Even when the “fixes” that have to be approved by the Senate are made, the health-care bill will still be something of a mess. But it’s a glorious mess, because it enshrines the principle that all Americans have the right to health care — an extraordinary achievement that will make this a better nation.
It may take years to get the details right. The newly minted reforms are going to need to be reformed or at least fine-tuned, and those will not be easy battles. But the social movements that allowed Obama to become president and Pelosi to become speaker proved that the arc of history bends toward fairness and inclusion.
Needed change must not be thwarted, even if some people find it hard to accept. Obama got it right in his remarks following the vote: “We did not fear our future. We shaped it.”
[blockquote] because it enshrines the principle that all Americans have the right to health care[/blockquote]
And just which article in our Constitution contains the statement of that “right”?
The fact remains that the money has to come from somewhere. Is it demonstrable that the Federal Government will do a better job of administering that money than the citizens themselves?
This, like so much else, is simply about who gets the power and control.
Great quote from this week: Governing is not the same thing as controlling. We Episcopalians can attest to that.
Sigh – I wish we were still free to live our lives unencumbered by the soulless bureaucrats in Washington. It seems like the more “rights” the government deigns to give us, the more dysfunctional our lives and our society become.
For comparison purposes, I note that the constitution of Italy (much shorter than the US Constitution) actually declares medical care to be a right. It doesn’t say how much, though.
Now, if it had been the “Socialized Medicine, Gun Rights, Strong Military, and Lower Taxes” bill, I believe it would have easily passed with bipartisan support.
All Americans have always had the right to health care. This bill enshrines the right for an individual to make other people pay for it.
#4 Creedal is right.
In addition, once someone else is paying for it, they get to tell you how you will be treated.
Making a “glorious mess” is not something to cheer about.
[blockquote]Is it demonstrable that the Federal Government will do a better job of administering that money than the citizens themselves?[/blockquote] I’d say its demonstrable that we haven’t done a very good job of it so far [i]without[/i] the government.
Let’s think about the government’s track record so far on the things they already administer.
Most people do not want some soul-less bureaucrat telling their doctor what he/she can or cannot do about their lives. IMHO big government is NOT the answer to this issue, and nothing will prevail upon me to think otherwise. So thanks for the thought.
Wow. Two “soulless bureaucrat” cries in one t19 thread!
I suspect they have souls.
Is anyone surprised by this. I read in one article that some folks are saying this is going to be like Christmas. Who is going to pay for this? Many folks are not working now and the rest are not paying the taxes of the past. Our property is half the value that it was therefore property tax revenues are less. Very few small businesses are making ends meet and unlike times before, reserves have run out and the doors are about to close. And what I see more so than ever before is a distrust of the government. I believe that tax revenues will continue to plummet as a result of frustration. And there is a gorilla in the room.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
It is conceivable that a local illiterate piggly wiggly shopper may not understand what is really happening, but is it possible that the great minds in our government cannot. Might there is a bit of filling the pockets before jumping ship? This is not sustainable and adding to debt through a phony new health care bill is treason. It doesn’t matter if the entitlements are old or new, they all have to go back. It is gonna get ugly.
Actually, the Do Nothing party in all of this has shaped the future too. They have poisoned what remained of fresh water in the well of political discourse, and having killed rational (to say nothing of civil) debate, they continue to abuse the body, guaranteeing that the stench will remain a long time.
So is the Do Nothing party the Democrats or the Republicans? Because what you say can apply to both (although I do give the Republicans a little more credit for logic and civility). That’s okay – we’ve already decided to retire early – otherwise we’re in the increased taxes category and we can’t afford it and save for retirement as well, since we’re not government employees with the higher than average salary and guaranteed pension. I think you’ll see more and more people close to retirement age doing this.
To be clear – we’re retiring early so that our income will decrease so we won’t be in a high tax bracket so we can decrease our tax burden. We will also start drawing on Social Security as soon as we’re 62 since there’s no guarantee that it will be around for long. Actually, we’re just banking on my husband getting social security for a while, and we’re not sure if it will still be there when I’m 62.
Why is it no-one seems to have a problem with gov’t controlled Medicare and the Veterans Admin but if they try to mandate for everyone else it’s socialism? Make you pay for someone else’s health care? What do you think you do now when an uninsured person hits the emergency room with no way to pay? It only costs a lot more the old way. The only thing that’s really going to get ugly about it is the continued rhetoric of the just say no to everything GOP and the rabble they have roused.
Count me part of the rabble then, Mike L, (not trying to use ad hominems or anything, are you). Never before has the federal government mandated that a citizen must purchase a product – and that is what this bill has done. If the government can mandate this purchase, what will they mandate that we buy next? With the IRS in charge of making sure we’ve purchased correctly?
Not all of us think Medicare is a good deal, but at least it passed after debate and with member of both parties voting for it. Public opinion was also in favor, not the case with this legislation. The VA is a different animal since the military is structured so differently from civilian life.
RE: “I’d say its demonstrable that we haven’t done a very good job of it so far without the government.”
