The new healthcare law will pack 32 million newly insured people into emergency rooms already crammed beyond capacity, according to experts on healthcare facilities.
A chief aim of the new healthcare law was to take the pressure off emergency rooms by mandating that people either have insurance coverage. The idea was that if people have insurance, they will go to a doctor rather than putting off care until they faced an emergency.
People who build hospitals, however, say newly insured people will still go to emergency rooms for primary care because they don’t have a doctor.
“Everybody expected that one of the initial impacts of reform would be less pressure on emergency departments; it’s going to be exactly the opposite over the next four to eight years,” said Rich Dallam, a healthcare partner at the architectural firm NBBJ, which designs healthcare facilities.
May those that voted for this find themselves waiting in line with the rest of us!
And the point is what? Before health care reform these people didn’t see a doctor or go to an emergency room when they were ill or injured?? And now they WILL go to an emergency room, although everybody would prefer they go to a doctor instead?? So….it was better before when they just didn’t get treatment? And now the emergency rooms will be all crowded up with those people who used to just stay home quietly and die? And this is really bad???
Let’s have this conversation again after you have just rushed your child to the ER and end up waiting in line while illegal immigrants with head colds are seen before you.
“Everybody expected that one of the initial impacts of reform would be less pressure on emergency departments…”
Whose everybody? That “everybody” guy is an idiot. He only needed to look at what happened in Massachusetts.
Catholic Mom writes, “And now the emergency rooms will be all crowded up with those people who used to just stay home quietly and die? And this is really bad???”
Sorry, but as S&T points out, the patients with the freshly printed Medicaid cards with be going, not for life threatening illnesses, but for ridiculous reasons that someone with private 80-20 insurance would never go to an ER for. They have to pay for $2 only. While they are waiting, there are TVs in the rooms, they get hot meals, and afterwards, maybe they will score some Demerol or Dilaudid from the ER doc.
robroy, it’s hard to believe that statement was made by a Christian. Please provide one iota of evidence that people with medicaid cards come to emergency rooms because they only have to pay $2 vs the point of the article that they come to emergency rooms because no private doctor will see them. And what emergency rooms do you know that provide “hot meals”???? And please provide evidence for your statement that people on medicaid come to emergency rooms to get demerol and dilaudid from doctors. Sure, you’re a doctor so you just “know” these things. Strangely, my brother-in-law is a surgeon who spends a lot of time in emergency rooms and he was praying for health care reform because of the disasters he sees of people coming in there with horrific situations that they have literally let fester because they couldn’t afford a doctor.
And this is only the first of the surprises, as the Vicious Unexpected Consequences comes leaping out of the puckerbrush to bite the passing Obamaraneans. The next one will be that there are no doctors there for the billow of patients because there just aren’t enough doctors to treat the vast increase on patients. And one opnly hs top go to an ER when there are illegals around to see them in front of you, looking for treatment. Larry
Whether or not there are illegals in the ER is both irrelevant to this article and irrelevant to health care reform in general because this article is about AMERICANS who will now have access to health care that they didn’t have before. Which, frankly I might have thought Christians might think is a good thing. Heck, I might even have thought that Christians might even want illegals to be taken care of.
I seem to remember this story that Jesus told. A Mexican got hurt by a lawnmower while cutting the lawn of a bunch of well-to-do suburbanites. He lay on the side of the road bleeding. A bunch of Christians passed him by saying “we can’t take him to the ER where he’ll use up our medical services for $2 and watch TV and get free meals and score drugs” so they passed him by. Then a Samaritan came by…
You know, I don’t dismiss parts of the Bible on the grounds that “folks back then just didn’t know what we know now” because fundamentally human nature doesn’t change and folks back then and certainly Jesus understood it all too well.
Big difference, Catholicmom. Today, armed IRS agents will break down your door at 2 AM if you don’t give them the money to pay for the criminal that had stolen a Social Security number and was fraudulently using it to take a job from a US Citizen.
See, in the story Jesus was telling, he was trying to change hearts. In the story that Obama is telling, there are guns drawn and pointing at you if you don’t fork over your cash and give it to them to pay for the criminals to jump in line in front of your family. You don’t seem to grasp the difference.
