A three-session course titled “They Followed a Star: Astrology and Christianity as Allies on the Journey” is being taught at St. Andrew’s Church in Seattle this month. The first session is scheduled to be held tonight.
The course is being taught by Dan Keusal, a licensed counselor and astrologer in private practice in Seattle. Mr. Keusal holds a degree in theology from the University of Notre Dame and worked for years as a parish and campus minister.
In a brief description of the course located on an internet website he maintains, Mr. Keusal describes his workshop as a way to “look at how astrology can support and deepen our journeys as men and women of faith.” The course was mentioned in the December issue of Episcopal Voice, the newspaper of the Diocese of Olympia and in the calendar section of the diocesan website. The course is also listed on the parish website.
Why not?
I put the Myers-Briggs in the same category as Astrology (In fact my most common reference is “Psychological astrology”), and it’s used in many churches.
After all, what’s the difference between saying “I’m a leo” and “I’m an INJ”?
Would that be the journey to hell?
I remember one show on PBS that I particularly enjoyed. The Amazing Randi had a class of college students fill out the necessary information for an astrological “reading.” He then came back and handed the students their results. When the students were asked if the results described them well or very well, a very high percentage agreed that the results did. The then handed the “reading” to the next person and they all found out that they got the same reading.
Astrology and all such pursuits are either bogus or demonic and, as such, should not be followed.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
I don’t see how Myers-Briggs and astrology are in the same category. Myers-Briggs is descriptive, not predictive, and measures psychological preferences. It’s controversial, yes, but saying “Given the choice, I’m naturally more introverted” isn’t the same thing as saying, “Given the place of the constellation Aries in the sky at the time of my birth, I’m naturally more introverted.” In other words, there is no causal relationship in Myers-Briggs, like there is in classical astrology.
He has a degree in theology from Notre Dame? What are they teaching up there these days?
5, Don’t ask.
How very unfortunate this is being offered under the guise of being spiritually helpful. ‘Scuse my un-PC attitude, but this is nothing less than the devil’s workshop. Astrology feeds off of anxiety about one’s future and seems to offer a way of getting control over the same. The only problem is that it is pure illusion. And, karma? Give me a break! Who needs grace or the blood of Jesus when we can save ourselves?
I’m looking forward to the ABC’s secret communion for Astrologers….
BTW, Katherine in #5 – I understand from friends that the question should be “What [b]were[/b] they teaching up there…” In recent years, under Father Malloy and Father Jenkins, it has returned to its Catholic roots (of course the football team has suffered).
ECUSoids don’t like to be told their organization is “pagan,” but they would have a hard time answering for this, if it really bothered them enough to do so. (As we’ve seen with Spong, Pike, Schori, Chane, etc., it doesn’t.)
Mazel tov!
Sigh. I was raised there. I actually learned the Christian faith there.
A long, long time ago the low church priest at the place had a full set of Nicene & Ante-nicene Fathers. Naturally, he wouldn’t be ordained nowadays. Good place to be *from*, the Episcopal Church…
“..it started with reading tea-leaves said Father Setsquare, necromancer-in-residence at Saint Andrews, but the defining moment was exploring into the spirituality of Tarot reading.”
“Miss Solitaire explained it all to me in her educational program, live and let die,” he continued from inside the Beijing circle he had built in his comfortable office…
If TEC is mainstream Protestant, than the Unitarians, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses can be classified as mainstream Protestants denominations.
If you are concerned about his you can e-mail the Bishop of the Diocese of Olympia, Greg Rickel at grickel@ecww.org
I believe it is appropo to qoute “..Wide is the road that leadeth to destruction..” and “..The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God…”
#8
“In recent years, under Father Malloy and Father Jenkins, it has returned to its Catholic roots (of course the football team has suffered).”
William, would that be because they no longer have astrologers to provide information on which days would be propitious days to practice … or even help the manager of the team base their game schedule around the stars.
