President Barack Obama’s address to Congress on healthcare reform was short on specifics and long on ideas he and his advisers had already floated this year.
The historic speech left some liberals wanting more details and conservatives emboldened to torpedo the president’s top domestic priority.
The big question of the night was how Obama was going to address the public health insurance option, but he largely repeated what he has said for weeks: He supports it, but will sign a bill that does not have it.
Read it all, and, yes, Joe Wilson should apologize–that was uncalled for.
“It is time to stop playing around.” This is offensive. The people objecting to mind-boggling expansion of government are “playing around.”
I have four kids. This is foremost in my mind. Sure the health care system has major flaws. But if we can’t “fix” the system without taking a big loan with our kids being the ones responsible for the debt then we should accept the status quo. Mr. Obama IS lying when he says that it will be paid for by savings in Medicare when the aging population is still increasing at prodigious rates.
I’m not willing to accept the status quo when it’s my children’s lives which are at stake in a corrupt health care system which will deny them coverage for the sake of profit. Get real.
Please stop with the demonizing vocabulary! One cannot “lie” – that is, misrepresent fact deliberately – when making a prediction about what will happen in the future. We may disagree about whether all that Obama says will happen can and/or will actually happen, but our disagreement about the future makes no one a liar.
As for Mr. Wilson’s “uncalled for” boorish behavior, it seems to have gained a certain admiring traction and commentary among the Limbaugh-istas, Beck-ites, and the other screaming loonies of the right.
President B.O. was also lying when he said that the new proposals wouldn’t end up paying for health care for illegal migrants (just as current law requires us to pay for their health care). Representative Joe Wilson was wrong to let his emotions get the better of him and yell out, during the speech, that the President was lying though. It was bad form. From what I read last night, Rep. Wilson did try to call the President and apologize but was stopped at Rahm Emanuel’s level. He offered his apology through Mr. Emanuel.
Then again, Mr. Obama should not have felt so at ease lying to us and the congress about the illegal migrants getting health care, among other things.
Dan et. al. – lets keep the discussion on the speech and specifics. Dan, your last comment is no different than Mr. Wilson’s, so look to your glass house. Now, on topic – the concern about this program is what exactly is going to be covered and how this is going to be paid for? One area proposed for federal cost savings will be cuts in Medicare – I don’t think that AARP and other senior groups are going to stand for defacto rationing based on cuts in Medicare to shift money and services away from seniors to younger/uninsured people. Also, do any of the House or Senate bills specifically exclude undocumented workers by requiring proof of citizenship or forcing ER’s to deny them services?
[blockquote]As for Mr. Wilson’s “uncalled for†boorish behavior, it seems to have gained a certain admiring traction and commentary among the Limbaugh-istas, Beck-ites, and the other screaming loonies of the right. [/blockquote]
You mean like these “loonies of the right?” [url=http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275877.html]LINK[/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KvX8YHzMLQ&feature=related]LINK[/url]
Sauce for the goose, amigo. How many standards are we working with again?
Oh, Dan, have you forgotten the Democrat leadership booing President Bush during the State of the Union Address?
Or how about the Democrat Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid calling President Bush a liar?
[blockquote]MR. RUSSERT: When the president talked about Yucca Mountain and moving the nation’s nuclear waste there, you were very, very, very strong in your words. You said, “President Bush is a liar. He betrayed Nevada and he betrayed the country.”
Is that rhetoric appropriate?
SEN. REID: I don’t know if that rhetoric is appropriate. That’s how I feel, and that’s how I felt.
(Source: “NBC NEWS’ MEET THE PRESS.” Sun., Dec . 5, 2004)[/blockquote]
#4 …..As a member of the “loonie right”, ie, a conservative American with grandchildren who are in danger of growing up in a socialistic, communistic America, you bet I am going to speak out, and with whatever intensity is required to get elected officials to realize they better think real darn carefully on how they decide to vote on this obamanation! I am not ready to give up on the freedoms our founding fathers fought for, not by a long shot!
An outrageously rude and emotionally-unrestrained response to President Obama’s assertion about illegal immigrants and healthcare.
I’m appalled. Is this where our country is headed? Rudeness? Emotion-laden public responses to public assertions from our President in the middle of his speech to the nation?
I have searched to find Joe Wilson’s campaign website for contributions to his campaign — does anyone know where that is, as I haven’t been able to find it.
A bit of booing and heckling seems to me a rather healthy thing. A great deal of it goes on in the House of Commons, and most other legislatures. American democracy would be stronger if there were real debate in the legislature instead of performing to empty benches and C-SPAN cameras.