You’re right. Human nature doesn’t change. Some people demand the fruit of your labor and will use force to steal it from you if you won’t give it to them. Heck, some of them won’t even give you a chance to offer it before using force to just take it.
I guess, now that Obamacare is taking care of everyone’s medical needs, I can just stop all my voluntary giving (and unlike Liberals, I actually give thousands of dollars every year – not my used underwear either; CASH). Yep, with 40 million on foodstamps and everyone getting free medical care, I can pretty much just brush my hands clean of any personal responsibility now. I don’t have to give anymore because the government is forcefully taking it from me to give on my behalf! What a relief.
Of course, the folks I was giving the money too will now have to hold out their hands to Uncle Sam and fill out lot’s of paperwork instead of getting help from me through a Christian organization. Oh, well. At least Catholicmom is happy with the new coerced “charity”.
Gee, the original meaning of “charity” was “love”. I guess we will have to change that meaning to “bureaucracy” now, because it sure isn’t love when the threat of guns used against you is there if you don’t fork over the money.
This is always the right-wing “Christian” answer, isn’t it? You know — “I personally would pick the guy up from the street and bring him into my house and perform surgery on him and then do physical therapy with him for a month but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let the government use my tax dollars to do it.”
But you CAN’T pick the guy up and do surgery on him and you can’t pay for it yourself either even if you wanted to because of the insane way our medical system is set up with two sets of prices — one for the insurance companies and one for the people without insurance (or the people trying to pay for people without insurance).
I just had a colonoscopy (a very fun experience and a topic for another post). My insurance company paid close to $3,000 in total for it, which personally I found insane, but I suppose paying $648 to the anesthesiologist for mild sedation for 25 minutes made sense. But here’s the crazy part — I got to the the bill as submitted to the insurance company BEFORE everybody got paid the amount that they had contracted with the insurance company to accept. And it came to $13,000 — for a 25 minute outpatient procedure.
I have absolutely no doubt that you will blame that on government interference with health care, or electrical activity on the sun, or whatever else you want to invent. But those are the facts. So, in effect, nobody in the U.S. without insurance can afford to get a colonscopy and you, should you be so Christianly inclined to do, can’t pay for anybody else either. Which, perhaps, is why colon cancer (which is virtually completely preventable with regular colonoscopy) is the #2 cancer killer in the U.S. (And by the way, the doctor found a small polyp which was removed and she wants me to come back for another one in a year and then EVERY THREE YEARS for the rest of my life. And this is going to cost??) This is simply NOT something that can be handled by individual Christian charity just like national defense can’t be paid for by patriotic individuals.
Oh, yeah, this is personal, not hypothetical. In December, my wife was having difficulty breathing a few weeks before our 3rd child was born. I rushed her to the ER at 10PM that night with our other two children in tow. We waited over 2 hours before she was seen because there was a long line of immigrants in the ER waiting room. I was getting so worried that I went to the receptionist multiple times. Finally, after I threatened to take her to another hospital to actually get seen by medical personnel…finally, she was seen. Guess what? She had H1N1 and since she was pregnant, it was life threatening. She was admitted as a patient and stayed in the hospital for several days. This might not have ended so well if I had just sat back and waited in line for all the freebees to go first.
Last year, I had a post operative infection and was rushed back to the ER in unbelievable pain. It was a life threatening infection. I waited over 4 hours, in agony, to see a doctor in the ER. Next to me in the room divided by a curtain was an immigrant family whose kid had a tummy ache from the common flu. I’m sorry that their kid had a tummy ache and all, but you know what? The infection that I had was literally killing me in the next bed over and I was waiting for the doctor to see the kid before I was seen! They put me on IV anti-biotics and I stayed in the hospital for 3 days. The kid was discharged with an over-the-counter medicine!
So, this is personal, and I deeply resent the implications that folks that disagree with your politics are somehow lesser Christians!
Also, how do you think Jesus feels about Christians being forced to pay for abortions under Obamacare?
[b]New Catholic Bishops Memo: Abortion in Health Care Despite Obama Order[/b]
http://www.lifenews.com/nat6210.html
So, Christians are being forced to pay, not just for illegal immigrants, but for the murder of helpless little babies by this Obamanation Health Care!!!