Well, we’ve had a Muslim priest, a Druid priest, why not an official church astrologer. Maybe we can add a temple to Zeus and reinstitute cult prostitution. If we all try hard I am sure we can learn to live into it. We need to be inclusive don’t you know.
One difference between “I’m a Leo” and “I’m an INTJ” is that the latter is based on measuring traits more closely related to character than “which constellation near the ecliptic was hardest to see when I was born because the Sun was in the way.”
Although I could very well be mistaken, I seem to recall that Myers-Briggs/Kiersey-Bates are derivative of the thinking of Jung’s temperaments, which itself is derived from Hinduism. Or so I seem to recall reading. Maybe this could account for TEC being so wacky.
Myers-Briggs is the bait that has gotten many hooked on Jung. Someone once said that Satan has to give away some truth to get people deceived. My wife and I have joked about starting a sin and temporament seminar to teach people which sins they are likely to commit because of their profile. Has anyone read “The Jung Cult” by Richard Noll? Jung was a proto-Nazi.
First lesson tonight? Darn, I am going to miss it.
There are 6.76 billion people. There are 12 zodiac signs. Thus, there are 563 million gemini’s in the world. Here is my (our) horoscope for the day:
[blockquote]The last few days haven’t exactly been the best, but today all that changes. The emphasis is on fun and romance; even though it’s Monday it is still likely to be a memorable day for all the right reasons. It’s also a good time to have a long chat with someone close if you wish to clear up a recent misunderstanding![/blockquote]
I wonder what Mr. Keusal would tell the subset of the 563 million who have loved ones dying today, whose taxes are being audited, who are getting fired, who have just been told they have cancer, etc. Perhaps, “Ignore all that. It’s fun and romance time!”
Ed,
have you ever seen an astrological profile similar to the one the Amazing Randi (per Philip’s post above) handed out? It’s really not that much different. a whole bunch of personality questions in addition to the ‘star chart’ stuff.
Frankly, I refuse to take a Myers-Briggs test. I tell everyone who asks me to, “I don’t need to, I know my sign” (by the way, if pressed, I say “my sign is the sign of the cross”).
One church I was considering attending [b][u]REQUIRED[/u][/b] the MB be taken before you could become a member. Wrong!
Another parish used it as a ‘screening’ for what ministries a person would be ‘qualified’ for. And others in the congregation would use it to screen out what ministries they didn’t want to be on (“I can’t serve with him, we’re two very different types!”).
And it was administered in that parish by a priest who was “trained and authorized to administer and grade the test”, so don’t tell me he ‘used it wrong’, or ‘didn’t know’. He knew.
Nope, it’s being used exactly the same way as astrology. I stand by my statement.
One might say that, having abandoned their path of the Son, these TECkies now follow the path of suns.
I you can’t make the astrology seminar, you can always shoot for the December 22 winter solstice labyrinth walk listed on the parish website. Sheesh.
Astrology is and ought to be offensive to all true Episcopalians. To the Orthodox, it’s forbidden knowledge. To those still capable of rational thought, it’s bushwa. To all Episcopalians, it’s just plain [i]tacky[/i].
There you go, three excellent reasons not to have it in the church!
A number of interesting responses here. While astrology is admittedly superstitious balderdash, nobody seems to have thought it was incompatible with Christianity until sometime after the Galileo prosecution. Arguably the most Christian work of literature in history, the Divine Comedy, makes no sense without the astrological allusions. It is obviously dumb for an Episcopal parish to offer a course in astrology, but that is because it is incompatible with science, not because it is inherently anti-Christian.
Similarly, one might argue with the Myers-Briggs. However, it is certainly not necessary to accept Jung’s theories in order to find the classifications pragmatically useful. A rather considerable body of scientific research suggests that they are. The idea of temperaments is not “derived from Hinduism,” but was one of the foundations of ancient, medieval, and early-modern Western medicine. Jung’s proclivities towards National Socialism are completely irrelevant as to whether his theories work, just as the politics of the Germans who first achieved nuclear fission are irrelevant as to whether atomic bombs and reactors work.
