More to the point, consider [url=http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/200909_blog_coulson1.jpg]what we spend on schooling[/url] — I hesitate to call it “education” — compared to the patently miserable results.
Why is it that when we spend more on health care, with demonstrable improvement in life expectancy, politicians declare we must lower those costs. And when we spend more on schooling, with equally demonstrable [i]lack[/i] of results … those very same politicians declare with equal fervour that we must indeed spend [i]more[/i].
Here in Kansas about 70% of the state’s $14 Billion budget goes to “education,” and that’s not including the 50% of most people’s property taxes funneling into the same endless pit.
I’ve taught, as a substitute, in some of the state’s “best” schools. It would be more charitable than I feel to leave it that we’re wasting a lot of money. The results are abysmal, but I suppose the ever-growing ranks of administrators are enjoying their new $40 million administration building.
It is probably because private schools have the choice and are focused on performance that in so many countries they go for larger classes being taught by better teachers.
What it does do, however, is increase the number of teachers and, therefore, union dues paid to the NEA and AFT. Those are then recycled into Democratic campaign coffers.
#1 not sure how a $40 million dollar building is any different than a corporation in NYC. Besides, that $40 million went to employ lots of people who bought goods at all sorts of small businesses in the area.
it might be because, most of the time we elect people who don’t believe in government.
Jefferson’s resentment against teachers for supporting unions, is kind of like resenting doctors supporting the AMA. But he does seem to fall into the suspicion that education=liberalism. It does seem to bear out, of course.
Class size has some bearing on education, but quality of teaching is more important. Unfortunately, there is little reason for high quality persons to enter the profession because other professions are more lucrative, and in a society that values money above other forms of happiness, our expectations of them are unreasonable.
Needless to say, there are statistical traps all over this. For instance, geography skews class size considerably: once the population density drops below a certain level, the class sizes drop too, because there area limits to how big an area can feed a single school. The study also doesn’t look into distribution, and I think it’s a safe bet that the curve for Luxembourg looks quite different from that for Russia. There’s also a boobytrap in the private school numbers: it’s a leadpipe cinch that catholic parochial schools skew bigger than secular private schools, for instance.
What I’m guessing is that the reason why classroom size gets hot is that fast growing reasonably well-off suburbs are where the big classrooms are. When I was a kid, all my elementary school classes had thirty kids in them, because we were in new developments and there simply weren’t enough rooms to have smaller classes. Making people who are effective complainers stressed is a good way to bring an issue to the fore.
[blockquote]Jefferson’s resentment against teachers for supporting unions, is kind of like resenting doctors supporting the AMA. But he does seem to fall into the suspicion that education=liberalism. It does seem to bear out, of course.[/blockquote]
Resentment? I mere stated facts, Dr. Wilkins. The NEA and AFT are, for all intents and purposes, wards of the State and they know what side their bread is buttered on. I’m going from memory, but I seem to recall about 98% of their political support going to Democrats. If that’s not a positive feedback loop, such loops do not exist. And yes, the AMA is similarly configured, though the feedback is slightly attenuated. All the more reason to [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdcaLReCG3Y]do away with the cartel’s monopoly[/url].
My first observation is that the larger class sizes tend to be in nations with better educational results.
This goes along with my own situation – my best year in school was 6th grade which had 38 kids in the class. I had a growing hatred of school until that year. Also, and much more important, was the fact that what I learned that year was often my immediate foundation for further education even up into college.
I would rather be in a class of 40 with a good teacher than to be in a class of 5 with a poor one.
John Wilkins says, “Unfortunately, there is little reason for high quality persons to enter the profession because other professions are more lucrative.”
John, what do you say about the several teachers that I know who teach in private schools with very little pay because they are stifled and prevented from teaching excellence in public school? I am also a close friend who was a high school principal that retired early for the same reason.