This article IS NOT ABOUT ILLEGAL ALIENS. But let’s just get completely off topic and discuss your experiences in the emergency room. What is your point? That illegal aliens shouldn’t go to the emergency room unless they have truly life-threatening problems which they should diagnose themselves?
What would you suggest that immigrant family with the child with a “tummy ache” do if they can’t see a doctor? And, by the way, what time of day was this? When my son was four years old he woke up one night screaming in pain. He was doubled over and he kept saying “please help me, please help me.” I called the pediatrician. They told me to take him to the emergency room. It turned out he had the flu.
It’s the job of the emergency room to triage patients. I brought another son their with a broken arm and we sat there for three hours before anybody touched us. Since I didn’t check papers (and neither did you) I have no idea if there were any “illegal immigrants” there. There was one woman there who didn’t speak English with her husband. She appeared to be having a late-term miscarriage. I did not resent her being there.
Please clairify exactly what you would have liked done differently. And if the answer is “better triage” than that totally has nothing to do with this article.
I have bad news for you. You are already paying for a huge number of the abortions in the U.S. via the insurance premiums you (or your employer) pay. In all good conscience, you should decline to participate in any insurance program that covers abortions. I’m sure you do.
I can’t now, Catholicmom. It’s the law. We all have to have to pay for governement insurance for others now; haven’t you been paying attention? Before, we had choices, now, the government is forcefully taking our money and paying for abortions regardless of our personal insurance choices because they are using taxpayer money to fund those that do not have insurance and that money can be used for abortions. Before, the law, my insurance provider was not providing for abortions because I am a Federal Worker and the Hyde Amendment prohibitied it. Now, your socialist leader has changed all that. Regardless of my personal insurance choice, my tax dollars are paying for abortion by providing free insurance to others and that insurance will provide for abortions.
Thanks. Evidently you supported that with your vote. When we stand before God, you can tell him, OK. I didn’t want this, but you did, so you can tell Him. Perhaps you will get a pass because you “meant well”…but then again, the Bishops did come out against it, so your spiritual leaders warned you. Hey, but that’s a long time away from now. Let’s all just sing a rainbow song and get with the program.
Catholicmom, there are 20,000,000 illegal aliens in the country. Of course this healthcare law is about illegal aliens! There were 30 million uninsured…and 20 million illegal aliens…so 2/3rds of this is ENTIRELY ABOUT ILLEGAL ALIENS!!! That is EXACTLY on topic!!!
You asked: “What is your point? That illegal aliens shouldn’t go to the emergency room unless they have truly life-threatening problems…” YES. No one should go to the ER unless they have “truly life-threatening problems”. Because, when they do, they are blocking the treatment for those that have truly life-threatening problems.
You asked: “What would you suggest that immigrant family with the child with a “tummy ache†do if they can’t see a doctor? ”
I suggest they go to the walk-in clinic like most folks and PAY for their care, just like the rest of us. BTW, the walk-in clinic wasn’t covered by my insurance on the times when we have resorted to it and you know what? I paid the bill. That’s right! I reached in my own pocket, not yours, not my neighbors, but my own and paid MY BILL for service that was rendered! What an amazing concept!!! And if I didn’t have the money to do so, I would have asked my neighbor or friends at my Church and I would have worked hard to PAY THEM BACK!!! Because, I know how hard they had to work for their money. I know that when they make sacrifices for me, their family has to do without. I don’t EXPECT FREE HANDOUTS and I certainly don’t go around DEMANDING them and I would NEVER, EVER, EVER go to some other country and start waving the US flag around and DEMAND that the people of that country GIVE ME STUFF FOR FREE!!!
The “free” insurance provided to others will not pay for abortion. On the other hand, my insurance — which my husband’s employer pays a bundle for — DOES pay for abortion because, frankly, it’s a lot cheaper for them than paying for a delivery (or paying for a child born prematurely or with other problems) and, of course, they get a flat “family” premium that covers all kids in the family so the fewer the better from their perspective. And this is true for almost all private insurance in the U.S. Yet strangely I haven’t heard of any big movement for Christians to decline health insurance from their employers. In fact, I’ll bet you most Chrisitans who are now outraged about “Obamacare” haven’t even bothered to check if their own insurance covers abortion or not.
