are erroneous.” Thank God we have Kevin Clark to set us straight, no need for the Holy Spirit!!
And since we don’t really care about what Paul said . . . let’s get back to the law, shall we? You know . . . [i]Jesus’s[/i] words . . .
; > )
“It seems only to painfully prove, once again, that some, if not most, organized religions are confused, fearful and dysfunctional”
Whenever you hear the term “organized religion,” be prepared for an anti-Christian rant.
_ _ _ _ _
“They do not see the cruelty, fighting and killing going on everywhere in God’s name”
These days Christians are overwhelmingly on the receiving end of religiously motivated killing. And nationalism and totalitarian political ideology account for most of the wars and mass killings of the past century.
Wow, what a challenging editorial! So full of new and interesting ideas that we pea-brained Christians have never considered!
This Clark guy would barely be suitable to be a greeter at Wal-Mart, much less a journalist.
“The plain, simple fact is that Jesus taught no theology. His teaching is wholly spiritual and metaphysical.”
Spiritual and metephysical teaching that wasn’t theological….Is this guy a complete idiot? With ignorance and general stupidity this enormous I wonder how he manages to explain to us the real deal on one he describes as the “most misunderstood, figure to appear in the history of mankind.”
He must be an idiot savant.
Metaphysical? [i]Metaphysical??!?[/i]
I think there are a lot more people who say metaphysical than know what it means.
[i] Let’s not get too sarcastic, please. [/i]
-Elf Lady
#9: I’m missing the ‘savant’ part.
It would be good to post Fr. Marc Robertson’s response.
Elves, exactly how sarcastic is appropriate? And what is the general purpose of posting such stories that are so devoid of serious intellectual argument that their one clear function is to illustrate the author’s overwhelming ignorance and lack of thought if not to provoke scorn.
You present us with a plate of steaming dog crap and then chide us for making faces?
How dishonest ot the Sanannah paper and Mr. Clark. Kevin Clark is the Savannah chapter president of Georgia Equity – a Gay “Rights” oganization.
link
Christopher: One person’s dog droppings are another person’s tannery or compost pile. Not that the thought provides a lot of comfort.
[i] Once the sarcasm starts, it becomes a contest to see who can be the wittiest. And that
means long hours at the computer for the elves reading every single comment. [/i]
I don’t know or have read anything about Kevin Clark’s reasons for such a vituperative outburst. This was obviously written for effect and not truth.
The three worst mass murderers of all time were Hitler, Stalin, and Mao; one a National Socialist, the other two Communists. All three actively exterminated Christians, Muslims, and those of other faiths.
“Worse, some of them are seeing it and playing into it, using it as a means of controlling people.â€
This sounds more like the TEC than those whose faith is shown in Christ Church leaving the TEC and joining others who also hold to the faith of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not aberrations there of.
My Goodness! What a strange rant for a journalist these sad days.
I wrote this off line and didn’t see #15 which answers too many of the questions most of us are asking, or commenting about.
R.S.Bunker, thanks for making all clear.
Irenaeus writes:
[quote]”It seems only to painfully prove, once again, that some, if not most, organized religions are confused, fearful and dysfunctionalâ€
Whenever you hear the term “organized religion,†be prepared for an anti-Christian rant.[/quote]
Aw. come on. Disorganized religion is the real deal.
However, I suspect that disorganized religion would be even more confused and dysfunctional if not fearful. Terriful would be more like it.
Kevin Clark is a Savannah writer.
[i] Slightly edited by elf. [/i]
This is drivel and without a drop of merit. The entries make this clear. What is the purpose of posting it. I might add that this is so lacking in merit that one would assume that Kendall would close the comments. We also note that he had closed the comments on some entries that really deserve our attention. This does not. I might add incidentally, since no one else has said it, that this is what bigotry looks like, in this case liberal bigotry.
LM
Sorry, Elves, but this is the sort of thing mockery was made for.
Who wants to put wagers on Mr. Clark’s enthusiasm for the rest of Paul’s writings? Say, Romans 1?
Projection.
Dearest Elves: I support Kendall’s decision to post this article. It’s so bad that it’s educational. Hence my observation that dog droppings, unpleasant as they may be, have their uses. They were long a key element of turning hides into leather.
[i] No problem. We hope you understand our point of view. [/i]
As a ready-made swipe, “organized religion” seems to draw an unfavorable comparison between conventional religious organizations—particularly Christian churches—and some ideal based on Thoreau, St. Francis, or the early Quakers. The swipe implies, among other things, that the target church (or its leaders) essentially makes religion into a for-profit business.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
“Kevin Clark is the Savannah chapter president of Georgia Equality”
That should have been disclosed. Even articles in the free weekly fish-wrapper should disclose their authors’ institutional interests. All the more so articles in an established newspaper.
