The presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church declared Thursday that church members who joined a newly formed conservative denomination “are no longer Episcopalians,” even as she predicted that the exodus had largely run its course and would not trigger further large-scale defections.
In her first public comments since a coalition of 700 parishes announced the formation of a new North American church Wednesday, the Most. Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori also reiterated that church property must remain in Episcopal hands, a position disputed by breakaway leaders.
“They are no longer Episcopalians,” Jefferts Schori said of those who left. “They have made that very clear in their departures.
“Those who were formally bishops in the Episcopal Church are no longer understood to be bishops in the Episcopal Church,” she added in a meeting with Times reporters. “They are free to associate with whom they wish.”
“I think we’re on the downhill side,” she said.
I’m guilty of taking her quote out of context, but it caught me as ironically prophetic.
“I think we’re on the downhill side.”
She is certainly right about that.
At the end of a long painful exchange two years ago, a liberal ECUSA priest in Maryland exclaimed to me “This isn’t *your* Church!”
Now it’s official.
I think two things will determine whether TEC is on the downhill side: 1) what level of recognition is conferred upon the new Province; and 2) what level of restraint is showed by GC2009 – if B033 is repealed and/or a gay marriage rite ( or tacit approval of gay marriage at the diocean level) there could still be many departures. St Martins and St Johns in Texas are not happy campers, and TEC still has big problems in SC, the South in general, Dallas, and Albany just to name a few.
Mrs. Schori says that like it’s a bad thing. 🙂
Mrs. Schori has a wonderful way with words.
Hasn’t she been saying essentially the same thing [i]every time[/i] another group leaves? And didn’t tec leaders say the same when the Florida Eleven left years ago? Weren’t they saying the same thing when there were just a dozen or so AMiA parishes? And when San Joaquin left?
There may not be a mass exodus tomorrow, but more and more people ARE leaving, week after week.
She emphasized that “We’re not a church that says you have to believe this one thing in this one way and there is no room for difference of opinion.”
And that’s final. If you don’t believe it there is no room for you here.
Marion, this woman has seldom spoken such truth about her beliefs! She is not a Christian, but a corporate CEO who fires people who don’t see things her way, in my opinion.
In actuality, the separation is just beginning. Some will still wait to see what happens with GC09…but after that Priest, Churches, and people will see the path and more will leave…maybe even more than have thus far.
I doubt other dioceses will leave…but priest, churches, and people will as they have been already. It is wishful thinking on the Presiding Bishop’s part to think that the worst is over.
Frankly, I believe she knows the truth but cannot say so for numerous reasons.
“There may not be a mass exodus tomorrow, but more and more people ARE leaving, week after week.”
And that is one thing that KJS and many others in ECUSA fail to see. There is the departure of these dioceses. There may be the departure of others, as well as congregations within dioceses. And there is the constant, incremental departure of individiuals . . . to other Anglican bodies, to the LCMS, to other protestant bodies, to Rome, to the Orthodox . . .
Those departures don’t make the news, but they also have their effect.
What our Presiding Bishop makes clear is that after a decade of being blackmailed by the vocal minority who have insisted that they would leave if the LGBT baptized were fully included in the work and witness of the Episcopal Church, we are now free to get on with the work of incarnating God’s justice and living God’s love.
We will be looking for more and more diocesan conventions to pass resolutions affirming the full inclusion of all the baptized in all the sacraments of the church as we move toward our General Convention next summer in Anaheim. And once in Anaheim we will be looking for the Nat’l Episcopal Church to take some further steps forward on LGBT inclusion.
Lots to rejoice and be glad in this morning!
Right. That was the point.
Hummmmm… first truth spoken about it being a large scale defection. At least it’s a start to admitting what is happening, like, “Hello. I’m Kate. And I am an elected bishop in a church with large-scale defections.”
I think Susan succinctly reminds us of what GC09 will be about, as if there was ever any doubt. Now that orthodox leaders have been unlawfully purged or bullied into silence, the hard Left is “free” to perform its cordless bungee jump into the abyss of heresy and sin.
We know what our somnambulant ABC will do (nothing), but it will be interesting to see what faithful Bishops like +Lawrence will do once their organization is in the full, open grip of heretics.
The first nice thing I’ve heard she said about anyone. To not be Episcopalian. Enjoy it. Revel in it. Believe something. What took some people so long?