However — at this point you are just flailing around totally off-topic.
“The “free†insurance provided to others will not pay for abortion.”
Answer:
[b]New Catholic Bishops Memo: Abortion in Health Care Despite Obama Order[/b]
http://www.lifenews.com/nat6210.html
Catholic Mom- The article referanced Massachuetts here is an article to help clarify what happened in Massechuetts http://www.boston.com/news/local/…/04/…/er_visits_costs_in_mass_climb/. You simply can not shove 20 to 30 million peole into the health care system as it is structured. The Cost of health care reform has now increased 116 billion dollars and doesn’t go into effect for 4 more years (either we were lied to or the authors of the law were imcompetent or both). So catholic mom, how do we increase or health care capacity and deal with these issues with out bankrupting the nation. You limit options, increase wait time for proceedures etc. Part of the reason your colonoscopy is expensive is because of legal costs and tort reform was left out of health care! Good luck with your ER visits in the future..
“In fact, I’ll bet you most Chrisitans who are now outraged about “Obamacare†haven’t even bothered to check if their own insurance covers abortion or not.”
This is always the left-wing “Christian†answer, isn’t it? Two wrongs make a right!
Please provide one iota of evidence that most Christians don’t check if their insurance covers abortion or not.
It’s kind of telling that I checked and my insurance doesn’t/didn’t provide for abortions and yours does, don’tcha think Catholicmom? It’s also deeply ironic that I (a Protestant) pay more attention to Catholic Bishops on this matter than you (a Catholic) do.
One of appears not to care. Let the discerning reader decide.
Sick and Tired. You’re a government employee. You didn’t really have to check your insurance to know it doesn’t cover abortion. As for whether or not Christians in the private sector with group insurance know whether or not it covers abortion, let me just propose asking the first 10 you meet. Since I have never yet met one Christian (or seen one comment on a blog) who said “oh my gosh I just found out my insurance covers abortion, now I feel that I should opt-out so that premiums are not paid to the company that could be used for abortion” I have to believe this is not a major issue in Christian consciousness at this point.
In our current system which you seem to think doesn’t need reforming, I HAVE to have the insurance I have (or no insurance).
Before my husband got his current job, we worked for ourselves and had individual insurance, for which we were paying an arm and a leg. After my husband got his job we were informed that it was ILLEGAL to maintain our individual policy if we were even ELIGIBLE for group coverage, even if we declined it (because individual insurance is supposed to be for people who can’t get group coverage). So the government would NOT ALLOW us to pay for our own health insurance. A brilliant system that clearly needs no reform eh? Under the current system, if I wanted to go out and shop for insurance that doesn’t cover abortion I wouldn’t be allowed to do it. Strangely, I hear nothing from the bishops (or anyone else) about this.
Dave B. Completely agree with you about tort reform. That’s the powerful lawyers lobby for you. Of course, that is by no means the only reason (or even the major reason) that my combined colonoscopy costs if paid out of pocket, rather than by insurance, would come to $13,000. It has more to do with the fact that average income for gastroenterologists in my area is about $325k and for anesthesiologists about $375k.
Catholic mom- I work at a teaching hospital and when the residents leave here they are $250,000 to $500,00 in debt. They have worked horrendous hours and sacrificed time and often family time to become good doctors, they earn every cent they make. Please read Inc magazine and the fellow who is working on proceedure and process to aid people who suffer from spinal cord injury and the amount of education, money and time he has put into this and guess what..it may not work and have all been in vain..our health care system has become so innovative because of the rewards for innovation. This is about to come to an end because the government will restrict treatment because of cost. Read about the NICE panel in England and breast cancer treatment. When I started as a nurse the only colonoscopy available was “the steel stallion” and it was not a widely used proceedure. Today colonoscopies saves lives and reduces suffering because flexible sigmoidascopes. Some one took a risk to develope them so you can complain about the cost instead of suffering from cancer and a major surgery..
So, Catholicmom, you are OK with Obamacare forcing us to pay for abortion through our tax dollars?