They were long a key element of turning hides into leather.
I shudder to think..would that leather be included to make wineskins?
[i] Slightly edited. [/i]
Suepie, where is Father Robertson’s response? There is a letter to the editor here:
http://savannahnow.com/node/375011
“There never was any decree of any kind from him to set up any form of ecclesiasticism, hierarchy, organized religion or ritual of worship”
Except the Apostles, his Church, and the Sacraments. Unfortunately I don’t only see liberals making these kinds of assertions. As heirs to the radical reformation like the Quakers, there are plenty in emerging churches and the house church movement who would go down the “spiritual but not religious” route. Perhaps liberalism is merely the logical result of the radical reformation.
Beg pardon, Irenaeus, but this is not worth posting precisely because there is no substance to which rational comment can be made. This is different from the VGR postings that he closed. Look at the comments this “article” has drawn. Some rather funny, to be sure, but they have little or nothing substantive to say. How could they? The writer is a fool. It should not be the case that “A fool and his folly are soon posted.”
AS I said before, this is so obviously the case, why would Kendall not close the comments, at the very least. Or if he has not used that gambit here, why would he use it at all. I am astonished that so few object to Kendall’s practice of posting to inflame, which is precisely what closing the comments does. Larry
http://savannahnow.com/node/373632
Here is Fr. Marc Robertson’s response:
http://savannahnow.com/node/373632
[i]Perhaps liberalism is merely the logical result of the radical reformation. [/i]
It’s one of the results. The Anabaptists – Mennonites, Hutterites, Amish, and so on – are another result. I don’t have time to research it right now, but if memory serves, the Anabaptists lead down to the various revival movements of the 18th and 19th centuries, and then into 20th century Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism.
I’m not getting this quite right, but the principle is that protestantism, divides out among the mainline groups (Anglican, Lutheran, and Reformed/Presbyterian), but at the radical fringes split out into liberal and conservative . The interesting thing is that the mainline groups are now splintering in a similar way, with the most vitality evident in the conservative groups. In the case of TEC, the liberal group has attached itself to (and controls) the middle. The question is whether the minimal vitality that is active in liberal camps is enough to overcome the fact that the middle is just dying. Actually, the question is just rhetorical.
“…than know what it means.”
[i] Let’s not get too sarcastic, please.[/i]
Madam Elf, this was not sarcasm. Anyone who uses the word “metaphysical” the way Mr. Clark does is using it badly, just as people beat sometimes beat “uncertainty” to what is for physicists an unrecognizable pulp.
It is not discourtesy in argument to make note of your opponent’s apparent ignorance of the meaning of his own words.
Larry, I actually appreciate Dr. Harmon closing to comments the posts he closes to comments. The posts are always of some interest, but the comments that would be likely to ensue wouldn’t show any of us in our best light, I think. Knight4God makes a good point that this sort of attitude -spirituality without religion – is in the air right now, not just a revisionist thing.
Suepie, thanks for the link – good response.
Marcus Robertson… Rector, pastor and now (evidently), Judo-ka.
In judo, the ancient martial art derived and developed in the 19th century by Professor Jigoro Kano from the unweaponed Samurai code of Ju Jitsu, one overarching principle is to ‘give way’ to agression. Side step and let all of that massive uncontrolled force and blow by you, (but keep a hand on your opponent’s lapel so as to control him), and use his force at exactly the correct moment to overturn him, up-end him with minimal effort and thereby bring him into submission on the mat. I’ve played and practiced judo, and trust me this principle almost never fails to work. It’s also a beautiful thing to watch. This is what Rector Marcus Robertson has done linguistically to Mr. Clark’s vituperative diatribes against Christianity in general and Christ Church, Savannah in particular, in the above article and the very answer I’ve been sifting through 31 responses for. Well done, Sensai.
“I am astonished that so few object to Kendall’s practice of posting to inflame, which is precisely what closing the comments does”
Larry [#29]: I think you make reasonable points about this article, even though I reach a different bottom-line conclusion about posting it.
But you err in characterizing Kendall as “posting to inflame.” The articles on which Kendall tends to close comments often involve (1) nonintellectual, gay-related topics (e.g., the MCC’s troubles) or (2) anything related to Paul Zahl.