Of course, the Queen does not get that treatment. But I don’t think that yelling at an elected President hard-selling his agenda is the sin against the Holy Ghost.
What is really inappropriate is booing and jeering at purely ceremonial occasions, such as when President Bush was jeered at during Obama’s inauguration.
You mean other than this link?
Sarah, [url=https://www.completecampaigns.com/public.asp?name=Wilson&page=2]here[/url] you go. Via Lucianne.com, of course.
I personally have no problem with heckling. If Democrats had been more aggressive about pointing out lies in the last administration maybe we would not have had to spend a trillion dollars dollars on a war for which we have nothing to show except thousands of dead Americans and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis.
That said, Wilson is wrong in this instance. The house bill clearly excludes illegal immigrants from coverage. The problem is that hospitals emergency rooms are forced to treat illegals, which forces all of us to pay for them any way. But none of the bills propose insurance for illegals, which is as Obama said. How we deal with sick illegals is another issue, which I am unsure of how to solve short of simply letting them die.
“I personaly have no problem with heckling, so long as you heckle the other side, and leave my guys alone.” Pshaw.
#13…you need to look at this proposed legislation while looking ahead. The status quo is not what this bill is written for. The next step will be illegal ammensty, 12-15M illegals will be made legal and then get all the govt plan benefits. And beyond that issue, the illegals will still go to the emergency rooms like they do today and we will continue to pay for them, so the President in fact LIED.
If the President wants to prove me wrong, then insert language in any bill that says “no illegals will be covered by government healthcare”.
You’ll never see that.
#14 if that was directed to me, Obama is not my guy. I am an independent. As I said, I have no problem with Republicans or Democrats heckling, so long as they are do so honestlyand have their facts straight. Maybe Mr. Wilson thought he was being honest, I don’t know. But in this instance he was wrong. Obama was not telling a lie. The pending bills exclude illegals from coverage.
#15 As a Republican Representative agreed on CSPAN this morning, the house bill has that language in it. It does not cover illegals. I cannot address the issue of what will happen if illegals become legal. I assume they would be treated as any other American. I am firmly opposed to amnesty for illegals.
That said I have no idea of what to do about illegals comming to the emergency room. I think that has to be a separate debate.
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
#17….I will give you a preview of an issue that will come up regarding illegals. What to do about them using emergency rooms and any other social services they are not entitled to? Well you charge them for that. How to do that? Stay tuned, that will be revealed.
” The problem is that hospitals emergency rooms are forced to treat illegals, which forces all of us to pay for them any way. ”
All one needs to do is to force hospitals to use e-verify in the emergency rooms. Folks whose social security numbers don’t check out, get care, but have an automatic detention in the local police station or are manacled to their beds (as happens when felons from the county jail are brought to the ER). Folks who have made a mistake go home. Those who are illegal are deported as soon as they are medically stable.
If Obama’s bill contains this then he would not be LYING by saying he will not be covering illegals. If it does not contain such language then yes, illegals (and plain old deadbeats who give a false SSN) are covered by cross subsidies as they have always been covered under the present system.
Sure, Dan Crawford #4 – just like Van Jones’ delusional ravings have gained a certain admiring traction and commentary among the Olbermann-istas, Kos-ites, and the other screaming loonies of the Left. Of course, admiring this kind of pluck – what Van Jones-types call “speaking truth to power” when the shoe, or, rather, the burning American flag, is on the other foot – is one thing, and admiring fool conspiracy theories my 4-year-old is smart enough to see through is another, right?
#8 – hey Captain Deacon Warren. I’ve been wondering when those commie socialists are about to take over, but apparently [url=http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/09/09/top-u-s-socialist-says-barack-obama-is-not-one-of-them/]they don’t think he’s one of them.[/url]
Mr Wilson has plenty of reasons for his little outburst. About 240,000 from health care professionals. About 86,000 from drug companies. About 73,000 from insurance companies. And about 68,000 from hospitals and nursing homes.
And he has a history of outbursts that are bascially either just plain wrong or purely inflammatory. Just ask Rep. Filner.
As for the “lie”
“SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE,” which says that “[e]xcept as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.” However, the bill does explicitly say that illegal immigrants can’t get any government money to pay for health care. Page 143 states: “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.” And as we’ve said before, current law prohibits illegal immigrants from participating in government health care programs. – source = Factcheck.org
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
Mike L, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the law also says there aren’t supposed to be any illegal immigrants here in the first place. What the law says is irrelevant in the absence of a strong verification mechanism – which, by the way, was proposed by the party that doesn’t have any ideas and voted down in committee by the party that’s eager for bipartisan input. But maybe you just forgot to add that inconvenient fact on before you pressed “submit?”