[blockquote]not sure how a $40 million dollar building is any different than a corporation in NYC. Besides, that $40 million went to employ lots of people who bought goods at all sorts of small businesses in the area.[/blockquote]
Is this for real? No difference between taxpayers in Kansas spending $40MM in public funds versus a New York corporation funding their construction out of private profits? This POV is so alien I don’t know where to begin!
[blockquote]Is this for real? No difference between taxpayers in Kansas spending $40MM in public funds versus a New York corporation funding their construction out of private profits? This POV is so alien I don’t know where to begin! [/blockquote]
Indeed, we could just have those workers digging holes and filling them back up. Think of all the riches this would shower on America! Bridges to nowhere for everyone!!
I have taught in public schools, having retired after 25 years. I have also taught in a private school. My experience is that class size does make a difference. (So does a good deal of recent research–but you have to get the class size down to around 16 to get a statistically significant difference.) My public school classes averaged around 35; one year I managed to have one class of 20. Same teacher, same text, same materials, same lesson plans. The class of 20 did much better than the other four classes of 35+. The private school was much easier–classes of about a dozen and an entirely different type of student.
The reasons we have the large class sizes is economic. A number of years ago Texas limited the size of classes K-3 to 21–not enough to make a significant difference according to the studies. But it was problematic and nearly everyone gets exempted. In a small district, you might have the rural situation where there are 21 first graders. Fine–one teacher and one classroom. Then a family moves in with a first grader. Now you either have to get another classroom and teacher–probably costing nearly $100,000 because of that one kid with very little funding or else get an exemption. An urban or suburban school has 105 first graders–and 5 classes. Then a first grader moves in and you have to add a classroom and teacher–and shuffle a bunch of kids around to get a balanced class size of 17 or 18. Or you get the reverse–a first grader moves away. Or you simply do not have enough rooms or cannot fund enough teachers–or simply do not have enough funds. And it can get mixed up come time to consider promotions–retaining a kid that needs to be retained a year can mean an extra teacher and classroom.
And, yes. I was a member of NEA, TEA and TCTA. We weren’t “wards” of anyone. Yes, most teachers vote Democratic; you only have to look at the record of Republican legislators when it comes to schools and teacher working conditions and benefits to figure out why. And one would think that good solid conservative Americans would recognize teachers’ right to free speech, association and petition.
Nickolaus, public education easily suffers from a “free rider” problem, like roads and other public goods. Public education benefits even those who don’t purchase it’s services. Most people would argue that we should have a population that knows how to read and do math. In fact, corporations benefit. There seems to be a link between education and all sorts of social goods we take for granted. You may not like to pay for it, and find it a form of theft, but you benefit from it indirectly. You may never find yourself in the legal system, but you benefit by having one.
#10 jefferson – we actually do this, with the military, which makes things and then blows them up.
Give me back the $1 trillion dollars we spent in Iraq, and I bet we could have save the lives of tens of thousands of Americans and put 2 million people to work here, stimulating the economy.
DonGander, those teachers are clearly very nice people with a calling. But there are plenty of talented people who would choose teaching, and yet enter other professions for financial reasons. If we want to increase the market of good teachers, we should pay what it takes. It’s supply and demand. As a culture, however, we think teachers should be saints.
The problem is multifaceted – there’s no single bullet that will correct the schools. Conservatives aren’t wrong to point out the waste. But they don’t offer many solutions except cut salaries of teachers and require more testing.
The Harlem Children’s Zone has some ideas. Small classes seem to help, but its no panecea. Principals who encourage independent thinking and are supportive of their teachers, create better learning environments. Buildings that aren’t falling apart help also. Generally, you get what you pay for, which is why wealthier people move to better school districts and are willing to pay higher property taxes. The educated seem to know that a good education is worth paying for. Tax cut enthusiast don’t care, except that they seem to think they’re more rational and self-less than everyone else.
More to the point, consider [url=http://coyote-blog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/200909_blog_coulson1.jpg]what we spend on schooling[/url] — I hesitate to call it “education” — compared to the patently miserable results.
