From the New York Times:
In Trinity’s case, parishioners say their situation is different, since the church traces its roots to 1747, 38 years before the first general convention of the Episcopal Church in the United States.
Moreover, Trinity’s real estate and other property has “always been held in its own name,” according to a letter sent Monday by the parish’s lawyer, Howard M. Wood III, to Bishop Smith. Mr. Wood also warned that “any interference with the property rights of Trinity Church Society will be met with a claim of trespass.”
Local police are aware of the situation at the church but believe a showdown on Sunday is unlikely. “We had a discussion with the diocese, and it appears that there isn’t going to be any action taken on Sunday,” said Lt. Thomas Grimaldi, a spokesman for the Bristol police. “They’re going to take the legal route.”
John W. Spaeth III, a top administrative aide to Bishop Smith in Hartford, dismissed the notion of a confrontation. “There are canonical ways we will work with to seize the property,” he said. “We’re not people who move quickly. We’re people who are thoughtful and try to negotiate.”
Fr. Helmandollar says that the pricelessness comes from the memories. How true. In California this fight is far from over, but maybe it should be. I cannot judge.
As an honorary member of a for-now-displaced California church, my heart breaks at the thought of losing the building where I gave my life to Christ. But the hospital I was born in was torn down, and I’m still here. The chapel I was married in was torn down, and I’m still married. They can take that building (maybe), but they’ll never take the salvation! And they’ll never take the friends, the memories, and the solid Christian education!
They are fighting for what is worthless. And they mislead, if not outright lie, when they claim they will negotiate. “Negotiate” means “my way or the highway.” I’ll choose the Highway to Heaven, thanks.
[blockquote] There are 7,500 Episcopal churches and only 45 you would deem as being dissident,†Mr. Spaeth said. “If they all left tomorrow, the impact would be insignificant.
[/blockquote]
I see the talking points have been well distributed. But it’s utter nonsense. Everyone knows way more than 45 churches are involved here, there are entire dioceses that are dissident. Have KJS and others forgotten all those threating letters from Beers? As a final point- those “45” churches have already left, no “if” about it. When it reaches 450 churches, and it will, is it still going to be “insignificant”?
I am from the parish of Trinity. I went to Trinity after I (and a good portion of the original parish) was exiled from our home chuch of St. John’s in Bristol, CT when it was taken over by +Smith 2 years ago. NancyNH I couldn’t agree w/you more. It’s just a building. We did survive w/o it. And now we face the same thing again… where do we worship?
TEC is absolutely relentless in this regard. It’s my understanding that Trinity made arrangements with another Lutheren church in town to use their facilities if we needed a place to worship. Next thing we get a call that says their Bishop spoke to +Smith and now the offer no longer stands. Can you imangine that? Not only is TEC trying to take our building, but they are also making sure we have no other place to go. Will someone please tell me where is the Christianity in that move? May God have mercy on them.
God save us from this heresy!
CT6,
For those of us orthodox in the ELCA, New England Synod has made decisions in the last 12 months that moves it in the direction of this same heresy. Their synod council, with the consent of their bishop, has approved an order for same-sex blessing service and made it available as a resource to their congregations. Theologically our bishop is on the same page as “yours”.
Indeed, God say us from this growing heresy!
Maryland Brian
should have been “God save us from this growing heresy!”
It’s really not just about “two different churches,” it’s about two different Americas with different views of doctrine and tradition and radically different views of the future.
[blockquote] More than 40 Episcopal congregations from around the country have lodged similar protests in various degrees since the Robinson appointment, according to a spokeswoman for the Episcopal Church in New York.[/blockquote]
Sort of like saying “More than a dozen rebel colonists gathered around Lord Cornwallis’ forces at Yorktown.”
Washington’s army and French allied were indeed more than a dozen. It was a truthful statement that did not really convey the facts on the ground. Shame on the NY Times. They should have a fact checker.
John W. Spaeth, a top administrative aide to Bishop Smith, said the following: ” We’re not people who move quickly. We’re people who are THOUGHTFUL and try to NEGOTIATE.”
This is either an absolute outright lie or Mr. Spaeth is suffering from some serious disease that adversely affects his power of recall. Was the Dioces of CT “thoughtful” when it invaded St. John’s-Bristol two years ago and dislodged its minister on the false grounds of abandonment of communion? I suppose it is considered thoughtful to remove a duly constituted vestry from its appointed duties and disparage the integrity of those who faithfully served the church by claiming (falsely) financial malfeasance. Did the Diocese “negotiate” with anyone in parish leadership before it stormed the building, changed it locks, and stole its computer? Perhaps the installation of a revisionist priest-in-charge over the objections of the parish leadership is considered by you to be thoughtful behavior? Now you and your fellow stormtroopers are ready to seize the property of another orthodox parish, dislodge its duly elected vestry, and dismiss its minister leaving another empty church building with no worshippers in its wake. I’m sorry Mr. Spaeth, but that does not sound like very thoughtful (or Christian) behavior to me. TEC way is all about power (real or imagined), authority, and money. Forget about evangelism and the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sad really…….
After this quote:
John W. Spaeth III, a top administrative aide to Bishop Smith in Hartford, dismissed the notion of a confrontation. ‘There are canonical ways we will work with to seize the property’, he said
I wonder if Mr Spaeth might not be such a top administrative aide after all.
Did he really say seize ?
Chambers defines it thus:
seize verb (seized, seizing) 1 to take or grab suddenly, eagerly or forcibly. 2 to take by force; to capture. 3 to affect suddenly and deeply; to overcome He was seized by panic. 4 to take legal possession of someone or something. 5 naut to lash or make fast. 6 (often seize on or upon something) to use or exploit it eagerly
Someone should point out to Mr Spaeth the connotations he invokes fly in the face of the ECP’s argument that it is the conservatives who are seeking to rest property (seize, capture, take, grab… ) from the National church and dioceses, and not the other way round.
Could it be that this ‘top aide’ forgot himself for a moment, and mis-spoke revealing the bishops true intentions?
This bishop shrinks not to intrude
He takes stern steps to heal, not feud
So what if he the pews denude?
His loving lips still say, “INCLUDEâ€
For a more extended poetic reflection on Bp. Smith’s strategy and tactics, click here: http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/4225/#77522
Ah, Irenaeus . . . you frighten me.
; > )
Sarah [#11]: Yes, there’s more where that came from.
#1 NancyNH, #3 CT6Sister, I agree with your statements of the identity of the Church. The Church, the body of Christ is not a building. When I was in the Navy I worshipped on the fantail area of one ship, and the hangar deck of another. I have had the joy of woshipping with a number of Christians in places you couldn’t call a church. I suspect if KJS continues on her chosen path the rector of our little church and his wife are ready to leave and it is possible my wife and I will be next in line. I rejoice to hear that there are members of the Anglican church close by that would welcome us.
MD Brian, thanks for the insight on ELCA… I’m not surprised, just very disappointed in those that say they are Christians. We all know they will be judged more harshly.
To Harvey & others on this thread, thanks so much for the support. It would be easy to cave in, much harder to stand up for scripture. He never said following Him would be easy. Thanks for the words of strength.
And Irenaeus, loved the poetry…. you’ve really got to get together w/”the Bard of St. John’s”. We are in exile together at Trinity. You are both truthful, comical, and sad at the same time. Thanks for the break!
And for the record, we worshiped at Trinity on 7/8, with many supporters in the pews! All without a confrontation from +Smith. We continue to pray, but do not let our guard down. Only God knows where we’ll be next Sunday, but with His help we will be together. That is all that really matters.
Your sister in Christ.