T19 and Stand Firm commenters have too often disgraced themselves in writing of Paul Zahl. Here is a Christian thinker whose scholarship and TESM leadership should command our respect. Yet he draws venom from a small, strident group of Reformation-hating High Church snobs and Ultramontane polemicists. You’d think Zahl were Ecclesiastical Enemy #1. But if Kendall thinks an article by or about Zahl is significant, I’d like to read it, with or without a chance to comment.
The largest category of closed-comment stories might, as I recall them, be called “Gay Lite”: e.g., a human-interest story or the latest misadventures of VGR. I believe Kendall can reasonably decide that these stories are worth knowing about but will draw so many reflexively and intemperately negative comments that allowing comments will do more harm than good—at least from the standpoint of his goals as blog host (e.g., promoting charity and civility towards opponents). The greater the intellectual content or official significance of gay-related stories, the more Kendall tends to allow comments.
What Irenaeus said…
I have also noticed that the number of ‘comment closed’ posts has increased recently. Most of them have one name in the title – Gene Robinson.
I can fully understand Kendall’s actions. Some of the comments as September 30th or the HOB New Orleans Meeting approached and went got a bit hysterical, but it mostly comes down to this: VGR has become a kind of lightning rod on this site for us to channel our anger/fear/you name it. I have seen comments ranging from good solid disagreement to downright gutter stuff. I asked elf-girl to shut one thread down after only 20 posts. Another thread had language that made my jaw drop in disgust. Brothers and sisters, this should not be.
Until we can all control ourselves, I think Kendall is doing the right thing.
“Until we can all control ourselves, I think Kendall is doing the right thing.”
Perhaps he should consider closing comments altogether. Seriously.
I think Kendall is very fair and shows great discernment in how and when he closes coments. The elves (atip of the hat) also do a lot to moderate discussion. I think Kevin Clark wrtote his piece with a lot of passion and not quite as much thought. Marcus Robertson, wrote a great response. I think Kevin’s article demonstrates that both sides of the issue can “lose it” when things don’t quite go thier way.
AS to closing the comments altogether, such a step would make a blog entirely pointless.
Irenaeus, who’s Zahl? I never heard of him (which is not surprising). As to the case you and others make, then the issue is, why leave THIS entry open to comment, for this is wholly without spiritual or intellectual merit. It IS inflammatory because that is the writer’s intention. And read the comments. They are acrid, fire without illumination. The purpose of a blog is to open up avenues of discussion that otherwise are closed to most of us; the blog is an agora. The purpose of the elves is police the open square so that is truly stays open. On the whole, they do the very job they are supposed to do, although when they sleep and eat, I cannot imagine.
So I say: Let the comments remain open, leave the policing to the elves, and if the elves see a failure to behave, give them the power of the axe. Off with his head, say the elves, and it is done. Thud. The blog is an exercise in what most Americans no longer grasp, namely, self discipline. I would argue that it is precisely this that elvishness forces us to practice, a lesson we all need to learn. Closing the comments refuses to allow us to practice and the elves to police this most important facet of all good character because closing such entries is exactly where the practice is most essential. The blog world is virtually without rules, the very model of a modern major liberal. Here there are rules, not of civility as politeness has come to be called, but of self-discipline and self-restraint. AS so many of the best minds have observed – and I think of Bacon and James – one acquires virtues by exercising them; one can become brave by acting bravely. I submit to you, this is the proper stance for Kendall to take. And if he will take it, and the elves institutiionalize it, then we will demand this of others as we enforce it on ourselves. Larry
Kendall can do whatever he wants. It’s his blog.
This item is worth posting, and commenting, because it represents several things about the current problems. It’s a local response to the Christ Church action. As is frequently the case, the press neglected to present the information about the writer which would have put his piece in context. And while much of his opinion is over the top, it reflects what a large number of critics of the conservatives say — that we misunderstand and misrepresent Jesus. The low level of scriptural knowledge which allows this point of view is frequently seen among non-clerical reappraisers, and sometimes among clergy.
The MSM just can’t help themselves example no. 236,548,795,485,434,986. Of course this man is a writer, but he is much more than that. Half truths lead only bad places (like declining circulation)…….
There is a reason this article matters enough to post.
It reveals how unnecessary it is to make any sense in order to win the battle. In the end, it will be the sheer stupidity — theologically and biblically — that will kill our Church.
Politics is really the practice of impatience — impatience with thought, reason and — in the case of the Church — prayer.