Back to my original question regarding does the bill explicitly exclude undocumented workers and what about provisions for ER’s to be able to deny treatment. Even though the bill has that language in it with regards to those not lawfully in the US, there does not seem to be any “teeth” in it. Employers today are not supposed to hire anyone here illegally, but we all know that happens, else why the 12 – 15 million undocumented? Those working with fake SS #’s will be able to continue to get employee sponsored health care, and would most likely be able to get any sort of “public option” if we end up with that, unless you have to show proof of citizenship beyond a SS #.
Also, ER’s cannot exclude anyone from treatment, and under this bill, it appears that would continue. The issue of amnesty aside, we cannot accurately estimate the potential cost of the legislation without taking this into account. Before getting flamed, I am in favor of amnesty. Please, gentle commenters, please do not take the discussion off topic regarding the merits of amnesty or not, undocumented workers in general, etc.
John Wilkins – are you sure you want to go there?
As for the issue of the illegal immigrants not being covered, explain please why the dems defeated an amendment that specifically excluded coverage for illegals? We want even go into the part of the bill that prohibits asking if they are illegals. Oh and iIn case you are wondering, same question for abortion.
Dan Crawford writes, “I’m not willing to accept the status quo when it’s my children’s lives which are at stake in a corrupt health care system which will deny them coverage for the sake of profit. Get real.”
Saddling our kids with the costs of fixing our problems is unconscionable. I am fully aware of the brokeness of the “status quo.”
[blockquote] Over the next 25 years, the share of the population aged 65 and older is forecast to increase from 12 percent to 20 percent, and the share of the population that is working in paid employment is forecast to fall from its current 60 percent to 55 percent.[/blockquote]
To say that Obama is going to save money is a lie. To say that he will keep spending at the same level when the numbers of elderly swell is a lie.
No more unfunded entitlements that our kids will have to pay for. Already, servicing the debt is at the cost of Medicaid. It will soon be at the level of Medicare. It will dominant in 30-40 years. We have hosed our kids. See the wikipedia graph, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GAO_Slide.png ]here[/url].
[blockquote]26. Phil wrote:
Mike L, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the law also says there aren’t supposed to be any illegal immigrants here in the first place. What the law says is irrelevant in the absence of a strong verification mechanism – which, by the way, was proposed by the party that doesn’t have any ideas and voted down in committee by the party that’s eager for bipartisan input. But maybe you just forgot to add that inconvenient fact on before you pressed “submit?†[/blockquote]
Really? That’s the best you can come up with? Wow. Maybe you didn’t consider there’s a big difference between doing nothing about illegal immigrants and actively paying for their health care. Yep, if they show up in emergency rooms they are still going to get the care and somehow the hospitals recover the costs. They aren’t going to get subsidized for any insurance as the bill now stands. But, like most of the GOP, you can continue to just make things up if you want.
Illegal immigrants will most certainly receive care under this plan unless there is a specific requirement to check their legal status, which to my understanding is NOT provided for anywhere in this proposal. So I guess Obama is telling the truth the same way Bill Clinton did when he said he “did not have sex with that woman.”
Re Mike L’s comment: [blockquote]Yep, if they show up in emergency rooms they are still going to get the care and somehow the hospitals recover the costs. They aren’t going to get subsidized for any insurance as the bill now stands.[/blockquote]
Who needs insurance when you get the medical treatment anyway?
[blockquote]But, like most of the GOP, you can continue to just make things up if you want.[/blockquote]
Nice way to insult millions of us, Mike.
Mike L, as I said, the law also says there aren’t supposed to be any immigrants here illegally, yet there are tens of millions of them. So, yes, that is the best I can come up with, and I have somewhere between 13-16 million reasons for thinking it’s plenty good enough. Perhaps you can respond substantively and tell me why that isn’t a fair point – especially since, as you also refused to address, Congressional Democrats were given at least two opportunities to place a verification of citizenship requirement in their bill and voted it down.
For me, the big question is that given the tripled deficit and our risky debt levels, shouldn’t we get our economy and fiscal policies in order before we debate increasing government? I’m not encouraged at all by the fiscal approach to TARP and the auto industry, which seems to be that of spend first, think about it later.
