What is lamentable is the lack of politeness that has invaded some of these town hall meetings. The problem, apart from the threat of violence inherent in the intensity of expression and the fact that some people have come to meeting places armed, is the fact that loud, boorish speech is an enemy of the civil discourse that a serious subject like health care deserves.
Some of what is being said is a reflection of the public’s general discontent in a range of painful areas, most of which is fully understandable. There is unemployment, mortgage foreclosures, credit-card default and bankers enriched by bailouts. People are concerned about the cost of the proposed health-care programs, fearing they could increase the ballooning national debt, to be paid by higher taxes or increased debt passed along to descendants. They don’t like the Iraq war dragging on or the rising cost in lives and money of the Afghanistan war. They also do not like the fact that the cost of health care continues to rise.
Congress is a target of people’s wrath in part because of its own misdeeds….
I’m told that at after of the Western Pennsylvania “Town Halls” with Senator Specter he was greeted with chants from the sidewalk, “Dirty lying Jew,” as he left the building. I personally have many qualms about the health care/insurance reform proposals, but I also agree that the debate as its playing out seems to bring out a good deal of the worst in many of us.
Bruce Robison
I’m sorry but this is a revolution and impolite things are said and done during a revolution. Government has cheated, lied and stolen the wealth and blood of the American people and to think that Americans are going to react to this with polite, calm language is just ridiculous. Freedom is at stake here and when government mounts a massive campaign to turn America into a socialist/communist country, the people must and should react in the strongest way necessary. It’s past the stage of calm debate.
BMR+, told by whom? With all the electronics around, no one caught that on tape? Sounds about as genuine to me as Nancy Pelosi saying the protesters were “carrying swastikas” when in fact there was ONE sign which had a swastika with a red X through it (meaning, “No Nazi Style Healthcare”).
Re the overall volume and tone of the citizenry, it’s really amazing to me that when leftists shout down others — “Bush lied, people died,” “No war for oil,” “9/11 was an inside job” — this is praised as “democracy in action.” I believe the phrase was “dissent is the highest form of patriotism”? Now suddenly it’s “astroturfing,” fake, “bused” protesters (even though conservatives are too busy actually working and paying the taxes that feed all the looters and moochers in our society to be bused out to fake protests), etc., etc., etc.
This is why I have zero respect for the media and the Democrat Party.
#1, if such a thing was indeed said, of course it’s unacceptable. I read extensively among mainstream conservative sources, and there is no hint in those places, and I believe among the large majority of people turning out to protest this plan, of anything other than opposition to what is being proposed and frustration with the attempt to push this through Congress on the fast track. It’s the attempt to ram this through, plus the President’s unfortunate comments telling opponents to stay out of the debate, which have created the situation confronting members of Congress.
I remember well Democratic demagoging any time the Republicans tried to bring some sanity to Social Security and Medicare. “The Republicans are going to throw the Old Folks out!” The Democrats beat up the Republicans so badly they quit trying. I am quite happy to see the Democrats on the receiving end of the lies they have told over the years.
I would also like to get this out of our system and try to honestly determine the facts and focus on solving the problem. But I am not optimistic.
#3, the story was told to me this morning by a parishioner who had attended the meeting in Kittaning. I wasn’t there, but I accept that what my parishioner heard, she thought she heard. Especially since it made such an impression upon her. It’s possible of course that she misheard it. In any event, I am myself troubled by a good deal of the proposal that has rolled forward in congress. I believe we have some specific problems right now in the system: the costs of treatment for the uninsured and underinsured are distributed inequitably among those who carry insurance and the taxpayer, for one, and since nobody I’ve heard suggests that hospital emergency rooms should dump sick, uninsured patients onto the sidewalk to die, we do have to figure out how get that paid for. Likewise, I think, there needs to be a bit more regulation of the medical insurance industry, to prevent the sale of worthless policies, to develop reasonable transparency, etc. And, finally, it would make sense for the government to take some steps to try to reduce the costs of health care. I think tort reform is essential. Throwing some of our grandchildren’s stimulus dollars into a project to improve medical records management is also at least a reasonable idea. I’d like to see a break in the stranglehold the AMA has over the accreditation of medical schools. Every well-qualified person who wants to study medicine should have the opportunity to do so, and if that means we need to build some more excellent medical schools, let’s do that. The regulation of that system works to keep the cost of medical education and then also the compensation of physicians significantly higher than would be the case in a freer market.
