Rom 14:5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
” ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “[d] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
Jesus died for people who consume too. Shouldn’t they have a chance at the gospel?
Church as consumer-driven entertainment. No thanks! When they get tired of the latest bands and music videos, they’ll come looking for the REAL thing — the WORD, and it hasn’t changed for about 2,000 years.
Looking at the [url=http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=MzrZIdLEFS3HwgX7xJtC2Q_3d_3d]nomination form[/url], it seems that the criteria for “innovation” range from effective use of modern communications like blogs and web sites, to active and effective church planting.
Churches using to web to spread the Gospel through Vblogs and weblogs as well as planting new churches seems like a good thing to me. I’m looking forward to learning more.
I know, old news, but some innovations just shouldn’t happen.
Several have asked about the existence of a [b]fire engine baptistry that is designed to shoot confetti out of cannons when a child is baptized.[/b] Yes, this actually does exist. You can see it at First Baptist Church, Springdale, Arkansas. The Founders Journal reported on this back in 2000. Following are comments taken from the news items in the Fall 2000 issue (#42) of the journal.
Christianity Today (June 8, 2000) and other news sources have reported on what appears to be a new trend in some large evangelical churches. First Baptist Church in Springdale, Arkansas hired a well-known former Disney World designer of children’s amusement rides to design two “high tech sets” for elementary age worship areas: Toon Town for first-through third-graders, and Planet 45 for fourth- and fifth-graders. The fully animated cartoon town has 26-foot-tall buildings. The rationale behind the $270,000 project is summed up by the church’s children’s minister: “Putting a talking head in front of kids for an hour doesn’t work ….This is a visual generation. We need to use technology to the max.” That includes a special baptistry which is built around a fire engine. When a child is baptized, the sirens sound and confetti is fired out of cannons.
When kids enter the rooms, a music video is playing on a giant screen in front, and they can amuse themselves at a row of nonviolent video game screens along walls. Once the service starts, “it’s 90 minutes of mostly frenetic activity, akin to a live television variety show from the 1950s. In Toon Town, buzzers and bells sound, lights flash from the ceiling and from car headlights on the set, bubbles come out the top of a giant bucket and fill the room, confetti streamers squirt out onto the first few rows, and mist is sprayed onto the crowd.” According to the designer, Bruce Barry, “It’s just like going on a ride at Disney World.”
I only know a few of these churches, and while they are not for me, at the end of the day they are doing their job and bringing people to Christ who may have never darkened the door of our liturgically-correct churches.
If confetti, coffee shops, laser shows or whatever bring folks to Christ, who am I to judge?
Why is it that so many of you on this thread always seem to assume that music stopped in the 1700’s? First, the traditionalists in the Anglican Church in the 1700 and 1800’s were aghast at the modern innovations of the Wesleys and Watt, etc. Second, it is entirely possible to worship God without being mauldin and cranky. Try going to an AME or CME church sometime. Finally, so many of you want to refer to the Bible when making comments here–so go read Psalm 150 and report back to the group. There are many worship styles, and no one is requiring any of you to participate; but don’t assume that someone who has joy at singing the name of Jesus is only interested in theatre; not to mention, what in the world is more theatrical than a really high church service, with venerartion of the host, smells, bells, costumes, candles, etc., etc., etc.?
we will see after next Sunday’s debut of the ‘contemporary eucharistic service’ at St. Peter’s.
I’m hoping it will go over well, however, since I hate getting up early on my day off. But for me the real test will be the music — if more songs are “God” centered, YAY! if more songs are “me” centered, boo! And you know me, I won’t be silent about voicing my opinion of “I like the music, but can we have more songs focusing on God, please? “I’m” not important to worship, other than as a participant, God is supposed to be the focus.”
But I don’t want to ‘buy’ trouble ahead of time, and hope they make the right choices.
By the way, I thought it started LAST Sunday (day before yesterday) and walked in on the musicians/choir rehearsal (met Fr. John, too! Nice guy). They certainly sound good, and are a larger group than I expected!