Anyway, here is some background:
[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_fact_check]AP Analysis[/url]
[url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html]2005 State of the Union[/url]
(provided for consideration of MSM and congressional treatment, with the disclaimer: two wrongs, and all that)
Mike L, please stick to the facts, and stop the mudslinging – this in no way helps the debate. As others have pointed out, I now know that provisions to “verify” legal immigrant status were removed. The only reason for this would be to allow for undocumented workers to receive heath care covereage, however it’s provided. Also, Medicaid coverage will be reduced to provide the savings from other federal programs required by the bill.
As far as ER’s are concerned, the way ER’s make up the cost is by charging those with insurance $10 per asperin, $20 per sponge used, and so on. ER’s will have to get the money from somewhere, and that means insurance companies and/or federal government payments.
What i find, to my surprise, is the nearly complete lack of reference to Scripture in this debate as Scripture is normally held here to address all manner of modern issues. And yet, one does not see any quote or chapter reference here. What does Scripture say about how we are to treat the foreigner in our midst? I should think the plain Word should guide us.
Scripture is not addressed to governments but individuals. As Christian individuals we work together to provide for the needy personally and corporately.
For what have we gained if we look to the government to do our Christian duty.
The problem isn’t that illegals are covered and shouldn’t be. The problem is that they SHOULD be but aren’t. I’d rather give them affordable healthcare and preventative medicine then have them come into the ER with an uncontrolled infection or inoperatable cancer – or worse, an infectious disease – that could have been treated ealier. Early healthcare assistance for the poor (regardless of citizenship status) makes financial sense, public health sense, and moral sense.
No, Scott what makes sense is controlling our borders in the first place. I am happy to talk about helping those who come to this country legally.
Of course dissent is to be encouraged. But there is a way to do things that the gospel calls for, as well as a what. That test was failed here.
The President has said that he will not address border security until the more important health care reform is taken care of. However, that ignores the fact that the constitution specifically lays on the president the duty of “Providing for the common defense”, but only “Promoting the general welfare” of the United States. It’s not the other way around, except to him.
If the illegal problem were taken care of, I think we would see a sharp decrease in the ‘crisis’ facing health care. I did notice in his speech last night that the number of uninsured in this country has gone DOWN from 47 million to 30 million. Perhaps that was subtracting the illegal aliens who are now to be NOT included in the health care reform bill?
Look, a provision requiring hospitals to check people’s legal status before providing care is not going to work. Doctors and hospitals are not going to participate in that process. If you set that system up illegals will simply not go to the hospital regardless of how sick they become. They will remain in the community, potentially spreading disease and dying. If they are willing to try to cross a desert without water to get here, do you think they will not try to ride out a serious, potentially communicable, disease in their home. You will do nothing but create a dangerous criminal underground trade in pharmaceuticals and witch doctors providing care in alley ways. Not to mention putting health care workers in physical danger. I agree illegals should not be here but they are.. Nontheless the idea we should try to make hospitals and doctors an arm of the Immigration Service is nutty.
No scripture reference? How about Proverbs 22:7: “The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender’s slave.”
We are selling are children into slavery.
#40 Kendall, I know it’s your blog, but you lost me. Can you elaborate?
If you think this debate is solely about healthcare, you are missing a lot here.
Here is a totally damning article on how “well” the government does healthcare from the Wall Street Journal:
[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204884404574362543878647858.html?mod=googlenews_wsj ]Medicare Is No Model for Health Reform [/url]
#44 I think Kendall was talking about Joe Wilson, not dissent on this thread.
Wanna know the funny thing? Senate Democrats are scrambling to [url=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-close-loophole-health-reform/]fix the loophole[/url] that our dear President averred didn’t exist.
Maybe Rep. Wilson had a point, eh?
According to the House of Representatives Research Arm illegals can recieve health care under HR3200 (news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?… ) I don’t know if Obama knew this but he should have.
I have one quick question. Obama is going to force me to buy heallth insurance. Where in the constitution does he get the power to force me to buy health insurance? The 10 amendment says he doesn’t have that power. The car insurance analogy is bogus because driving and owning a car is a priviledge granted by the state hence it can be severly regulated by the state. Being a human American citizen says my rights are given by God not a privlidge granted by the state!
We can’t restrict things from undocumented people because the infrastructure to easily find out who is and is not a citizen (national ID card?) doesn’t exist, and if it did it would have some icky privacy/security issues. E-verify is useful but far from perfect.
