Professor Christopher Seitz of the Anglican Communion Institute noted that the presiding bishop needed to define her terms. If by the “Western heresy” she meant the individualism of the Enlightenment, the priority of the individual conscience as articulated by Kant, or the need for individual certainty in science and history suggested by Lessing, “these are bedrock foundations of TEC liberalism.”
As a matter of history, there is no individualist heresy, the Rev. Ephraim Radner, professor of historical theology at Wycliffe College in Toronto told The Living Church. Jesus calls individuals “by name” and saves them “one by one,” he said, and a catholic theology cannot deny this.
“Her remarks would suggest simple ad hominem arguments against conservative evangelicals, masking as theological incoherence,” Fr. Radner said.
I am glad that ACI weighed in on that comment. I thought it a bizarre comment to throw into an opening General Convention address.
Thanks to Christopher Seitz and Ephraim Radner for calling the pb on both the illogicality (individualism seems to be the banner of TEC liberalism) of what she said and on the faulty theology of the remarks.
Fathers Radner and Sietz: you are super heroes. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KfFx_UZ5ZU] Shazam![/url]
Professor Christopher Seitz of the Anglican Communion Institute noted that the presiding bishop needed to define her terms. If by the “Western heresy†she meant the individualism of the Enlightenment, the priority of the individual conscience as articulated by Kant, or the need for individual certainty in science and history suggested by Lessing, “these are bedrock foundations of TEC liberalism.â€
This is really ridiculous. They complain of ad hominem attacks on evangelicals, and then they try to pounce on a simple comment with academic terms. Get over yourselves gentlemen.
#4 Not so. This was a deliberate attack on all who do not subscribe to pluriform truth and are therefore trouble makers. I guess the Western heresy stands in contrast to Eastern religious truths.
A simple comment that called two millennia of Christianity a heresy. I guess we’re not supposed to notice simple comments like that. I preferred the elegy on the pig, of course.
Apologies for the snark in that post. But it was no “simple comment.”
Pb
There is no question that her statement was about corporate election and not philosophy. The ‘academics’ at ACI should know this. Of course, they may have been quoted incorrectly since it is a Living Church article.
[blockquote]Another bishop, who asked not to be named, described Bishop Jefferts Schori’s view of salvation as being difficult to reconcile with the vows taken at baptism and Paul’s statement on confession (Romans 10:8-10).[/blockquote]
Unnamed bishop: For Pete’s sake (pun intended!), stand up and play the man.
Go get ’em Chris+ and Ephraim+! As I said on another thread, there is great opportunity here for differentiation. I hope that it is not wasted. Was there any advanced planning? The Integrity folks certainly were scheming for quite a while.
If she is regularly misunderstood and has to have her statements explained, then we have a leadership problem. I thought she was expressing her own personal theology.
8. Brian from T19 wrote:
[blockquote]There is no question that her statement was about corporate election….[/blockquote]
“Corporate election”? Now there’s an interesting bit of Calvin turned on its head.
I think everyone present, not to mention the rest of the world, understood it as a fully intentional, nasty attack on evangelicals. Likewise the put down of Mississippi.
The PB is no lady.
I believe she is expressing the theology of the New Perspectives on Paul movement. In addition the idea of corporate salvation vs individual salvation has traditionally been a Catholic/Orthodox vs. Protestant distinction. The RCs and the Orthodox believe in the idea od salvation through Christ through the Church. The Protestants individualized it.
Nonsense, Brian. What the Catholic Tradition could be said to teach is that there is no salvation outside the Church. We can be sure that isn’t what Schori was drawing upon, because she’s said time and time again that people who aren’t even Christians are following paths just as valid as the one being followed by those who are – i.e., Christianity is simply a cultural artifact outside of which there certainly is salvation, if that concept meant anything, which it doesn’t, because we’re all glorious as we are. What’s more, she isn’t speaking from within a Catholic body that would qualify as the “Church” in any case. She is a Protestant. So, you’re simply wrong. You’re trying to impute some form of logic to a remark that served only to be a cheap shot at Schori’s opponents, one that managed to make her look unintelligent and petty at the same time.
I didn’t read or hear her remarks, so I’m lacking understanding as to how this reflects on people from Mississippi. However, I think she’s reflecting secular culture, politics, etc. It sounds to me like a utopian statement on collectivism. Just my 2 cents.
The crisis of this moment has several parts, and like Episcopalians, particularly ones in Mississippi, they’re all related.
Full text here:
http://www.americananglican.org/presiding-bishop-s-opening-address/
Did not someone confront her when she was in Mississippi?
Facially, I view her comment as a political attack on the organizational efforts of groups such as the FCA. Substantively, I view it as an attack on the beliefs of both traditional catholics and evangelicals. Given prior statements and actions, I heartily concur with the characterization of incoherence. See also Captain Yips.
If the faith is drained of meaning to permit a “big box” gnosis, why on earth should anyone be concerned about her notions of heresy?
🙄
#12 You think the PB is using anything that flows from the mind of Bishop Wright! (FWIW on the other hand he is genuinely friends with some of the ACI folks). In classical orthodoxy it is of course both/and – both the lost sheep and the saved flock.
Of course, she’s just sticking it to the evangelicals – it encourages her own constituency. Can anyone lay odds on whether this is the first public talk/sermon of her entire clerical career in which she has named anything as a heresy.
Apparently, something took place in Miss? What is she referring to? I don’t mean to be obtuse.
Shumanbean
It is a joke about Mississippi-one that is used for West Virginia and other States. People in ______________ are all related. It implies inbreeding. It was a joke.
#18 If the BP was trying to do something N.T. Wright-ish she failed.
“Second, I must stress again that the doctrine of justification by faith is not what Paul means by ‘the gospel’. It is [i] implied [/i] by the gospel; when the gospel is proclaimed, people come to faith and so are regarded by God as members of his people. But ‘the gospel’ is not an account of how people get saved. It is, as we saw in an early chapter, the proclamation of the lordship of Jesus Christ. If we could only gt that clear in current debates, a lot of other false antitheses, not least in thinking about the mission of the church, would quietly unravel before our eyes. Let us be quite clear. ‘The gospel’ is the announcement of Jesus’ lordship, which works with power to bring people into the family of Abraham, now redefined around Jesus Christ and characterized solely by faith in him. ‘Justification’ is the doctrine which insists that all those who have this faith belong as full members of this family, on this basis and no other.†[u] What Saint Paul Really Said… [/u] page 133
Also #19 I would like to know what the slam on Miss is all about too.
Brian,
Yeah, I finally got it. It’s just that I couldn’t see it, because it was so unexpected. At any rate, some people just can’t tell jokes.
If there is only corporate salvation, does that imply that there is also only corporate damnation? If so, you orthodox folks still in TEC — yes, BOTH of you — better flee now!
All concerned about Mississippi: According to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Diocese_of_Mississippi] Wikipedia[/url] you can see that Bishops 5, 7 and 9 from Mississippi are in fact, grandfather, father and son in family relationship. I’m guessing this reality is emblematic of the TEC in Mississippi. Clearly a joke that — I think — Mississippians would understand as a joke.