In a case that pits religious freedom against the right of a defendant to face an accuser in court, a judge here has ordered a Toronto woman to testify without her face-covering niqab at a sexual assault trial.
The Toronto Star reports the case could be precedent-setting because it doesn’t appear there is any Canadian case law on the question of veiled women testifying in court.
In Canada, home to at least 600,000 Muslims, the case will be closely watched, amid fears that veiled Muslim women will be forced to bare their faces.
And so they should. Canada is NOT a Muslim country. These people chose to immigrate to Canada due to not being able to tolerate the violence of their own countries. They left to leave that behind. Why do they insist in continuing to observe the practices of their original countries after having fled to escape those practices. Canada does not discriminate against women. They do not need to wear veils. Muslims who’ve moved to Canada should accept that and allow themselves the freedom of the country they moved to.
I suspect that they wear those veils for religious reasons, and not because of fear.
I have found out something fascinating. When Muslim women pray, they must remove the niqab, if they wear one. The same thing is true about performing the Hajj, the major pilgrimage to Mecca. They must cover their heads to pray and to perform the Hajj, but their faces MAY NOT BE COVERED on those occasions.
I agree with Mugsie on this one. Women in Western countries should follow what is normal practice in those countries. We do not have people without faces walking around on the streets. Conservative clothing and head coverings, no problem. Going around without a face is not acceptable and may be considered threatening. I had this conversation just yesterday with a Muslim woman here in Egypt who wears the headscarf. She said she is suspicious and nervous around a black-shrouded niqab wearer, because she can’t tell who’s in there, or even if it’s a woman.
Cennydd, that’s my point. Their “religious” beliefs are what ruled their countries and allowed for the violence they ran from. They do not need to adhere to those beliefs in Canada. I’m certain many just have never truly been well exposed to Christianity, and don’t understand it. Canada is a country built on a Christian foundation, just like the USA. I believe that if people move there from other countries, they have no right to impose their beliefs on others. In this case, this woman (probably many women) are afraid of letting go of their veils due to fear of repercussions from their husbands. Men are placed on pedestals in the Muslim faith. Women are very timid and won’t express their own opinions with their husbands due to this. They just do their bidding out of fear.
My daughter lives in Brampton, Ontario, Canada. That city is heavily populated with Muslims. My daughter knows several Muslim women personally. She understands how hard it is for them, even in Canada, due to their husbands’ control over them. She went through school with a Muslim girl who is a good friend. She finds it very hard to see what this girl now has to go through since she’s become a wife.
Another example I personally had: When I was still living in Canada, I once hired a woman to babysit my children. She was Muslim, but was very kind. She was good to my children. They liked her. However, one day when I picked them up, the husband was home. He was so condescending to his wife right in front of me. She visibly cowered away from him. It really upset me. I wondered if my children may have already been exposed to this sort of behavior. Due that what I witnessed I could not allow my children to return under this woman’s care, even those she, herself, was kind and loving. What children witness is what they learn. I did not want my children (son & daughter) to learn this very abhorrent behavior.
I agree that often the veiling and retreating behind the niqab is caused by fear. Men put pressure on women to conform. A Muslim wife can be divorced without reason. Refusing to wear the hijab or the niqab could be grounds for divorce; she must be obedient.
There are women who wear it by choice, of course. But the face covering is definitely NOT required by the Qur’an. Opinions differ on the hijab or other hair covering, but not on the face covering.
[i]Canada is NOT a Muslim country.[/i]
Canada may not be a Muslim country but that is quite beside the point. These people are Muslims before they are Canadians in the same way I am Christian before I am American. The secular democracies believe they can run land-based political models with people who carry their country with them wherever they go. This belief will be their undoing.
[blockquote]Of course, it’s possible to be both Christian (or Muslim) and American (or Canadian) simultaneously without one getting in the way of the other.[/blockquote]
That is a blanket assumption that may not hold true in all instances.
My personal preferences aside, the fact is land-based political models are incompatible with people who carry their country with them wherever they go. The US is a land-based political model that is importing ethnic and credal peoples, i.e., nations. Eventually, the US will devolve into its constituent nations.
And so will Canada.
I sincerely hope that Byzantine (comments 10 & 11) is wrong and that unions of territorial states will survive. Such states are the best way I know of to avoid the tribalism of those peoples he calls “nations”. Some food for thought: I, for one, do *not* see the American Civil War as our axial myth. Those who do think it defines us risk inviting a resurgence of tribalism in our democracy. We especially do not want to descend to the level of what an anthropologist friend of mine once called “the semitic ideologies of revenge”.
[i]We especially do not want to descend to the level of what an anthropologist friend of mine once called “the semitic ideologies of revengeâ€.[/i]
Then we had better do some serious and critical thinking about our immigration policies.
Byzantine,
As the character of Stephen Hopkins in the movie version of [i]1776[/i] said (this is from memory): “Well, in all my years I never seen, heard, or smelled a question so damn touchy that it couldn’t be talked about. Hell, I’m for debatin’ anything.”
Hello everyone, I just joined to ask you to please stop thinking about us this way. I am a veiled Muslim woman living in a Muslim country and I can assure you I do not wear the veil out of fear but out of choice and I love it. It is true that some Muslim women are forced to wear it but for most of us it is a choice, I even know women that wear it against the wishes of their family (a big thing over here). Thank you to Cennydd for pointing out we wear it for religious reasons and not through fear. I hope you all have a nice day.
sorry I forgot to say, regarding removing the veil to give evidence. For the woman in question it would be like asking you to give evidence in your underwear, that is what she would feel like so don’t judge her too harshly but you are right Canada is not a Muslim country so she should compromise and ask the judge to remove any un-necessary people from the court and then sit facing only the judge, rather than everyone in the court .. we have to show our faces to have our identity checjked at airports and police stations so it is possible in certain circumstances.