Thanks, #14 plainsparson, but the more interesting question is whether those on your side of the aisle are concerned enough about this to write the bishop. My guess is no, unless it’s a congratulatory note.
This would be my parish.
I’ll admit I raised an eyebrow at the astrology aspect, but on the other hand — the magi supposedly were astrologers, so perhaps this guy has some useful insight after all. However, I’m not taking the class, so I won’t find out.
On the other hand — because I wouldn’t be a good little reappraiser if I didn’t give y’all something to castigate me for — I have to say that I raise an equally skeptical eyebrow at the idea that tarot, astrology, or what-have-you are snares of the devil. It’s not a good idea to put any stock in them, sure, but… “journey to hell”? I roll my eyes in the general direction of that notion.
Ross, as an old St. A’s parishoner, I can provide you the Orthodox Christian response to “the Magi supposedly were astrologers”. Yes, and :
Thy Nativity O Christ our God has shown to the world the light of Wisdom. For by it those who worshipped the stars were taught by a star to adore You the Sun of Righteousness. And to know You the Orient from on high, O Lord, glory to thee.
That’s the total need for a baptized person to know about astrology.
1. Show your priest.
2. Then get ready for him to not understand it.
3. Don’t be surprised.
4. Leave.
Worked for me.
Interesting, # 26 have a look at Canon XXXVI of the council of LAODICEA, and the comments.
Canon XXXVI.
They who are of the priesthood, or of the clergy, shall not be magicians, enchanters, mathematicians, or astrologers; nor shall they make what are called amulets, which are chains for their own souls. And those who wear such, we command to be cast out of the Church.
Notes.
Ancient Epitome of Canon XXXVI.
Whoso will be priest must not be a magician, nor one who uses incantations, or mathematical or astrological charms, nor a putter on of amulets.
Some interesting and valuable information on charms will be found in Ducange (Glossarium, s.v. Phylacterea).
Balsamon.
“Magicians†are those who for any purpose call Satan to their aid. “Enchantors†are those who sing charms or incantations, and through them draw demons to obey them. “Mathematicians†are they who hold the opinion that the celestial bodies rule the universe, and that all earthly things are ruled by their influence. “Astrologers†are they who divine by the stars through the agency of demons, and place their faith in them.
Van Espen.
Zonaras also notes that the science of mathematics or astronomy is not at all hereby forbidden to the clergy, but the excess and abuse of that science, which even more easily may happen in the case of clergymen and consecrated persons than in that of laymen.
Astrology has been banned almost from the start of the Church.
Jon R
Of course astrology in unChristian! If the stars determine our fate, what did anyone need Christ for? I dunno though, if my stars predict that I shall make use of cult prostitution, must I succumb? If so, my wife is going to be some miffed.
The Myers-Briggs thing is news to me. What is it, exactly?
And yet, the stars speak to us all if we know what they say, I suppose. Just think, about 9 days from today, the days grow one minute longer in the after noon, and our unimportant star begins its long journey back. On the basis of this movement of a star, I predict that spring will return and summer will follow, and I shall see the swallows, laughing and chattering, on my power line. Right now, it is bitter cold, the snow is driving hard over the fields, and the whit e wolf is abroad; but the sun will return and keep God’s oldest promise to us who live in the Cold World. Larry
Dale, #26 – I sort of agree with you, but mainly disagree.
Yes, in days of old there was an element of astronomy in astrology, which we find in the Magi and in Acts 2:9-11 (where I understand the nations represented reflect the 12 astrological signs representing the Holy Spirit for the whole world). Obviously, this is not inconsistent with Christianity.
Yet divination was clearly condemned. See, inter alia, Leviticus 19:26, Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:6, and Deuteronomy 18:9-14.