#12’s comments ought to be cc’d to every bishop who has not already compromised their Faith. For those of you who have aspirations to reform TEC, here is the confidence of the pansexualists that they have won and are enjoying the victory. For those who feel called to suffer within TEC, here is the spiritual source of your sorrow. For those who believe you can (hermetically) keep the Faith within a sold-out heretical denomination, ….what can one say?!?
What our Presiding Bishop makes clear is that after a decade of being blackmailed by the vocal minority who have insisted that they would leave if the LGBT baptized were fully included in the work and witness of the Episcopal Church, we are now free to get on with the work of incarnating God’s justice and living God’s love.
Of course, even if this is true, it nonetheless follows a few decades when the leadership of TEC was blackmailed by another vocal minority: the LGBT activists. Of course, during that time, the activists broke rules, bent canons, and did whatever else it took to allow their “justice issue” to be advanced. And then, when conservatives began to use similar tactics in 2003, suddenly the same group that pioneered the tactics becomes heavy-handed against others that use them. I guess whether you are a troublemaker or fighter for justice depends on which side you are on.
[blockquote] The presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church declared Thursday that church members who joined a newly formed conservative denomination “are no longer Episcopalians,”[/blockquote]
If anyone ever wanted a textbook example of a tautology, there you go.
#14 — best comment so far
“We will be looking for more and more diocesan conventions to pass resolutions affirming the full inclusion of all the baptized in all the sacraments of the church as we move toward our General Convention next summer in Anaheim. And once in Anaheim we will be looking for the Nat’l Episcopal Church to take some further steps forward on LGBT inclusion. ”
Should be a slam-dunk, but at some point your team will be performing in front of empty stands…
[i] Sarcastic comment deleted by elf. [/i]
Forgot to mention the (old) line “Today no one from the Pope to Mao Tse Tung is quite safe from the possibility that he might be an Anglican”. Today in your presence, KJS has defied this. It is indeed a bright day.
[blockquote]…after a decade of being blackmailed by the vocal minority…[/blockquote]
Pot? Kettle? Black? You’re funny Susan. Thanks for the laugh.
[i]Slightly edited by elves. Please refrain from derogatory nicknames.[/i]
““We will be looking for more and more diocesan conventions to pass resolutions affirming the full inclusion of all the baptized in all the sacraments of the church as we move toward our General Convention next summer in Anaheim. And once in Anaheim we will be looking for the Nat’l Episcopal Church to take some further steps forward on LGBT inclusion. “
Perhaps that will catlayze the remaining fence sitters to shake the dust from their sandals also.
Re # 12
Susan,
[blockquote] We will be looking for more and more diocesan conventions to pass resolutions affirming the full inclusion of all the baptized in all the sacraments of the church as we move toward our General Convention next summer in Anaheim. And once in Anaheim we will be looking for the Nat’l Episcopal Church to take some further steps forward on LGBT inclusion.[/blockquote]
I hope you are right in your predictions. I can think of nothing which more effectively hasten the recognition of the new province by the wider Anglican Communion.
Under the mercy,
[url=http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/]John[/url]
An [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj4pUphDitA]Orthodox [/url] Christian
[i] Personal comment deleted by elf. [/i]
And it was a jolly good one too.
No longer Episcopalians, but still episcopalian in the same way that all churches with bishops are, e.g. Roman Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans. The time is soon coming when her constituency will no longer be Anglican according to the definition of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral, et al. Meanwhile, KJS goes blithely down the garden path.
Well, we certainly seen the Diocese of Missouri deny all the requests of the Windsor “process” and all the teaching of the Anglican Communion in Lambeth 1998 I.10 – thereby declaring itself un-Anglican. Same for a number of other dioceses. Susan hopes this groundswell of anti-anglicanism continues through to its culmination in GC2009. It will. So when the last vestige of interdependence, subsidiarity, accountability, and commonality is gone, will the GLBT church formerly known as the (Protestant) Episcopal Church in the USA be recognizably anglican or christian? Or will its Donatist character be so evident that even the agendites will have to recognize they are no longer any semblance of anglican, other than (perhaps) vestments? Though trends in the latter have been awful of late, too.
Blackmailed? Blackmailed? Where are the elves when we need them?