Dave B — I understand what doctors put into the training and what a difficult job it is — my sister is married to one. On the other hand, there are plenty of doctors who are making a fortune. Check out the cars they drive and the houses they live in. I live in a “techie” neighborhood — all a bunch of scientists, engineers, and computer programmers. No doctors at all. They live in a much more expensive neighborhood.
Which is irrelevant to the point of the article and this discussion, of course. We aren’t discussing “do doctors make too much money” (whatever, if anything, that means in a free market). Although it does have some bearing on “why does medicine in the U.S. cost so much?”
I see that we have the usual red herrings and ignorance and fondness for collectivism and immoral, anti-Constitutional actions from the State from the same old person.
RE: “I have absolutely no doubt that you will blame that on government interference with health care . . . ”
Absolutely! Your bill is so high because you are freaking paying — through your private insurance — for the GROSSLY UNDERPAYING — BELOW THE LEVEL OF COST OF CARE — MEDICARE AND MEDICAID PATIENTS.
Those artificially fraudulent rates set by The Wonderful State mean that private insurance must MAKE UP FOR the losses, which means private insurance is charged far more.
That, plus the State’s granting of monopolies to public hospitals, eliminating much to most of the private competition means that we have HUGELY INFLATED RATES.
You know . . . the bitterness of the Collectivists at those of us who do not believe that the State should control and manage our healthcare industry is really astounding. And some of them claim to be Christians too.
Yes, but the point of the article isn’t “why medicine costs so much”, it is about the fact that the ERs are becoming more and more overcrowded…so much so, that folks with an emergency will not be seen in time. Obamacare has only made things worse and cost $115 Billion more. More misery for everyone isn’t a particularly good solution. Of course, that seems to be the liberal answer. If A has something good and B does not, let’s take the good thing away from A so that everyone is equal…regardless of the fact that A worked for it and paid for the good thing. Since B has not and since B does not get that good thing, the Liberal solution is to take the good thing away from A. And if you protest, well then, you must be a “bad” Christian!!!
Mom you brought it up so if you don’t want to discuss it fine. Cramming 20 to 30 million more people into a health care system not designed, structured or staffed for that increase in patients will lead to delays, increases in time to be seen, delayed diagnoses and treatment with decreases in innovations. Look at Massachusetts and how a very simlar system has almost bankrupted the commonwealth!
[blockquote] my combined colonoscopy costs if paid out of pocket, rather than by insurance, would come to $13,000. [/blockquote]
Medicare pays the GI doc ~$390 for diagnostic colonoscopy. The facility fee is probably ~$800. One has to be careful of funny money bills. There are “amount billed” and amount payed.
One of my patients looked at a bill for one of my more complicated procedures, and it was for $100,000. She assumed that I got that! I wish. In fact, the hospital was actually paid about $22,000 (the implant cost about $20,000) and I get paid $1,200. And I have to pay all my employees. So my actual cut? Maybe $300-500 for a four hour procedure that can maim the patient if something goes wrong.
One of the residents who was working with me last week was telling me about a patient who he had just seen in the ER. The patient already had an appointment at the local community health clinic at the exact same time. He chose to go to the ER instead. When asked why he said that it was $2.00 either way and he gets to see a doctor in the ER rather than a nurse practitioner.
I just got called into the ER, and I asked the ER doc if they have the capacity for the increased visits by the new medicaids. He simply laughed. ER wait times are 2-8 hours and the waiting room is filled with non-emergencies. The author feigns surprise when the new medicaid patients will worse ER overcrowding. Give me a break.
I recently fixed a facial fracture of a woman that got beat up by the boyfriend. How much did Medicaid pay me? $21.50. I am not kidding. I would rather do it for free. I should have be cause I am sure that my employees’ time to hassle with Medicaid was more than $22 bucks. I routinely do trauma surgeries that literally cost tens of thousands of dollars. When I do it for free, I get the patient’s gratitude. If I do it for Medicaid, I get paid pennies on the dollar and little thanks – it is expected of me.
My husband had an emergency appendectomy last month. Hospital (ER experience was outstanding) billed $21,606. Insurance actually paid $3337, we paid $371. Same pattern with other bills (surgeon, labs, pathology, etc.) Amount billed is far, far more than the actual settlement. This is some kind of shell game to establish “billed” prices in order that they won’t go broke on us when we need care after we go on Medicare. I wish there were some way I could ensure that my internist gets paid appropriately for my care after I’m 65.