Oh, and David,
I’m not so much against a ‘style’ of music (although I can’t listen to hip-hop nor opera!) as I am against a theology expressed in modern music, e.g., see above message to Philip.
I got my start in choirs singing in a Catholic folk choir — the director taught me how to play guitar (well, hum and strum variety teaching, but it was a start of a life-long love of music)– which I later took over as leader, and I’ve sung in traditional and Charismatic prayer group choirs (one former choir leader taught me how to sight-read music — she was also the choir teacher at a local middle school!).
So I have no problems with ‘style’. Just substance.
libraryjim #16 I agree with you. Too much contemporary Christian music is me-centered. It’s all about [i]my relationship with Jesus[/i]. And while I sincerely hope that we/they [i]have[/i] a relationship with Jesus, the theology of the music stops there. It says little about mission, it says little about caring for the poor, it says little about the glory of God.
While it is certainly not my cup of tea, I won’t disparage the use of bands, rock music, light shows, whatever, [i]if the theology is sound and they help attract people to our Lord and to the blessings of God[/i].
38As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. 40But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”
41″Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42but only one thing is needed.[f] Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Worshipping Jesus is never a waste and it is the better part.
The worshipping churches that I know are more mission centered than the others.
But who is the music focused on, RickW? If “Me” then the focus is way off (e.g., “Open the Eyes of My Heart” is not a plea in humbleness to see God’s glory, but a demand from God out of selfish desire!)
Worship music needs to be focused on God Himself, not us, not our reaction to God, but on God. Occasionally our reaction comes into it (“We Bow Down” by Twila Paris is a good example of a true worship song), but it should be secondary to praise of God.
(19) that is the oddest thing I’ve heard in a while…
“Open the eyes of my heart” selfish?
why…because you don’t say please?
What about “Give us this day our daily bread”?
The chorus (as you know) is about magnifying God, not self.
True, this song is so old now that it’s cliche and makes me want to run when I hear it in church again…but selfish? It comes from a whole line of “less of me, more of YOU” song writing that swept the late 90’s. Puhleeez.
Now as for Seacoast church, (on the list) they bring hundreds of people to Christ in SC…then later, we (the other churches) get many of their members as they seek more discipleship training and deeper, more traditional worship. Good, Godly folks. They love Jesus. I love them.
palmetto,
nope, I stand by my evaluation. It’s a very selfish demand for God to do something for me first and then I’ll worship Him. Frankly, I just don’t care for that type of theology.
It’s backwards!
What if God doesn’t ‘open the eyes of my heart’? Does that mean the singer won’t sing “Holy holy holy”?
Frankly, I would rather have the chorus first, Let’s sing the Holy holy holy’s and then if God deigns to open the eyes of our hearts, so be it, if not, let’s keep singing the praise anyway!
God desires our praise first. Our feelings and desires should be subjugated to His will.
And where does ‘give us this day our daily bread’ fit into the WHOLE of the Lord’s Prayer? After the praise.
Our father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
[i]then[/i]
give us this day our daily bread
it doesn’t come first as a requirement of our praising God ([i]Hallowed be thy name[/i]) but after the praise.
I looked over my last post and thought, I hope they don’t think I don’t know the Lord’s Prayer. I cut it to make the point, but the point would probably have been made stronger if I quoted the entire first part:
[b]Our Father, which art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
in earth as it is in Heaven. [/b]
[i]then comes the petitions:[/i]
[b]Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
But deliver us from evil. [/b]
[i]and the ‘Protestant’ version (the Catholic church separates this part in the Mass) ends with praise again:[/i]
[b]For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory,
Now and forever. Amen. [/b]
That (IMO) is the formula the “Praise Songs” should be following: praise first, then petitions/prayer/response if included, then praise again.