To think that it has come to this, that I can say with relief that I am indeed not an episcopalian. Someone here remarked re another entry that the Episcopalian Church has never really been an American church, and this struck me as being unusually perceptive. To be sure, the decline in ASA in mainline churches is real, but the decline in TEC is clearly terminal, and this may well be the evidence that TEC has never been ours. It reminds me of Frost’s line “The land was ours before we were the land’s….”
The issue isn’t simply that I do not want the Susan Russells of the world running any church I belong to – although this is true – but rather the course she and TEC are following is one that is inherently “European,” not American. This will at last be the true cause of its demise. America was not America when TEC arrived on these shores.
We did not begin to be American until the Civil War cast the anvil wherein our true identity was swaged. Our religious tradition comes from Plymouth and Boston, not Jamestown, in so many subtle ways they cannot be traced unless someone can trace the genome of Americanness. The new province therefore has an opportunity to grow up, to mature, a true American persona. No, I am not at all clear what I mean by “grow up,” but I know that we have an opportunity to grow out of our adolescence. I continue to think with ever more certainty that the Susan Russells and t he ++Schoris are like the appendix or the little toe, once vital appendages which have become irrelevant because the evolved body keeps them alive even without a true function. It is this evolved body I refer to as “growing up.” Larry
Let it not be seen that I am defending Russell and her ilk in any way – this comment has nothing to do with that? But 29? “Our religious tradition comes from Plymouth and Boston?” Does it not come via Jerusalem, Athens and Rome?
So much for the universal Church – did I miss the Epistle to the Americans?
[i]Note from the elves. We chose to leave Susan Russell’s comment unedited. Her statement about “blackmail” may be inflammatory, but we think it’s important to let it stand. It wasn’t a direct accusation against any one person, so not ad hominem, per se. Please respond civilly and avoid the personal attacks. Thanks. — the elves[/i]
Susan Russell and Friends, my wife and I stopped referring to ourselves as Episcopalians because we are ashamed to have been a part of that “Church” for 43 years. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I’d live to see the day when a so-called Christian clerygperson would question Christ’s divinity the way your Presiding Bishop has, nor did I ever think that Holy Scripture was open to be “rewritten” as the disgraced Charles Bennison said it could.
[blockquote] “We will be looking for more and more diocesan conventions to pass resolutions affirming the full inclusion of all the baptized in all the sacraments of the church as we move toward our General Convention next summer in Anaheim…” [/blockquote]
Thus demonstrating TEC’s sincere commitment to ‘restraint’ and the concern for the wider Anglican Communion and the unity of the church.
Sorry I did not know the comment would be taken so. I honestly did find her comment amusing. But I don’t think being labeled as no longer Episcopalian is a bad thing. And if breaking away from Canterbury all together is needed to preserve the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith as expressed in Anglicanism until the illegal innovations by the modernists then so be it.
” . . . we are now free to get on with the work of incarnating God’s justice and living God’s love.”
“. . . we are now free to get on with the work of incarnating [815 justice] and living [815 love].”
Nothing really new there.
RE: “. .. here is the confidence of the pansexualists that they have won and are enjoying the victory.”
Naw — Susan always blusters. It’s all she knows over on enemy websites. ; > )
RE: “For those who feel called to suffer within TEC, here is the spiritual source of your sorrow.”
I smile when I read comments from her, Stuart. Doesn’t give me a trace of sorrow — merely the giggles. I’m sorry you don’t see the transparency of Susan’s rhetoric over here, but I always do, and it always adds to the fun, in my opinion.
My wife and I rejoice that we have been “excommunicated” from The Episcopal “Church” because we went with the Southern Cone along with our bishop, +John-David Schofield. Halleluiah!
I’m going to save these comments, indeed whole threads, and put them in a time capsule, and in about 10 years or so, I’ll look at them again. I’ll explain to what few interested parties there will be at that time about this schismatic group that high hopes of being a new province or some other such nonsense, but how they fizzled out under the weight of their own dogma.
[i] They are no longer Episcopalians [/i] —KJS
From KJS’ tone, you’d think she was putting ACNA members in their place. They [i] are [/i] in their place. That’s why they’re smiling.
Having KJS tell you you’re “no longer Episcopalians” is a bit like having Pharoah tell you you’re no longer his slaves.