[Comment deleted by Elf – Commenters are requested to address the thread and not other commenters and to avoid overheated reactions to other comments – thanks]
Katherine,
This is not actually a game because if you didn’t have insurance this is the amount they would actually come after you for.
My M-I-L is Israeli. About 20 years ago she was visiting us and had a life-threatening emergency requiring a minor surgical procedure. With insurance the fee would have been something like $5,000. Israelis have national health care and they are covered when they travel outside of Israel. Her healthcare company contacted the hospital and tried to settle the bill. They tried to charge them something like $40,000. Finally the Israelis ended up saying something along the lines of “take us to court” and the hospital settled for like $7k. We were a young married couple and my mother-in-law was terrified that they would come and take our house or something. However, as it happens, the Israelis are almost as good as negotiating as the American insurance companies. 🙂
Did anybody actually read the article we’re supposedly discussing on this thread or did they just jump right to their hot buttons of illegal aliens and mouchers on medicaid and collectivists trying to undermine the constitution? The article says:
So it is NOT talking about increases due to more people being on medicaid. (And it is certainly not talking about increases due to illegal aliens.) It is talking about increases due to more people having insurance. It then goes on to say that the reason these people may end up going to emergency rooms is NOT because they’d just as soon give their $2 to the ER than to a doctor but BECAUSE THEIR ARE NOT ENOUGH DOCTORS AVAILABLE. (Sorry to shout but no one seems to have actually read the article.) MOST of the article is not about the ER at all, it’s about the need to train more doctors so that people won’t NEED to go to the ER.
But don’t let the actual content of the article dictate anything said on the thread.
I did read the article and there aren’t enough doctors because we just added another 30,000,000 people (20,000,000 of which are illegal aliens) to the load on the health care system without allowing time for the system to adjust and compensate. And, we are now going to pay an extra $115 BILLION dollars for the priveledge of waiting longer to be seen by the doctors that are available.
Oh, and in addition, we all have to pay for abortions now!
I read the article (before my first comment) and that is my take on it.
Again, I hope those that voted for it all have to wait in line with the rest of us.
Warning: Straw man alert!…
[blockquote] The one and only thing I said was that it was astounding to hear a Christian say that the big problem with health care reform is that all those poor people would now be flocking to emergency rooms and getting cheap treatment and watching TV and getting hot meals and probably trying to trick their doctors into giving them narcotics. [/blockquote]
I did NOT say the big problem with health care reform was all that. I do say that there are no disincentives for Medicaid patients to go to the ER for hang nails, etc., and that there are plenty of wrong incentives to do that. Catholic mom then said I was lying about the hot meals and narcotic seekers even though I see it daily. But she knows better than I because she has a brother in law who is a doctor.
As I said, everyone, save the author of the article and Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi knew that adding millions to Medicaid would add to the already extremely overtaxed emergency rooms. One aimply can google “medicaid use ER” to find no shortage of articles. E.g.,
[url=http://www.patientpowernow.org/2008/07/11/medicaid-strains-emergency-uninsured/ ]Medicaid strains ER more than uninsured[/url].
[url=http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=104272 ]ER Visits Mostly by Medicare, Medicaid Recipients[/url]
[url=http://www.statehousecall.org/medicaid-patients-use-the-er-more-than-the-unemployed] Medicaid Patients use the ER More than the Unemployed[/url]
and from Massachusetts:
[url=http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2008/10/06/costly_er_still_draws_many_now_insured/ ]Costly ER still draws many now insured[/url]
So my question: does the author, Mr. Obama, Mrs. Pelosi, Mr. Reid, not know how to google?
Robroy-On post 19 I linked this article-http://www.boston.com/news/local/…/04/…/er_visits_costs_in_mass_climb/-It is interesting that so many “experts” want to argue with people that actually provide health care and have looked at the issue to some degree from a professional perspective! It is easier to go to the ER at your convience, even if you have to wait, than schedule an appointment and wait!