Bruce Robison
At least they let Specter speak – unlike some of those on the “progressive” side who throw things at conservative speakers or invade the stage and threaten the speaker. If anyone had been shouting that at Specter, it is obviously wrong, but until there is independent outside sources on that, it could well be incorrect info. I haven’t seen it reported anywhere and I’m keeping up pretty well with the town hall debates.
If these public servants could be trusted to conduct town hall meetings that weren’t stage-managed farces, then some valid objection could be raised to the boisterous crowds. But as we’ve recently seen at some Democratic representatives’ convocations lately, if they aren’t confronted with opposing views and hostile questions, they will stack the room with compliant stooges and sympathetic hangers-on to give the impression of consensus.
That said, I’m no Specter fan and am certainly not happy with his current stand on health care collectivization, but if I’d hear someone call him what #1 claims, that someone would find himself dragged from the room.
[blockquote]when government mounts a massive campaign to turn America into a socialist/communist country, the people must and should react in the strongest way necessary[/blockquote]
It took only two posts to confirm the point being made by the article, with almost every single subsequent comment simply underlining it.
[blockquote]Members of New Hampshire’s congressional delegation are under fire today from the editorial pages of the conservative New Hampshire Union Leader and the liberal Portsmouth Herald.
At issue is the fact that the Granite State’s representatives, specifically Sen. Jeanne Shaheen and Reps. Paul Hodes and Carol Shea-Porter, are not holding town hall meetings on health care reform with their constituents this August recess but instead partying with liberal bloggers and holding a smattering of so-called tele-town hall meetings—essentially controlled conference calls in which constituents are tellingly kept on “listen only mode.â€[/blockquote] [url=http://www.nowhampshire.com/2009/08/16/delegation-under-fire-for-failing-to-engage-constituents-during-august-recess/]LINK[/url]
I’m sure those tele-townhalls are nice and sedate, which is apparently the only thing praiseworthy these days.
[url=http://patterico.com/2009/08/15/identified-another-front-row-town-hall-attendee-also-member-of-obama-campaign-team/]Tutorial: How to get a front-row seat at Sheila Jackson Lee’s town halls[/url]
Mr. Witt, are you saying the people posting here are boorish and rude? It seems to me that there is a lot of righteous anger and indignation being expressed. Even the author of the article says “Some of what is being said is a reflection of the public’s general discontent in a range of painful areas, most of which is fully understandable.” Can you not be a little more charitable and try to understand that people who have posted may have some legitimate points?
Wait…I remember my co-workers calling President Bush “Bushler”, equating him with Hitler. Gosh, where oh where were these calls for civility then? Personally, I think the Nazi comparison thing is tired and in this case it isn’t particularly accurate. Perhaps instead of swastikas with bars across them, folks should use the hammer and sickle emblem with a bar across it.
No Soviet style health care (or anything else for that matter) for us!!! It doesn’t work.
interesting post here
[blockquote]Mr. Witt, are you saying the people posting here are boorish and rude? It seems to me that there is a lot of righteous anger and indignation being expressed.[/blockquote]
Is it boorish and rude to bear false witness. I am sorry. It is either delusional or lying to say that there is a “a massive campaign to turn America into a socialist/communist country.” That is simply untrue, and if commenters should know better to make such outlandish claims. It is in no way helpful to a constructive solutions to the nation’s current health insurance problems, which are genuine.
I speak as someone who had to leave a job and go into significant debt because the health plan provided by my father’s insurance simply ran out after an arbitrary ninety days of hospitalization. People should not be forced to choose between health care and bankruptcy. Fortunately, I was able to assist my mother in providing home care for my father after he had to leave the hospital. I cannot imagine how my mother would have cared for him if I had not been available. If preventing the kinds of things that happened to my parents is “socialism,” then count me in.
Indeed, the current corporatist push by the administration has us more on the path of Peronist Argentina. That hasn’t worked out well.
William Witt, I am aware of what the problems in health care are, and believe me, if I thought the current proposals would actually solve them, I would be with you. I don’t see, thought, that what is being proposed would make what happened to your father any less likely. Cost controls lead inevitably to rationing and scarcity, and so might make your father’s situation a more frequent happening. Indeed, the House bill contains provisions for working towards deciding what is effective care and prohibiting or restricting care for persons deemed terminal or too old to benefit from treatment.