Why is it that when we spend more on health care, with demonstrable improvement in life expectancy, politicians declare we must lower those costs. And when we spend more on schooling, with equally demonstrable [i]lack[/i] of results … those very same politicians declare with equal fervour that we must indeed spend [i]more[/i].
Here in Kansas about 70% of the state’s $14 Billion budget goes to “education,” and that’s not including the 50% of most people’s property taxes funneling into the same endless pit.
I’ve taught, as a substitute, in some of the state’s “best” schools. It would be more charitable than I feel to leave it that we’re wasting a lot of money. The results are abysmal, but I suppose the ever-growing ranks of administrators are enjoying their new $40 million administration building.
In study after study class size had been shown to have almost no effect on student academic progress.
What matters is the quality of the teaching, and what improves that most is feedback.
The most recent assessment of the relative improvement from different policy changes can be found here:
http://www.teacherstoolbox.co.uk/T_effect_sizes.html
It is probably because private schools have the choice and are focused on performance that in so many countries they go for larger classes being taught by better teachers.
What it does do, however, is increase the number of teachers and, therefore, union dues paid to the NEA and AFT. Those are then recycled into Democratic campaign coffers.
And you thought it was about education.
#1 not sure how a $40 million dollar building is any different than a corporation in NYC. Besides, that $40 million went to employ lots of people who bought goods at all sorts of small businesses in the area.
it might be because, most of the time we elect people who don’t believe in government.
Jefferson’s resentment against teachers for supporting unions, is kind of like resenting doctors supporting the AMA. But he does seem to fall into the suspicion that education=liberalism. It does seem to bear out, of course.
Class size has some bearing on education, but quality of teaching is more important. Unfortunately, there is little reason for high quality persons to enter the profession because other professions are more lucrative, and in a society that values money above other forms of happiness, our expectations of them are unreasonable.
Needless to say, there are statistical traps all over this. For instance, geography skews class size considerably: once the population density drops below a certain level, the class sizes drop too, because there area limits to how big an area can feed a single school. The study also doesn’t look into distribution, and I think it’s a safe bet that the curve for Luxembourg looks quite different from that for Russia. There’s also a boobytrap in the private school numbers: it’s a leadpipe cinch that catholic parochial schools skew bigger than secular private schools, for instance.
What I’m guessing is that the reason why classroom size gets hot is that fast growing reasonably well-off suburbs are where the big classrooms are. When I was a kid, all my elementary school classes had thirty kids in them, because we were in new developments and there simply weren’t enough rooms to have smaller classes. Making people who are effective complainers stressed is a good way to bring an issue to the fore.
[blockquote]Jefferson’s resentment against teachers for supporting unions, is kind of like resenting doctors supporting the AMA. But he does seem to fall into the suspicion that education=liberalism. It does seem to bear out, of course.[/blockquote]
Resentment? I mere stated facts, Dr. Wilkins. The NEA and AFT are, for all intents and purposes, wards of the State and they know what side their bread is buttered on. I’m going from memory, but I seem to recall about 98% of their political support going to Democrats. If that’s not a positive feedback loop, such loops do not exist. And yes, the AMA is similarly configured, though the feedback is slightly attenuated. All the more reason to [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdcaLReCG3Y]do away with the cartel’s monopoly[/url].
My first observation is that the larger class sizes tend to be in nations with better educational results.
This goes along with my own situation – my best year in school was 6th grade which had 38 kids in the class. I had a growing hatred of school until that year. Also, and much more important, was the fact that what I learned that year was often my immediate foundation for further education even up into college.
I would rather be in a class of 40 with a good teacher than to be in a class of 5 with a poor one.
Don
John Wilkins says, “Unfortunately, there is little reason for high quality persons to enter the profession because other professions are more lucrative.”
John, what do you say about the several teachers that I know who teach in private schools with very little pay because they are stifled and prevented from teaching excellence in public school? I am also a close friend who was a high school principal that retired early for the same reason.