No comments from me on Myers-Briggs (but then I’ve been told I’m Phlegmatic – “Mediates problems, Avoids conflicts”).
;-P
Larry, Myers-Briggs is a personality test — see the Wikipedia article here for some background. It gives you a four-letter code to describe your personality type, where the choices are:
Introverted or Extraverted
Sensing or iNtuitive
Thinking or Feeling
Judging or Perceiving
I’ve found M-B to be less useless than most other personality tests, but of course anything along those lines is best taken with large containers of salt. And there are places that put way too much reliance on M-B types; I agree with one of the commenters up-thread about that.
Now: back to my parish and this class. I’m not about to defend astrology; it’s nonsense, and we all know that. And if you pressed me, I’d be forced to admit that I think my parish could probably have found a better class to offer than this one.
But I continue to be unimpressed with the notion that astrology is somehow evil — some kind of stealth Satanism recruiting tool. There are good ideas and bad ideas and stupid ideas and just plain wrong ideas, and there are useful and less useful ways of spending one’s study time, but I have little truck with the suggestion that there is “forbidden knowledge.”
Furthermore, I trust the people of my parish to exercise critical attention. If there are useful nuggets to be found in this class, then I trust them to pick out those nuggets and discard the rest.
Ross, the main reason for a Christian not to do it is because God said so.
Ross, why not have a class on how to light candles around a pentagram? After all, it only represents an idea that’s just plain wrong.
Actually Ross #28 being totally serious I would suggest that necromancy, tarot and ouija and related forms of divination may well be snares of the devil. There are a great many instances in the bible where such practices are outlawed and practitioners found guilty of sinning against God.
Consider the witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28 who Saul used to raise the spirit of Samuel. It is made very clear that he sinned in doing so and shortly afterwards as Samuel told him would happen he was defeated in battle and took his own life.
These practices do seem to be allied to the pagan religions and some people who have gone in for such things have had mental problems subsequently from my experience.
Please encourage those of your parish not to take these things up. There is enough of the true Spirit in Christianity and I would encourage your parish to explore that – it is much more productive.
Re #30: Again, it depends on how you define “astrology.” Insofar as it involves the worship of the stars or the invocation of them as demonic or elemental powers, obviously astrology is incompatible with Christianity. Likewise for the belief that the stars reflect an inescapable fate that will inevitably overwhelm free will.
Most Christians prior to the modern period (including, notably, Dante) did, however, believe that all creation is interconnected by its participation in the Divine Being that created it. It was therefore likely, they reasoned, that human lives (the microcosm) and the natural world (the macrocosm) had enough in common that knowledge of one could contribute to knowledge of the other. The same divine influence that drove the orderly movements of the heavens also predestined the lives of men and women to move in certain ways, but not in others. Divine grace descending from the Empyrean to the earth must affect the planetary spheres as it filtered through them. If God was the prime mover of the universe, that impetus would be reflected in all the things that were moved, and was worth of study.
“Astrology” in that sense was no more banned by the Church than “mathematics” in its modern meaning. It seems obvious (to me, if not to an astrologer) that it makes no sense to use geocentric calculations to help understand life in a heliocentric solar system, but that incompatibility—which makes a course in astrology rather silly for a modern Episcopal church—is really a scientific issue, not a spiritual one.
[blockquote]
Phil Said: Thanks, #14 plainsparson, but the more interesting question is whether those on your side of the aisle are concerned enough about this to write the bishop. My guess is no, unless it’s a congratulatory note. [/blockquote]
Phil, Not sure what you believe, but it seems you see me as an adversary.
I see astrology as cooky illogical quakery. I see being a christian (being a disciple of Jesus Christ) as the legitmate way of living ones life to the glory of God. But sometimes Christianity can be used to justify cooky illogical quakery. We just have to know how to discern the diffrence.