Wow — who knew you were so familiar with pre-1940s medical history? Because of course, since the 1940s the government has absolutely and steadily torpedoed medicine which has led to the current — no, I’m sorry — the prior to last week mess.
Sure would have been nice for real healthcare reform to have been enacted. But now we will merely have the current “system” on steroids and on speed, with higher taxes and poorer quality. Sweet!
RE: “They have poisoned what remained of fresh water in the well of political discourse, and having killed rational (to say nothing of civil) debate, they continue to abuse the body, guaranteeing that the stench will remain a long time.”
The Republican Party has been truly dreadful over the past 10 years, basically serving as the “let’s move more slowly to socialism and completely abandon our own platform.” But their past year of effort on healthcare has been most excellent. May that stench remain a much longer time. It’s a “stench” to collectivists, and it is the smell of lilies and daffodils for those who value the Constitution and recognize that the actions of Sunday were immoral, illegal, anti-Constitution, and anti-Liberty.
RE: “The only thing that’s really going to get ugly about it is the continued rhetoric of the just say no to everything GOP and the rabble they have roused.”
Hopefully so. ; > )
I’m proudly one of the rabble and I look forward to November. Of course, their rhetoric didn’t “rouse” me — I was roused long long ago.
One person’s rabble, after all, is another person’s Constitutionalist. And oh yeh — Medicare is horrible and getting worse. The good news is that physicians now are more and more moving to a cash-only practice and simply abandoning the practice of accepting new Medicare patients — they did so long ago with Medicaid, which means something most interesting for the millions that the State has now added to those rolls.
No gov’t mandated purchases? Really? Ever own a car?
And the rabble I referred to are those nut case Tea Partiers busy throwing the n-word, and the f-word, and spitting on people and shouting down anyone who has something to say that maybe is in favor of the bill as a means of voicing their displeasure. If you’re of that group, well there’s really not much to be said.
Please, not the “car” argument – it reminds me of the shellfish argument in TEC. The government does not mandate that you own a car. It is your choice. You can buy a car or not. Once you do own a car, depending on the STATE (not federal) you live in, you may or may not need to purchase insurance.
And there is no video evidence of what was reported this weekend as far as racial slurs and no evidence from observers. Jesse Jackson apparently videotaped the entire walk and he’s not releasing the tape, so until it’s more than a he said/he said, I’ll withhold judgment.
Mike L, not to say any protests doesn’t sometimes draw its share of crazies (think war protests and Pres. Bush), but be very careful. Some of the reports from the Tea Party protests have revealed that those with the despicable behaviour have been plants from liberal groups. (And don’t forget the beating that Ken Gladney in St. Louis received from the SEIU thugs)
Yeah, right. That’s why a recent Louis Harris poll off 2230 GOPers reveals:
1) 57 percent of Republicans believe that Obama is a Muslim
2) 45 percent of Republicans still think Obama was not born in the United States
3) 38 percent of Republicans say that Obama is “doing many of the things that Hitler did” (really?)
4) Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans say that Obama “may be the Antichrist.”
And you think the liberals have to bother to place plants in the Tea Party crowds to make them look like nuts? Ha……..ha-ha-ha.
The things going on in America these days, are not far from the wild things going on in The Episcopal Church. When power became the overall objection of the leadership of the church, and Biblical standards, other-orientedness went out—and the votes clearly were not there to reverse this, I got out. I took some action. The question remains, what are you going to do about Obama and the group in Washington, now? Are you going to give money to the conservatives? Do anything to try to reverse this course? How many of you are still in TEC?
And when Bush was president, according to Public Policy Polling, one fourth of Democrats believed that George Bush intentionally allowed the September 11, 2001 terror attacks. There are always stats that can say anything. You still haven’t addressed the constitutionality of the health insurance mandate requiring a U.S. citizen to purchase a product. If the government can force us to buy health insurance, they can force us to buy anything. But of course, as Rep. Pelosi herself has said, this is just the first step to single-payer, government controlled health care.
Sarah, good luck in November. I think you overestimate your chances. If you want another Republicans view of it, you can go to http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo to see what this former Bush advisor says. In particular “No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole†and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?”
Branford, I’ll admit the requirement to buy may be constitutionally hazy. And I’m sure the multiple states already filing suit will bring that up and we’ll soon see what the Supremes think. But I suppose you view the alternative is better where you can ignore your coverage and just depend on the emergency room to save you so the costs get passed on to the rest of us anyway. How does that attitude jibe with the conservative mindset again?
The 25 year change is interesting. If you are unemployed living at home with nothing to do and your parent, maybe parents, are below the income level then they can receive a tax credit, even though they pay no taxes, to cover your insurance. Does this draw a picture? According to Politicalaffairs.net, (I promise you this is not a tea party magazine) “African American men of prime working age (25-54) I estimate the “real” jobless rate at 26 percent. For African American teens (16-19), “real” unemployment is 74 percent.” I repeat to those that can hear; who will pay for this? Don’t forget the gorilla in the room – http://www.usdebtclock.org/
RE: “And the rabble I referred to are those nut case Tea Partiers busy throwing the n-word, and the f-word, and spitting on people and shouting down anyone who has something to say that maybe is in favor of the bill as a means of voicing their displeasure. If you’re of that group, well there’s really not much to be said.”