William Witt, what you say is true enough on one level, but I suspect the real problem lies elsewhere, namely that very large numbers of Americans have reached that straw-on-the-camel’s-back point; that is, they have listened and read and listened (as I have) and they do not understand What The Hell Is Going On on a dozen complex fronts which have, in fact, a significant effect on their general well-being.
You havelistened and read about the health care conundrum,yes? And how much of it do you understand? Are you any wiser now than last year? Or worse off? Have the dozens of experts and Talking Heads enlightened you? Of has the darkness increased? Do you rfeally believe that the President and the Congress will have a clear, fair, rational plan to submit to the people – one that will not cost several kjillion tax-increase dollars? Do you have a real confidence that you and your will have any voice in what happens to you in this matter? Can you not name a dozen problems that are as baffling, as complex, as unclear and as powerful in their effects as health care?
At what point do you lose your cool because you are helpless, baffled, harried, frightened, in concert with very large numbers of your fellow Americans? I suspect much of the surly incivility is the result of simple desperation. There is a hell nor are we out of it. I would not badger Specter, but he made NOTHING clear, and his haplessness is not one whit different from all the experts who have filled the air with a miasma nothing will clear. This is made MUCH worse because vast numbers trusted President Obama to Make Things Clear and Straightforward, and these numbers no feel – well, not betrayed, because betrayal can be clear – but caught in a quicksand of marshmallow, snakeoild and smooth glib talk, (however sincere).
Larry
[Comment deleted by Elf]
For a Christian, the response that the other side did it to our guy, is simply not a good reason. Two wrongs don’t make a right. That said, Congress has overreached, they have sped to a conclusion before the debate was even held. That is the problem. No sane person can disagree that health care costs and coverage in this country need a serious reform. The debate should, and could be, about the best way to do that if Congress had been in a downhill rush to throw something together and down our throats before an arbitrary August deadline.
They did that, of course, because they didn’t want the debate, didn’t want the drama and instead, are getting both, in spades. Debate is good, ferocious debate, even better, but rudeness and boorish behavior (not letting others, or even the Congress representatives speak) is simply not acceptable.
You’re right, Jim of Lapeer, two wrongs do not make a right – but I guess I bring it up because of the absolute transparent media hypocrisy in ignoring, downplaying, or agreeing with protests, speech, and nasty images directed towards conservatives and the now “horrified” media reports currently covering protests and debate against the liberals. The blatant double-standard is part of what’s driving this frustration.
There is no “massive campaign to turn America into a socialist/communist country”???
There most certainly is. The governors that wanted to not accept all the stimulus money knew that the demand for “free” money wouldn’t end when the initially allotted [i]massive[/i] amount of money ran out. The healthcare “reform” by itself should be considered a [i]massive[/i] campaign. Entitlement programs never end. The banks and GM takeovers/bailouts are [i]massive[/i].
[blockquote]Entitlement programs never end. The banks and GM takeovers/bailouts are massive.[/blockquote]
Sorry, this is not socialism. Socialism is where workers own the means of production.
This is welfare capitalism of the American variety. In most Western capistalis societies, welfare goes to help the least fortunate, but we did away with that in the Welfare Reform bill of the 1990’s. In the USA, welfare goes to those at the top. It has been this way from time immemorial, with companies like Boeing and McDonnell Douglas being prime recipients. Under George Bush, Sr., it was the Savings and Loans. Today, it is the banks. Under both Bush’s the cause of the crisis was irresponsible businesses doing what businesses doing when no one is watching the store.
As I heard Alan Greenspan say in an interview last night (paraphrasing), this is what happens under capitalism because people are inherently selfish and short-sighted. It has happened before. It will happen again. But he wouldn’t want it any other way because that’s what capitalism is all about.
Enjoy. It’s the American way.
[blockquote]Sorry, this is not socialism. Socialism is where workers own the means of production.[/blockquote]
True, technically. It’s more along the lines of the Italian Corporate State or, as I pointed out above, Peronist Argentina.
[blockquote]Sorry, this is not socialism. Socialism is where workers own the means of production.
[/blockquote]
You mean like the government and worker’s unions taking control & ownership over vast industrial enterprises while dismissing prior claims of bondholders through government fiat?
[b]socialism[/b] (sÅ’shÉ™-lÄz’É™m) An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.