You are Lord of creation
And Lord of my life
Lord of the land and the sea
You were Lord of the heavens
Before there was time
Lord of all lords You will be
[i]then comes our response:[/i]
We bow down
And we worship You Lord
We bow down
And we worship You Lord
We bow down
And we worship You Lord
Lord of all lords You will be
[i]now back to praise[/i]
You are King of creation
And King of the heavens
Before there was time
And King of all kings You will be
[i]and once again our response[/i]
We bow down
And we crown You the King
We bow down
And we crown You the King
We bow down
And we crown You the King
King of all kings You will be
[i]the focus is entirely on God. Even our response is praise and not petition, focused on who God is, not really what we do. More songs like this one, please![/i]
[i]sigh[/i] my cut and paste skills are deteriorating.
You are King of creation
and king of my life
King of the land and the sea
you were King of the heavens
Before there was time
And King of all kings You will be
Check out propers 14,18,19, (and many others)
In baptism we ask for God’s blessing, covering and indwelling so that we might proceed to live the life He has set out for us…why is the order a problem? The fact that you come asking to be “opened” means that you are being led in the first place…so that the Lord is already active… preveniently…
as He has caused us to come together in this forum…
Peace.
There is coming in humbleness (prayer of humble access?) and coming in arrogance:
Lord I thank you that I am not like this publican!
vs.
Lord have mercy on me a sinner!
Both came to the temple, only one went away blessed.
attitude makes all the difference. And the order does make a difference, too. There is actually nothing wrong with many of the “Jesus and Me” or “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs — if done at church camp. But not in worship at service. then it should be God first, us last, with the focus on GOD not US.
There is one that starts:
I love you lord, and I lift my heart
to worship you – oh my soul – rejoice!
Take joy my king, in what you hear
let it be a sweet, sweet song in your ear.
Do you hear the difference in the lyrics? Even though it’s filled with “I”, the focus is on GOD.
Is being “innovative” necessarily a good thing for a church to be?
I don’t think church as a consumer item is a good thing.
Rom 14:5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
” ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “[d] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
Jesus died for people who consume too. Shouldn’t they have a chance at the gospel?
Church as consumer-driven entertainment. No thanks! When they get tired of the latest bands and music videos, they’ll come looking for the REAL thing — the WORD, and it hasn’t changed for about 2,000 years.
Looking at the [url=http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=MzrZIdLEFS3HwgX7xJtC2Q_3d_3d]nomination form[/url], it seems that the criteria for “innovation” range from effective use of modern communications like blogs and web sites, to active and effective church planting.
Churches using to web to spread the Gospel through Vblogs and weblogs as well as planting new churches seems like a good thing to me. I’m looking forward to learning more.
I know, old news, but some innovations just shouldn’t happen.
Several have asked about the existence of a [b]fire engine baptistry that is designed to shoot confetti out of cannons when a child is baptized.[/b] Yes, this actually does exist. You can see it at First Baptist Church, Springdale, Arkansas. The Founders Journal reported on this back in 2000. Following are comments taken from the news items in the Fall 2000 issue (#42) of the journal.
Christianity Today (June 8, 2000) and other news sources have reported on what appears to be a new trend in some large evangelical churches. First Baptist Church in Springdale, Arkansas hired a well-known former Disney World designer of children’s amusement rides to design two “high tech sets” for elementary age worship areas: Toon Town for first-through third-graders, and Planet 45 for fourth- and fifth-graders. The fully animated cartoon town has 26-foot-tall buildings. The rationale behind the $270,000 project is summed up by the church’s children’s minister: “Putting a talking head in front of kids for an hour doesn’t work ….This is a visual generation. We need to use technology to the max.” That includes a special baptistry which is built around a fire engine. When a child is baptized, the sirens sound and confetti is fired out of cannons.
When kids enter the rooms, a music video is playing on a giant screen in front, and they can amuse themselves at a row of nonviolent video game screens along walls. Once the service starts, “it’s 90 minutes of mostly frenetic activity, akin to a live television variety show from the 1950s. In Toon Town, buzzers and bells sound, lights flash from the ceiling and from car headlights on the set, bubbles come out the top of a giant bucket and fill the room, confetti streamers squirt out onto the first few rows, and mist is sprayed onto the crowd.” According to the designer, Bruce Barry, “It’s just like going on a ride at Disney World.”