Irenaeus, you should see MY smile! You, too, Susan Russell!
RE: “I’ll explain to what few interested parties there will be at that time about this schismatic group that high hopes of being a new province or some other such nonsense, but how they fizzled out under the weight of their own dogma.”
Just as long as you also tell us what the ASA of TEC is at that time, Plinx . . . ; > )
#30. You have misunderstood my intention. The Jamestown effort was a CofE/Roman effort and its effects were limited in both time and space. The Pilgrims and Puritans quickly became a new world undertaking because they had to adjust to radically new conditions and they did so. The Jamestown effort was not really permanent; the Plymouth colony was always precisely that. The image of the city on the hill is still with us in a thousand ways. The separation of church and state, hinted at in Boston under Winthrop, the bicameral legislature – the very notion of the balance of powers in OUR sense – is Winthrop’s actual handiwork (it all started over a pig, believe it or not), the sense of hang together or hang separately, the belief in bringing the Light to the benighted, the peculiar notion that a sense of humor and church were not inimical, that inflammatory mix of “Don’t Tred On Me” and the church as community gathering place for all occasions, all this and more, together, is what I was talking about. And this all comes (ironically) from Massachusetts. The text is from Bethlehem; it’s time the book was made in America. Larry
A tremendous number of Episcopal churches are going to be going out of business in the next 12 months due to the economy, so I don’t think we are going to have to wait that long for the end of the denomination.
For some reason Schori’s remarks here remind me of the temptations Jesus faced in the wilderness. “All this will be yours…if you tow the party line…”
That’s my name, don’t wear it out Mrs. Schori.
I must disagree with Mr. Morse’s yankee-centric analysis. As Anglicans our religious traditions do not run from Plymouth but do in fact come from Jamestown/Williamsburg (Jamestown was not permanent because it is located in a swamp and was not suitable hence Williamsburg). The House of Burgess in Williamsburg was the first democratically elected legislature. I would recommend Albion’s Seed to those who are curious to see how America was founded by two different groups of Englishmen – Royalists/Southerners and Roundheads/Puritans/Yankees – they fought two wars one in England (1660s) and our own Civil War. It reflects two different and sometimes antithetical value systems (New England and the South have voted against one another in every close election in American history). It is New England which has abandoned its religous heritage formerly- Puritan – and has adopted current European style religious views – secular humanist. I believe it is the secular humanist “religion” that one can argue that TEC has adopted that Mr. Morse is refering to. Meanwhile most of the rest of America (at least American Christians in established denominations) are still following the European religions that were imported RC, Calvanist (Presbyteran/Baptist), Methodist (an offshoot of Anglicanism). I hope the new Anglican Church honors its own heritage and does not adopt the Puritan heritage which is really its ancient foe.
Sorry I left out the Lutherans (Germany) in my last post as a non-Puritan European imported Christian faith.
What a relief to be able to stop saying “but I am not that kind of Episcopalian” here in flyover territory – where the Episcopal Church is certainly understood and experienced as a one issue church. Clearly differentiating Episcopalians from Anglican on the PB’s part is only one part of the mix, of course. All within ECUSA/TEC/GGG/EO-PAC have to await the final polity arbiter of inclusiveness and diversity, the Episcopal Organization Political Action Committee (aka the General Convention), to ratify this, of course. Because despite its name of episcopal the ECUSA/TEC/GCC/EO-PAC is not governed by bishops who abandon their episcopacy for the General Convention impriomatur. One hears this is due to “polity”. Its true roots are mere politics.
But however one defines the roots, the differentiation is now explicit within the USA. For Anglican observers, it has been visible since 1998, and is ineluctably differentiated – rather like a subcutaneous abscess which has pained the Body and is now pointing and capable of intervention and relief. Incision and drainage, followed by antibiotics is the natural course. On a Pauline analogy, that seems most apropos.
#34:
Plinx, you said ” … high hopes of being a new province or some other such nonsense …”
Explain to me why a new province would be “some other such nonsense”. Why would you want people who believe they are following the Lord’s will to fail? Aren’t they deserving of prayer for their success?
Sorry Paula … I was referring to #38! Mr. Plinx.
What amazes me is that the Most Reverend thinks there is some condemnation in saying that they are “no longer Episcopalians”. Well, uh, yeah: isn’t that the point?