As someone who was once expert in astrology, but who has been led away from the study of it by God’s grace – and led to realise why it’s harmful – people might be interested in this: [url=http://elizaphanian.blogspot.com/2007/09/september-synchroblog-on-astrology-and.html]What I want to say, albeit briefly, is why I think exploring astrological lore is at best unhelpful to our spiritual journey, and at worse actively malefic and harmful. My concerns centre on two things: motive and trust….[/url]
Next week: Channelling and Christianity! Come early so you can pick your favorite saint!
#33 will indicate the difference in this ECUSA parish under it’s first rector and the current one. The first had integrity, honsty and was a believer. Though a low church Episcopalian he even suggested confession before communion!
#41:
You’ll forgive me if I feel somewhat partisan about my parish, which I love, and my rector, whom I admire enormously. That makes it difficult not to perceive statements like yours as a personal attack, and I’m trying not to perceive it that way but it’s not easy.
Suffice it to say that I disagree, most vehemently, with your implicit slur.
[blockquote]They who are of the priesthood, or of the clergy, shall not be magicians, enchanters, mathematicians, or astrologers; nor shall they make what are called amulets, which are chains for their own souls. And those who wear such, we command to be cast out of the Church.[/blockquote]
I am glad I switched from mathematics to medicine!
How else was God to speak to Zoroastrians than through their own science/religion? But once they had obeyed the light they had (!) they progressed to hearing His voice directly. And their obedience to that word saved Jesus’ life.
Number 39, Sam, thanks for the excellent post on your experience with astrology et al. It rings true with a dark early-on chapter in my own life. Raised in the Episcopal Church of godly parents and on a quest to claim my own faith identity, I ran badly afoul of this stuff. I don’t think it’s far fetched to suggest that today’s spiritual seekers may be equally vulnerable especially if the old stuff is dressed up in trendy language.
Part of the diffiiculty, I think, we are having in this discussion is that some commenters have not been in the addictive and death-dealing grip of astrology and other occult practices. Those who have understand that these practices are soul destroying, and I do believe our God really hates that which destroys those whom he loves. Also, I can fully see that if astrology, for some, has only been a laughable distraction based on shoddy science, then that person might think some posters here are being a bit over the top – perhaps even excessively so. Maybe it’s PTSD, but it’s hard to be rational about something that has so nearly stolen one’s soul.
Truthfully, what worries me the most now is the thought of a vulnerable, spirtually weak or naive person who wanders into a church-based astrology course and fallls into delusion because of it.
I especially liked this quote from Sam’s blog as he gets at the root of the problem from the human side.
I am an INTJ but not a Leo. So there!
Re #46: Based on my reading of the discussions here, posters on T19 include an awful lot more INTJ’s than our frequency in the general population.
Ross, go look in the parish library. If C.S. Lewis hasn’t been banished, you’ll likely find the very books I read in high school. You may (again, if they aren’t censored out) the Nicene Fathers originally owned by the first rector. Read them and try to find anything, anything at all, in common with your present, or last two rectors, present or last bishop. This isn’t implicit, it’s explicit : with the clergy that were there 40 years ago, the topic of astrology wouldn’t be a “supplement” to Christianity, it would be an obvious error and preached against. Your current clerics are entertainers, not ministers.
Dale, #37, etc: I am, as usual, sympathetic to your efforts to add a more balanced element to the discussion.
I would, however, disagree somewhat as to your last statement. In the sense that a proper astrological chart seeks to identify the inclination of all the celestial objects at the exact moment and place of your birth, I would say that an argument could be made that the combination of their gravitational forces will exert a unique physical effect on your body on earth. Properly practiced therefore, an astrological chart is in some ways much more nuanced than a Myers-Briggs test (and arguably requires a lot more scientific skill to execute). Of course, nobody has yet come up with a scientific reason why such a force exerted at the time of birth would actually mean anything. (On the other hand, there is some evidence that animals and birds do respond to tiny forces which we are unable to detect!)
Having gone through the exercise of plotting such a chart, I have found the visual result to be a curiosity against which one can compare an understanding of one’s own personality (especially in respect of the introvert/extrovert element), in much the same way that the I Ching can be useful in helping you answer your own questions.