My hope is that St Peter’s Anglican in Tallahassee will make it to America’s Least Innovative Churches list.
But — but — but …
They have left of the Most Prophetic One, The Episcopal Church, which has the New Thing.
I would have nominated these folks: http://www.cantius.org/
I only know a few of these churches, and while they are not for me, at the end of the day they are doing their job and bringing people to Christ who may have never darkened the door of our liturgically-correct churches.
If confetti, coffee shops, laser shows or whatever bring folks to Christ, who am I to judge?
I’m with you, RickW and DietofWorms. There seems to be a lot of folk who would like to make a church in their own image…
[i]There seems to be a lot of folk who would like to make a church in their own image… [/i]
Like Thomas Cranmer?
Why is it that so many of you on this thread always seem to assume that music stopped in the 1700’s? First, the traditionalists in the Anglican Church in the 1700 and 1800’s were aghast at the modern innovations of the Wesleys and Watt, etc. Second, it is entirely possible to worship God without being mauldin and cranky. Try going to an AME or CME church sometime. Finally, so many of you want to refer to the Bible when making comments here–so go read Psalm 150 and report back to the group. There are many worship styles, and no one is requiring any of you to participate; but don’t assume that someone who has joy at singing the name of Jesus is only interested in theatre; not to mention, what in the world is more theatrical than a really high church service, with venerartion of the host, smells, bells, costumes, candles, etc., etc., etc.?
#12 If the shoe fits…
Hey, Philip Bowers,
we will see after next Sunday’s debut of the ‘contemporary eucharistic service’ at St. Peter’s.
I’m hoping it will go over well, however, since I hate getting up early on my day off. But for me the real test will be the music — if more songs are “God” centered, YAY! if more songs are “me” centered, boo! And you know me, I won’t be silent about voicing my opinion of “I like the music, but can we have more songs focusing on God, please? “I’m” not important to worship, other than as a participant, God is supposed to be the focus.”
But I don’t want to ‘buy’ trouble ahead of time, and hope they make the right choices.
By the way, I thought it started LAST Sunday (day before yesterday) and walked in on the musicians/choir rehearsal (met Fr. John, too! Nice guy). They certainly sound good, and are a larger group than I expected!
Jim Elliott
Tallahassee, FL
Oh, and David,
I’m not so much against a ‘style’ of music (although I can’t listen to hip-hop nor opera!) as I am against a theology expressed in modern music, e.g., see above message to Philip.
I got my start in choirs singing in a Catholic folk choir — the director taught me how to play guitar (well, hum and strum variety teaching, but it was a start of a life-long love of music)– which I later took over as leader, and I’ve sung in traditional and Charismatic prayer group choirs (one former choir leader taught me how to sight-read music — she was also the choir teacher at a local middle school!).
So I have no problems with ‘style’. Just substance.
libraryjim #16 I agree with you. Too much contemporary Christian music is me-centered. It’s all about [i]my relationship with Jesus[/i]. And while I sincerely hope that we/they [i]have[/i] a relationship with Jesus, the theology of the music stops there. It says little about mission, it says little about caring for the poor, it says little about the glory of God.
While it is certainly not my cup of tea, I won’t disparage the use of bands, rock music, light shows, whatever, [i]if the theology is sound and they help attract people to our Lord and to the blessings of God[/i].
38As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. 40But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”
41″Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42but only one thing is needed.[f] Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Worshipping Jesus is never a waste and it is the better part.
The worshipping churches that I know are more mission centered than the others.
But who is the music focused on, RickW? If “Me” then the focus is way off (e.g., “Open the Eyes of My Heart” is not a plea in humbleness to see God’s glory, but a demand from God out of selfish desire!)
Worship music needs to be focused on God Himself, not us, not our reaction to God, but on God. Occasionally our reaction comes into it (“We Bow Down” by Twila Paris is a good example of a true worship song), but it should be secondary to praise of God.
(19) that is the oddest thing I’ve heard in a while…
“Open the eyes of my heart” selfish?
why…because you don’t say please?
What about “Give us this day our daily bread”?