#34, see my entry #7. This is a crucial matter. The shortage of doctors will mean that, rather than seeing a doctor, you will increasingly see a substitute of some sort. There are already a good many of them; the idea is sou8nd enough taken by itself. However the effect of adding millions will mean that this practice will be extended “downhill” so to speak. The person you see will be less and less qualified medically. The only alternative is the long waiting line, getting ever longer. Can we increase the number of MD’s? Maybe, but this will take many years.
So now the issue becomes whether the influx of illegals ought to make the serious problem much worse. This has precious little to do with Christianity or Good Samaritans, a great deal to do with the rights of American citizens and whether they are to be subordinated to the support of illegals.
You know, I am still amazed that this can become such a smoking problem. If they immigrants are here illegally, why are they allowed to remain in spite of the law? My annoyance is aggravated, I suppose, by this rather obvious demand, that illegals stay home and fix their own country. We did this in 1776 and it worked fairly well, it seems. They COULD do the same, and we should send them back to do it. Larry
Robroy, your original statement:
My response:
and later:
Your response:
Please note that my summary of your original statement was closer to your original statement than your summary of it.
Furthermore, I did not “call you a liar.” I asked you to provide evidence. The evidence you give is “I am a doctor and I see it daily.” The evidence I give is “my brother-in-law is a surgeon and he daily sees people who are going to die because they WAITED to come into the ER until their condition was fatal.” I’d say we’re even, evidence wise at this point, and I do not respond that “you’re calling my brother-in-law a liar.” My brother-in-law is a saint, by the way, who works tirelessly with illegals and the poor and anybody else who needs his help and who does so much pro bono work that he is the only doctor I know that drives a car that’s worse than mine! So when my brother-in-law tells me that he prays for health care reform, I tend to take his statements very seriously and not as I would “my hairdresser’s cousin said it so it must be true.” He is also a devout Catholic who takes the abortion question very very seriously.
Larry B wrote:
I believe (and I understand you don’t) that it has everything to do with it. Do you understand the significance of the fact that the guy in the parable was a Samaritan rather than a Jew?
What you still keep missing in the story of the Good Samaritan is that there was not soldier standing there with a sword forcing the Samaritan to to take care of the wounded man and pay for his medical expenses. That’s what Obamacare is…it’s a sword at our throat forcing us. In addition, the man that is wounded isn’t the innocent traveler, but rather one of the bandits. Finally, not only are we being forced to pay for the expenses of the wounded bandit, we are also paying for the murder of the babies in the local village…all at sword point.
That is the Obamacare parable. This is a raw power grab over every aspect of our lives and it was done against the will of the majority of the people of this country. I know you want us to just “get over it” but we aren’t going to. We are going to fight this and fight this and fight this some more until it is repealed. It is a vile law. It is tyranny and it will not stand.
One last thing, when the Samaritan brought the wounded man into town to be taken care of, the wounded man died waiting in line in the street because other soldiers were forcing millions of other Samaritans to take other bandits into the same town to use the same in at the same time.
I hope that clears up the whole parable issue for you. It doesn’t have the effect you desire it to because it doesn’t fit the facts of what is going on. This isn’t an act of mercy and kindness to a stranger. It is a compulsory action coerced by a massive government that has very bad consequences.
oops… “same inn at the same time”
CM, I am NOT saying that because of lack of a safety net, people don’t delay seeking medical advice and, as a result, present with more advanced disease. I see that every day, too. I am NOT saying that we do not need health care reform.
But instead of improving the problem, the Obamacare monstrosity of a bill has made matters worse and has probably compromised any chance at true healthcare reform. Instead of slowing the head long rush to health care disaster in this country, it has accelerated the pace and collapse will come sooner. Glen Beck argues that this is intentional and that it’s purpose is to use the coming collapse to completely socialize medicine. I can’t argue with him.
A perfect example is the federally mandated expansion of Medicaid. Medicaid was already a disaster before this. I AM saying that handing out more Medicaid cards is a terrible way to improve the safety net. This is amply demonstrated by the Massachusetts experience, yet that experience was ignored.