Heh — I’ll gladly be a part of the “Tea Partiers” though I have never attended a Tea Party event, as I frankly don’t give a flying rat’s fig as to what *you* think of them or me. It’s an honor to be called anything you please by the likes of you, Mike L, and as I don’t shudder at your little straw men I treat your estimation of the “Tea Partiers” rather like Tom Bombadil treated the ring. A laugh and a wink.
RE: “I think you overestimate your chances.”
I’m afraid you don’t know what I estimate to be our chances — I’ve written about them elsewhere and I suspect you’d be surprised. I merely remarked that I am looking forward to November. And you may estimate as you please.
Signed,
One of the happy rabble
No, Mike L, I don’t ignore my coverage. As responsible citizens, we should have a clear understanding of who pays for what and how. Unfortunately, the media and the politicians aren’t always the best sources for discussing our civic responsibility. I don’t depend on the emergency room because I understand that that way of handling my health care is irresponsible. And that is the conservative mindset – that we are responsible for ourselves (and that includes making sure we can cover any health costs) and that we don’t expect the government to bail us out.
I also agree there should be some sort of safety net for those unable to afford health care because of poverty and some type of regulation of health insurance. There were many things that could have been implemented that would have helped a great deal without this bill’s government control and costs. And I blame the Republicans for not taking health care reform seriously when they were in control.
Mike L, you are a prejudiced bigot, summarily dismissing great numbers of people whom you do not know.
My wife has taken part in two Tea Party rallies in Washington, including the one last weekend. She is the soul of civility, belongs to no political party (i.e., is an Independent), does not believe that Obama is a Muslim, or that he was born outside the United States, or that he is Hitler redevidus, or that he is the Antichrist. She is deeply, passionately concerned about the erosion of constitutional federalism, something that has occurred under both Democratic and Republican presidents, but that has gained particular momentum under the ideological direction of the Obama administration. In sum, she is a concerned citizen.
I would like for you to tell me how, exactly, your prejudicial, bigoted, ignorant and demeaning portrayal of my wife (and our 16 year old daughter, as well) and her political activity is different in kind from the venom (staged or not) of the people who threw around racial and anti-homosexual epithets this weekend.
Todd Granger, you might be interested in Michael Graham’s That’s No Angry Mob, That’s My Mom: Team Obama’s Assault on Tea-Party, Talk-Radio Americans for your wife and daughter – I don’t know anything about it, but Glenn Reynolds at Instapundit mentioned it.
Yeah all the signs and the messages they state at Tea Party events are the shining example of civility. The throwing of rocks thru representitives windows with threatening messages is the height of civility. The shouting down of anyone attempting to state their support of something being down is the definition of civility.
Your wife and daughter may be the very best of people and may be the very best example of civility, but a group they are associated with is anything but.
That’s ok Sarah, it doesn’t really concern me if you don’t care what I think or your opinion of how I think about the Tea Party loons. Because anyone, and I mean anyone who cannot take exception to what we have seen at many of the rallies and representative meetings and instead view them as OK behavior are so far out on the lunatic fringe that they are politically insignificant and quite frankly have most likely removed themselves from effectively doing anything to move this country forward.
Wow Mike L – where are you getting your news? Check out Ann Althouse’s blog (law professor at the Univ of Wisconsin) for more info – she’s no conservative, she voted for Pres. Obama, and she appreciates and attends the Tea Parties. Her husband was in D.C. this past weekend for the Party at the Capitol. I went to the first one in San Diego and it was a blast – lots of families, all ages, all colors, all ethnicities, lots of homemade signs full of puns and patriotism.
The best thing to do with Mike L is to ignore him. By answering him you are just playing his nasty little game. Don’t do it.
RE: “Because anyone, and I mean anyone who cannot take exception to what we have seen at many of the rallies and representative meetings and instead view them as OK behavior are so far out on the lunatic fringe that they are politically insignificant and quite frankly have most likely removed themselves from effectively doing anything to move this country forward.”
Tee hee.
Oh No. [b]Whatever Shall We Do Now![/b]
The Tea partiers Have Sunk Themselves Beneath Mike L’s Reproach.
I hope that we all shall be able to recover — but I am swooning even now — how fortunate that the reclining couch has caught me!
Somebody pass me the smelling salts and the lavender water. I feel an attack of consumption coming over me as [b]The Cruel Rejecting Mike L Castigates Us All[/b].
My self esteem is [b]Utterly Shattered[/b].
How shall I Ever Recover????
RE: “By answering him you are just playing his nasty little game.”
Oh come come, tgs — don’t take away my fun. ; > )
[There are a number of overheated comments on this thread in language and content. We encourage commenters to keep to discussing the topic – thanks – Elf]
Sorry Sarah, but what is fun for you may not be fun for others. The Mike L’s of the world love to use this tactic to take over and direct comments away from anything constructive. Please don’t encourage him. Many thanks.