In the sense therefore, that a chart is actually based (sort of) on the physical elements of God’s creation, I am not sure that there is necessarily anything wrong in it per se. The problem come when you try an use this as a predictive tool either for yourself or for others. Then it becomes idolotry (and/or foolishness).
In a sense this is like the dilemma that faces the Christian scientist. As scientists, it is proper that we should seek to discover how God’s creation works, but this tells us virtually nothing about God himself. And in any case, as Christians, we should be interested in knowing what God wants us to do, not what we think He wants us to do. We cannot discover this by trying to interpret elements of His creation, only by listening to what He has told us in Scripture.
Jennie TCO: Please forgive what I have written above. I do not mean to trivialize the very real dangers of the occult. For many, it is good advice to stay well away from certain subjects entirely. However, for others, sometimes it is better to understand where some of the boundaries are.
I guess I shoulda foreseen this …
Gordian: If your 50 was directed to my 49, I suppose I should have made it clear, that I was not in any way endorsing the idea of an Astrology Workshop. I imagine it will proceed on precisely the lines that everyone suspects…
BTW: I always enjoy your posts! Thanks for contributing.
Ross, I sympathize. This is kind of a silly thing for the parish to be doing, and it’s creating a lot of bad impressions. If everyone viewed horoscopes, palm reading, and so on, as silly parlor games, not meaning much, then perhaps they wouldn’t carry much danger. However there are people who really become very serious about such things. All people want meaning, and to be looking for it, seriously, in the wrong places can be dangerous both to children and adults. When my daughters were small, ouija boards were in vogue, and they got scared about it. I pointed out to them that they could reach God in prayer at any time, and that if the ouija wasn’t communicating with God, with whom might they be talking? I suggested they pass it by, and this made them much more comfortable. What is a class in astrology teaching your parish children about authority and meaning?
#49 Robert,
[i]Of course, nobody has yet come up with a scientific reason why such a force exerted at the time of birth would actually mean anything. [/i]
The force exerted by the planets/stars at the time of birth might be one factor many astrologers use to explain why astrology works.
But other astrologers argue differently, suggesting that the planets/stars act as cosmic “clocks”, if you will: the planets/stars no more directly “cause” things to happen, than a clock striking noon “causes” people to eat lunch. And the clock can’t “force” you to eat, but it’s a useful tool for knowing “when” you should eat — that is, if you can’t simply listen to your own body. In spiritual terms, we could say that listening to your body corresponds to listening to God; and watching the clock corresponds to watching the planets/stars. It’s best to listen to your body, but if you can’t, well, watch the clock.
The workshop at the Church is based on a form of Western astrology that attempts to use astrology as a form of psychological and spiritual growth/understanding, which, I believe, is the true purpose of astrology. Some people are “jovial” (Jupiterian), or “mercurial” (Mercury-like) or “choleric” (or Sun/Mars-oriented). And there’s a reason why there are “seven” deadly sins: each sin corresponds to one of the seven classical planets. If someone’s astrological chart indicates a heavy dominance of solar energy, then that person’s characteristic vice would be “pride” (and their characteristic virtue might be “faith”). I think the Apostle Peter is astrologically associated with Leo, the sign ruled by the solar energy, thus putting Peter’s characteristic fiery energy in context. And of course each Apostle, and each Tribe, is associated with a particular sign. The Bible itself is full of astrological symbolism.
Spiritual growth is the real purpose of all astrology, whether East or West. Using astrology for predictive purposes, or for finding out “what’s going to happen next”, or as a way of avoiding trust in God — all those things are secondary, and can be spiritually harmful for many or most people, especially given the fact that most astrologers are not really “adept” at the art and the fact that many people are too thirsty for easy answers. But if one finds someone who knows the art (such as the Magi), and if one keeps a scientific, yet spiritual, attitude (such as the Magi kept), then astrology can serve as an amazing way to realize that, yes, there is a cosmic clock set by a Clockmaker, and that this Clockmaker seeks to attract our attention to the job in front of us, rather than have us always watching the clock.