So it’s not helpful to focus on why the bills that are out there don’t require something that’s actually impossible currently. The most that can be done now is keeping people out of public plans like Medicare and Medicaid if their immigration status can’t be confirmed. And that’s in there.
As for immigration, I am happy that the Obama administration is stepping up pressure on people who hire people with no or faked papers. It needs to cost way more to get caught hiring an undocumented worker than it would to just hire legally in the first place. Fines up the ying-yang can be highly motivational.
So Clayton we should just throw open the national treasury so those in this country illegally can get more free beneifits from the tax payer?
#46, since Kendall didn’t respond, I accept your suggestion that he was commenting about Congressman Joe Wilson. I applaud Mr. Wilsons outburst and I think it was gracious of him then to apologize, [i] to the office of the President[/i]. Why do I say that?
Our President is just that, he is a president. He is not a monarch, he is not holiness from God. He was elected by the people to serve this country and defend the constitution. By his actions and his words down through the years and his current speeches, he is doing neither.
No where in the Gospel does Jesus call us to be a door mat for evil. And this country, founded by Christians seeking liberty and freedom for all was born by speaking out to those who respect neither.
Illegal immigrants should be allowed to purchase insurance. It makes sense that states and the government should restrict, however, the common purse. Still, no person should be turned down at the hospital door, no matter what condition they are in or who they are.
#52 – although I agree with your sentiment “turn the other cheek” is why Jesus is a narrow gate, one that is hard to struggle with. Of course, I do admit, I’m so conservative that I don’t have that much of an issue with monarchies. Republics are, alas, liberal inventions.
#49 – Dave – I don’t get your logic. Do you think health care is a privilege or a right? If it is a privilege, than those who don’t want health shouldn’t get doctors or hospitals. On the other hand, nor should we insist that doctors and hospitals be regulated.
If health care is not a privilege, but a right, then it means that the state has to come up with mechanisms to protect that right. Otherwise, it’s a hollow right. Citizenship only makes sense if there is a state to protect that citizenship.
#52:
“OH MAN!! Did you hear what Jesus said to the Pharisees? Who does he think he is to come against G-d’s representatives like that? To call them hypocrites is one thing, but then to compare them to white-washed tombs!!! How dare he! He’d better apologize right away or his popularity polls are going to TANK!”
#51 – The only way to keep “illegals” from getting care is to make everyone prove their immigration status before getting care. Would you want to carry a national ID card on your person at all times? Would you agree to let the EMTs hold off performing CPR on you until they determined your legitimacy? The only way the system works is to provide care and figure out later who “deserved” it and who didn’t. The cost of doing it any other way isn’t worth it.
Actually, I do carry a STATE ID card on my person at all times — it’s called a driver’s license, and I also carry my social security card and my insurance card(s).
And why put illegals in quotation marks? They are here illegally, and so they are correctly classified as illegals and criminals — for they are breaking the laws of this country.
[blockquote]Do you think health care is a privilege or a right? [/blockquote]
It’s neither, but a wide array of goods and services available for purchase at an agreed-on price. I don’t have a right to it any more than I have a right to someone’s car, their kitchen table or to force them to perform services for me. Similarly, it’s not a privilege insofar as it should never be something forbidden to some while bestowed upon others by some authority.
#56 – awesome! Which one of those would you like to have as the baseline document that every person must carry in order to receive emergency healthcare? Which one is secure enough? Difficult enough to forge?
Presumably, a bleeding and unconscious robbery victim who did not have these documents would be left untreated, to avoid accidentally providing health care to someone who didn’t deserve it.
There are plenty of policy questions around healthcare that are open to debate, but I don’t see a way to prevent some people from getting emergency care that doesn’t ultimately endanger the rights of LEGAL CITIZENS to receive emergency care. So I don’t expect it to be in the final bill.
Clayton,
Man, you are just full of the hyperbole and false ‘strawman’ arguments are you not? If a robbery victim comes in, a police officer accompanies them with an incident report. The person is treated, and, if possible, a family member is contacted to come in and fill out the paperwork.
How about doing some research on your ‘hypothetical’ questions before you ask them?
And yes, everytime I go into a doctor’s office or the hospital, I’m asked for my insurance card. In recent years, we haven’t had this, as we were VOLUNTARILY without insurance, and the cost of the ER was still cheaper than paying a full year of premiums, so, when my wife broke her arm, we paid out of pocket at a lower rate of treatment (!).
Now however, my new job has great coverage, and an affordable family addition, so as soon as New Employee Orientation is open, I will be signing my family up for health care.