Don
[blockquote]not sure how a $40 million dollar building is any different than a corporation in NYC. Besides, that $40 million went to employ lots of people who bought goods at all sorts of small businesses in the area.[/blockquote]
Is this for real? No difference between taxpayers in Kansas spending $40MM in public funds versus a New York corporation funding their construction out of private profits? This POV is so alien I don’t know where to begin!
[blockquote]Is this for real? No difference between taxpayers in Kansas spending $40MM in public funds versus a New York corporation funding their construction out of private profits? This POV is so alien I don’t know where to begin! [/blockquote]
Indeed, we could just have those workers digging holes and filling them back up. Think of all the riches this would shower on America! Bridges to nowhere for everyone!!
I have taught in public schools, having retired after 25 years. I have also taught in a private school. My experience is that class size does make a difference. (So does a good deal of recent research–but you have to get the class size down to around 16 to get a statistically significant difference.) My public school classes averaged around 35; one year I managed to have one class of 20. Same teacher, same text, same materials, same lesson plans. The class of 20 did much better than the other four classes of 35+. The private school was much easier–classes of about a dozen and an entirely different type of student.
The reasons we have the large class sizes is economic. A number of years ago Texas limited the size of classes K-3 to 21–not enough to make a significant difference according to the studies. But it was problematic and nearly everyone gets exempted. In a small district, you might have the rural situation where there are 21 first graders. Fine–one teacher and one classroom. Then a family moves in with a first grader. Now you either have to get another classroom and teacher–probably costing nearly $100,000 because of that one kid with very little funding or else get an exemption. An urban or suburban school has 105 first graders–and 5 classes. Then a first grader moves in and you have to add a classroom and teacher–and shuffle a bunch of kids around to get a balanced class size of 17 or 18. Or you get the reverse–a first grader moves away. Or you simply do not have enough rooms or cannot fund enough teachers–or simply do not have enough funds. And it can get mixed up come time to consider promotions–retaining a kid that needs to be retained a year can mean an extra teacher and classroom.
And, yes. I was a member of NEA, TEA and TCTA. We weren’t “wards” of anyone. Yes, most teachers vote Democratic; you only have to look at the record of Republican legislators when it comes to schools and teacher working conditions and benefits to figure out why. And one would think that good solid conservative Americans would recognize teachers’ right to free speech, association and petition.
Nickolaus, public education easily suffers from a “free rider” problem, like roads and other public goods. Public education benefits even those who don’t purchase it’s services. Most people would argue that we should have a population that knows how to read and do math. In fact, corporations benefit. There seems to be a link between education and all sorts of social goods we take for granted. You may not like to pay for it, and find it a form of theft, but you benefit from it indirectly. You may never find yourself in the legal system, but you benefit by having one.
#10 jefferson – we actually do this, with the military, which makes things and then blows them up.
Give me back the $1 trillion dollars we spent in Iraq, and I bet we could have save the lives of tens of thousands of Americans and put 2 million people to work here, stimulating the economy.
DonGander, those teachers are clearly very nice people with a calling. But there are plenty of talented people who would choose teaching, and yet enter other professions for financial reasons. If we want to increase the market of good teachers, we should pay what it takes. It’s supply and demand. As a culture, however, we think teachers should be saints.
The problem is multifaceted – there’s no single bullet that will correct the schools. Conservatives aren’t wrong to point out the waste. But they don’t offer many solutions except cut salaries of teachers and require more testing.
The Harlem Children’s Zone has some ideas. Small classes seem to help, but its no panecea. Principals who encourage independent thinking and are supportive of their teachers, create better learning environments. Buildings that aren’t falling apart help also. Generally, you get what you pay for, which is why wealthier people move to better school districts and are willing to pay higher property taxes. The educated seem to know that a good education is worth paying for. Tax cut enthusiast don’t care, except that they seem to think they’re more rational and self-less than everyone else.