The chorus (as you know) is about magnifying God, not self.
True, this song is so old now that it’s cliche and makes me want to run when I hear it in church again…but selfish? It comes from a whole line of “less of me, more of YOU” song writing that swept the late 90’s. Puhleeez.
Now as for Seacoast church, (on the list) they bring hundreds of people to Christ in SC…then later, we (the other churches) get many of their members as they seek more discipleship training and deeper, more traditional worship. Good, Godly folks. They love Jesus. I love them.
palmetto,
nope, I stand by my evaluation. It’s a very selfish demand for God to do something for me first and then I’ll worship Him. Frankly, I just don’t care for that type of theology.
It’s backwards!
What if God doesn’t ‘open the eyes of my heart’? Does that mean the singer won’t sing “Holy holy holy”?
Frankly, I would rather have the chorus first, Let’s sing the Holy holy holy’s and then if God deigns to open the eyes of our hearts, so be it, if not, let’s keep singing the praise anyway!
God desires our praise first. Our feelings and desires should be subjugated to His will.
And where does ‘give us this day our daily bread’ fit into the WHOLE of the Lord’s Prayer? After the praise.
Our father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
[i]then[/i]
give us this day our daily bread
it doesn’t come first as a requirement of our praising God ([i]Hallowed be thy name[/i]) but after the praise.
I looked over my last post and thought, I hope they don’t think I don’t know the Lord’s Prayer. I cut it to make the point, but the point would probably have been made stronger if I quoted the entire first part:
[b]Our Father, which art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
in earth as it is in Heaven. [/b]
[i]then comes the petitions:[/i]
[b]Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
But deliver us from evil. [/b]
[i]and the ‘Protestant’ version (the Catholic church separates this part in the Mass) ends with praise again:[/i]
[b]For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory,
Now and forever. Amen. [/b]
That (IMO) is the formula the “Praise Songs” should be following: praise first, then petitions/prayer/response if included, then praise again.
We Bow Down,
words and music Twila Paris:
[i]Note: starts with praise][/i]
You are Lord of creation
And Lord of my life
Lord of the land and the sea
You were Lord of the heavens
Before there was time
Lord of all lords You will be
[i]then comes our response:[/i]
We bow down
And we worship You Lord
We bow down
And we worship You Lord
We bow down
And we worship You Lord
Lord of all lords You will be
[i]now back to praise[/i]
You are King of creation
And King of the heavens
Before there was time
And King of all kings You will be
[i]and once again our response[/i]
We bow down
And we crown You the King
We bow down
And we crown You the King
We bow down
And we crown You the King
King of all kings You will be
[i]the focus is entirely on God. Even our response is praise and not petition, focused on who God is, not really what we do. More songs like this one, please![/i]
[i]sigh[/i] my cut and paste skills are deteriorating.
You are King of creation
and king of my life
King of the land and the sea
you were King of the heavens
Before there was time
And King of all kings You will be
Check out propers 14,18,19, (and many others)
In baptism we ask for God’s blessing, covering and indwelling so that we might proceed to live the life He has set out for us…why is the order a problem? The fact that you come asking to be “opened” means that you are being led in the first place…so that the Lord is already active… preveniently…
as He has caused us to come together in this forum…
Peace.
There is coming in humbleness (prayer of humble access?) and coming in arrogance:
Lord I thank you that I am not like this publican!
vs.
Lord have mercy on me a sinner!
Both came to the temple, only one went away blessed.
attitude makes all the difference. And the order does make a difference, too. There is actually nothing wrong with many of the “Jesus and Me” or “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs — if done at church camp. But not in worship at service. then it should be God first, us last, with the focus on GOD not US.
There is one that starts:
I love you lord, and I lift my heart
to worship you – oh my soul – rejoice!
Take joy my king, in what you hear
let it be a sweet, sweet song in your ear.
Do you hear the difference in the lyrics? Even though it’s filled with “I”, the focus is on GOD.
I think the ACTS pattern of worship also works with praise music:
A = adoration
C = confession
T = thanksgiving
S = supplication