In Yates’ poem The Magi, the cloud figures are searching “being by Calvary’s turbulence unsatisfied, seeking to find once more, the uncontrolable nystery on the bestial floor.” The Magi are everywhere.
#49 and #53:
I don’t recall the exact numbers, but I’ve seen the calculation done and the gravitational force exerted by distant stars upon an infant is vastly less than the gravitational force exerted by the obstetrician and anyone else in the delivery room. And nobody charges big fees to plot their positions 🙂
#52 Katherine, I think I understand your position. I remember a story that when my parents were first married, one of my uncles or cousins — I don’t remember who — was staying with them for a while, and decided it would be a hoot to draw a pentagram and light some candles and try to summon various demons. My mother overruled him, on the grounds that if it didn’t work he’d have made a mess and wasted some perfectly good candles, and if it did work, he was in big, big trouble.
I don’t know exactly what the thrust of this particular class will be. As I said, I’m not taking it. My suspicion is that it will be along the lines that #53 suggests, heavier on the “spirituality is about personal growth” aspect and pretty light on the “occult” elements.
As for the children, they’re pretty much all neck-deep in pageant rehearsals right now. If questions do come up in my Sunday School class, we’ll talk about it; and I can see that being a useful discussion to have. Beyond that, most of the parents here that I know can be relied on to handle the topic if it comes up at home.
[i]My mother overruled him, on the grounds that if it didn’t work he’d have made a mess and wasted some perfectly good candles, and if it did work, he was in big, big trouble. [/i]
Oh, that’s rich! Mind if I borrow that sometime? LOL
Advent blessings!
Jim E. <><
#53: Thank you for your explanation.
To be honest, I’m not sure that I understand what you are getting at with your concept of cosmic clocks. This may be because I’m not sure I agree that “listening to your body corresponds to listening to God”. Listening to my body sounds to me like listening to me.
As I said, a birth chart may have some value as a sounding board for assessing who I think I am (in the same sense that examining one’s feelings after tossing a coin is often a good way of identifying what one really feels). And, in this respect, although I was initially tempted to dismiss your jovial and mercurial references, I suppose a similar argument could be made that if the chart shows that I am prideful or slothful, I can test my reaction to these assertions, but I don’t see how this can be used for spiritual growth from a Christian perspective. Unless you accept the predictive nature of the chart (which I do not), there appears to be nothing in this system that tells us anything about what God wants me to do (which I would say can only come from Scripture or from the Holy Spirit). In the absence of such knowledge, spiritual growth seems difficult to assess.
Dale Rye – I don’t always agree with you, but I really enjoy your posts. I usually learn something from them.
Hi, I am the rector of St. Andrew’s Church that is offering the course being discussed. It seems people have a very odd perception of what the class is we are offering.I think this might be because the presenter was interviewed on the radio as an astrologer rather than as the student of theology that he also is. Our congregation is in no way advocating or even studying astrology. We are looking at the story of Christ’s birth as told in the Gospel of Matthew with the image of the star and the Magi (astrologers) who are central to the story. Of the 35 people signed up for the class, nearly half have not been in our church or any church before. We are using Raymond Brown’s, The Birth of the Messiah, and Dan draws on his Roman Catholic training and interest in astrology to offer a fun, captivating approach to the Christmas story. At St. Andrew’s we are in dialogue with many beliefs and philosophies because it helps us understand the culture in which we are proclaiming Christ. It is funny to see it become a big deal, but no, no pentegrams, just open discussion about the bible, Jung, astrology and a wide-ranging set of topics. Feel free to email me offline at pstrimer@comcast.net if want to know more of what we are doing and why. It seems to be working as we a big, active church that offers the full range of Christian expression.