BTW, asking for “evidence” is BS. How am I to do that? Every hospital that I have worked at gives meals. There is and never will be a study looking at this. There is no shortage of web references to programs that attempt to curb narcotic seeking in the ERs – with “attempt” being the key term.
robroy: What would your ideas be for health care reform? I’m asking this completely seriously as I don’t doubt that many improvements could be made on the present bill but I rarely hear them and I would actually like to hear some good proposals.
Sarah wrote:
My response
Elf, please delete Sarah’s statement as above. This was a direct comment about me personally calling me ignorant and fond of immorality and unconsitutional actions. I am completey entitled to respond if moderators let such comments stand. My response to her did not come within mile of this level of personal attack. In fact all I said about her per se was that she was fond of ad hominem attacks. And she gets away with because if you respond, your comment is deleted. If you wish to remove my defense, in all fairness you must remove her attack. Her response to complaints about this behavior on her own blog is “if you don’t like it, blog elsewhere” but apparently she is able to do this here as well.
Sorry ’bout the delay.
Number one: I would take the focus of the “uninsured” and focus on the safety net. Beef up community health centers. They are so much more efficient than anything else. Obamacare misses this important point entirely. In fact, by giving medicaid cards to people, more will go to the ERs versus the community health centers.
Number two: allow physicians to deduct pro-bono work from their taxes. Simple enough. Your brother-in-law and I could use some help taking care of the uninsured.
Number three: explore “medical homes”. This is part of Obamacare but is dwarfed by huge problems that the bill causes.
Number four: start moving away from employee based coverage. Why can’t Billings, Montana, say, offer a health plan? How about a credit union? When I go to Blue Cross and ask for their best deal for my 8 employees, they laugh at me and give me a policy and tell me to take it or leave it.
Number five: Allow purchasing insurance across state lines. I can by Geico insurance for my car and Geico is based in Maryland. Why not health insurance? It’s insane.
Number six: Allow insurance companies to be insurance companies. Their profit margins are not out of line with other businesses.
Number seven: Tort reform. The hidden cost of defensive medicine is real and really huge.
Number eight: Speaking of emergency rooms, stop paying for non-emergent care at emergency rooms. You have had back pain for the past 11 months? Then your back pain isn’t an emergency. ER’s are required to have a nurse to a screening triage exam. If the nurse feels that it is a viral UTI, then she needs to give the patient the phone number to the local community health center. But the government shouldn’t pay the hospital for patients with diagnosis of viral UTI.
robroy: I don’t know what a “community health center” or a “medical home” is.
Numbers 2, 4, 5, and 7 I agree with completely. Employer-based health care is, IMHO, the cause of most of the problem to begin with. It shields people from any sense of the real cost of their health care and screws everybody else who doesn’t work for a large company. If having health insurance is some special corporate benefit like having use of a company car or a corner office, then sure, it makes perfect sense for it to be a perk of corporate employement. But if the consensus is that EVERYBODY needs health insurance, then it’s an insane way to do it.
From the NEJM: [url=http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=3377&query=TOC ]Health Care Reform and Primary Care — The Growing Importance of the Community Health Center[/url].
And from Encylopedia Galactica (wikipedia): [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_home ]
Medical home[/url].
Regarding number 6: We have this article: [url=http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Massachusetts-Health-Insurance-Companies-Shut-Down.aspx ]
Rant: Massachusetts Health Insurance Companies Shut Down!
[/url]. From this we have the quote:
[blockquote] The State of Massachusetts has stated they will begin levying fines against the companies if they do not start issuing quotes to individuals immediately using last years rates. [/blockquote]
In other words, the beatings will continue till morale improves. Make all sorts of new requirements of insurance policies which fly in the face of actuarial facts and expect insurance policies not to rise??? And this phenomenon also:
[blockquote] This means they can wait until they get sick, or injured before they have to buy the insurance. Then when the don’t need it anymore they drop it.
Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts reported a week ago that on 2009 alone they had 936 customers sign up for insurance and stayed on for only three months or less with their monthly claims averaging over two thousand dollars per month. [/blockquote]
Insurance companies are suppose to ignore this?
If an insurance company wants to offer a plan with high deductibles and limited lifetime payouts and I want to take my chances, why can’t we do business?
If I were on the BoD of an insurance company in MA, I would explore dissolution. The legal environment makes being there unsustainable.