Dear Saints:
Let me encourage us all (myself included) to distinguish between ridicule and refutation. When we are ridiculed, it is not a refutatioin of the substance of the argument we present. When we are tempted to ridicule another, it is not a refutation of their argument, either. Kevin’s comments, while perhaps lacking theological sophistication, represent a perspective in our various communities that needs to be addressed. In all of the turmoil and chaos, may God keep us as “witnesses”, and may we clearly and compassionately point to the truth, refuting false perspectives with love and stating with clarity the truth as it is found in Jesus Christ. Just as we wish not to be dismissed by simple labels such as “fundamentalist” or “literalist”, so let us not dismiss others, but find a way (by God’s grace) to use such exchanges as opportunities for a vibrant and strong witness to the Gospel.
Many thanks to all of you who have supported Christ Church by your love and prayers. As Churchill once said in 1942, “This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.” May we be faithful to the end, for Jesus’ sake. — Marc Robertson
Dear friends,
I also agree that Rev. Marc Robertson’s response (see #31) is excellent. I am very impressed. Incidentally, this also shows why expurgating “miserable offenders” from the ’79 prayer book was a mistake. Kudos to CC Savannah for restoring it in their worship.
This proves nothing about “MSM” [#43], which underscores how that term can become an ideological substitute for thinking. Clark carries on like a talk-show host or an ideological blogger without following the standard “MSM” practice of disclosing an institutional affiliation readers would find relevant in assessing his views.
“AS to closing the comments altogether, such a step would make a blog entirely pointless.”
How so? It could still continue on as an sort of Anglican Drudge Report. One doesn’t need to comment in order to be well informed, especially given the problems with blogs that you described.
But, this is off topic.
Fr. Eric Dudley, Rector of St. Peter’s Anglican Church, Tallahassee, FL, refutes the “metaphysical” mumbo-jumbo as espoused by Kevin Clark. Here is his sermon from this past Sunday. Listen particularly to 23:25 – 26:00.
[url=http://www.saint-peters.net/files/8/File/sermons/2007/SPAC_10_14_07.mp3]http://www.saint-peters.net/files/8/File/sermons/2007/SPAC_10_14_07.mp3[/url]
Let’s see– Jesus supposedly said nothing directly about pedophilia, bestiality, arson, drug abuse,embezzlement, bank hold-ups, train robberies, terrorism–so we have no right to extrapolate from basic Christian moral principles about whether these activities are good or bad.
That seems to be a basic–and erroneous– premise of many defenders of Gay practices.
Didn’t that Jesus guy say something about building His Church on some rock or other? Or a guy? Or a guy on a rock? That seems just a small nod to theology and Church, doesn’t it? I’m thinking yes.
It is a real pity that love of self can pervade a human soul so much that their entire point of view becomes merely their own perceptions of the world, written by them, muttered in the dark of night by them, and clung to, against all of mankind’s achievement and understanding, by them.
And never forget, Faith is a Weapon, and weapons can be used for good or evil. It is the wielder’s responsibility to use his own powers for good. A good not of his own definition.
Not so complicated, really it isn’t…
KTF!….mrb
#42 says what has been said here often, this this is Kendall’s blog and that he can do whatever he wants. My response is that he ought not to do whatever he wants, for if he does, it means that a blog has no rules, no standards whatsoever; all that matters will be the blog owner’s personal preferences. Isn’t this institutionalized solipsism that which we all wish to fight? Haven’t you already had too much of this all-Ameroican self-centeredness? Do you really want to argue that the only standard is no standard, for this is what you are suggesting when you say that Kendall can do whatever he wants? I say it again, it must NOT be that way, for a blog should stand for and integrate integrity and self-discipline into responsible intercommunication. And this is precisely what the elves are for. Larry
POST#51 laments ‘self love can so prevade a human soul that their entire point of view become merely their own perceptions, witten by them’
C.S. Lewis put it thus: “That watchful, sleepless self-ward concentration, which is the mark of Hell”. (screwtape)
All too often I’ve seen it in myself.
The principle stands. You become like what you worship. (now there’s a sobering thought)
But I thought that Robertson’s reflection in his comments on the article above that these perceptions of Mr. Clark’s are perspectives that are present in all of our communities and need to be adressed. We need to be prepared to address them, however benighted and palsied they are. They still need an answer. (even if it seems the questions and accusations are designed only for Christian baiting)
Chuck Colson wrote 30 years ago of America culturally being in a ‘post-christian era’. What time is it now? My wife and some friends once did a little impromptu child evangelism at our apartment complex in Decatur, Ga. A little guy about 6 years old asked when he heard a bible story…” Jeeeesus? Who’s she??”
That kid’s evidently now all grown up holds the opinion that Jesus was a social activist, revolutionary, and gay rights advocate. Change the headgear, and Jesus is Che`.