But then it’s a shame these people didn’t show as much zeal in the safegarding the faith once delivered, but show in protecting their claim to all the property in TEC. Property which they neither bought, maintain nor use.
Just so everyone is aware of the dollar amounts. There are a total of $800,000 budgeted in the 2007 budget for litigation and other attorney expenses under two items.
This is a matter of concern because Mecklenberg County NC estimates that the minimum cost of a one day trial is $200,000+. I realize that none of the suits are in Charlotte. That yields a baseline for litigation on a per suit basis
Factor in the sheer amount of litigation that the ECUSA is engaged in as well as the fact, even though he’s giving them a 10% discount, that Mr. Beers is a very pricey New York attorney. It’s apparent that ECUSA is probably over budget in litigation expenses.
I’m well aware that ECUSA has a $290 million endowment, and can probably afford eternal litigation. But just because it can, doesn’t mean it should.
I’m not even going to mention fiduciary responsibility, ECUSA’a already shoddy record of financial practices and the need for non-profits to be fiscally transparent.
from the ENS article:
[blockquote]If these persons would acknowledge the undisputed provisions of the Canons, and the court cases enforcing them, there would be no need for litigation, and there would be no need for The Episcopal Church or its Dioceses or its Parishes to expend on litigation funds that should be devoted to the mission of the Church.”[/blockquote]
Resistance to the never-quite-passed and confiscatory Denis Canon is futile. You will be assimilated.
This is not an ECUSA response to the question of litigation expenses, it is an ECUSA counter attack attempting to discredit those who asked the questions.
The ECUSA mentality shown in this letter brings to mind the mentality shown by the World War II German leadership as the Allies were crossing the Rhine and the Soviets were over running East Germany.
They seem confused between civil law (which involves property law easily against them) and court cases that are merely precendent that can be overturned and are situational in nature (situation ethics coming back to bite them).
In Colorado none of the property repossessed by the diocese is being used as a church–all those are in default or leased out.
So is it better for property held in trust to become a night club or a CANA church? Schori easily, from the depths of her spiritual being, says: night club…
In response to the bishops’ question about how much money the national church has spent, the easiest and most credible thing to do would have been simply to refer to the latest monthly financials, which can be found in the link Plainsparson provided. According the October financials (the latest posted), TEC spent YTD $470,521 on “Property Protection for Mission – Legal Costs.” This is 94% of the $500,000 budgeted for this expense category for the entire year. Why didn’t Hicks and Vanderstar simply refer to this total, or at least reference the financials? Perhaps they were sloppy in their snarky response, but this omission suggests there could be litigation expenses hidden elsewhere.
Really have a legally top heavy Executive Council, eh? Now there is a surprise. Bishops, deputies, and Executive Council – the Province of lawyers. And here I was thinking it was the Province of the USA.
Silly me.
“According the October financials (the latest posted), TEC spent YTD $470,521 on “Property Protection for Mission – Legal Costs.†This is 94% of the $500,000 budgeted for this expense category for the entire year.”
========================================
Money “spent” is not money ‘owed.’
What YTD legal payments were due from ECUSA at the time of the “October financials?”
Despite the claim that no money has been spent from the Church pension fund, Stacy “Stripper” Sauls authorized $25,000 to be spent from the Pension Fund earlier in the year.
On the one hand, TEC feels that they are fulfilling their fiduciary duty to sue, on the other they violate their fiduciary duty to the Pension Plan by authorizing funds to be spent on an unrelated (to the pension) legal matter.
Additionally, #11 makes an excellent point. Money spent is not money owed. They lawyers admit that they know the amount, why not just disclose it?
In Colorado I have heard from reliable sources that the Episcopal Diocese liquidated 2.5 million dollars in unrestricted investments to fund their property disputes—and judging from the level of pettiness in their various briefs and the obvious fee churning going on by their attorney, I would imagine this amount is near spent–but none of this has been revealed publicly and questions at diocesan convention were rebuffed…
A number of churches are just waiting for us to have caused the diocese to use up all their funds designated for property suits so they can leave themselves without so much hassle.
And too, are law suits the only way to go?
We had fast tracked our case with the diocese in commercial court for a straight up or down decision by a judge–but the diocese continues to file motion after motion and adding people to be sued personally, and is being joined by the National Church—running up the bill, prolonging the process, and making it very personal and vindictive…we are simply not dealing with a glimmer of Christian inclination by them…but we are not surprised that this is the case from people who have rejected the Lordship of Christ and the authority of scripture.
We believe, however, that our response is our witness…and will live that out no matter the cost or consequence.
I have heard figures for the legal costs well into the seven figures in Colorado from other sources. Of course, we have a “balanced budget” with an ever so small asterisk stating that legal costs are not included. The budget is more Harry Potter than accounting. After submitting budgets two years in a row with deficits of $65 k (that were adjusted upwards), they submited one this year that is neither in the red or black by $10; no, magically it was perfectly balanced. So much for transparency.
There is a [url=http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/7896/ ]letter of resignation[/url] by a trustee of the diocese of Minnesota found at SF which reports financial shenanigans in that diocese, as well.
#3…TEC does not have unlimited funds for litigation. Even Vioxx with a 2 billion reserve did not have unlimited funds for litigation. Up until they recentlysettled, I believe that Vioxx had spend approx. 1 billion in litigation.
Let’s get away from the impression that organizations like TEC can go on litigating indefinitely. They cannot. With enough lawsuits throughout the country, TEC will eventually fold from a legal standpoint. Even if TEC win some battles, they will still lose by getting a near empty building.
When the dust settles on the initial property lawsuits, there will be parishioners and attorneys like me who will bring a lawsuit against TEC for breach of fiduciary trust as it relates to the use of restricted funds–this will be round two.
How many of the suits are actually funded by or with 815 money? Many of the current suits are spearheaded by the diocese. 815 may join the fray, but that cost is probablymuch less than if it was an “815” suit. This will change in the coming weeks when we in SJ vote to change our constitution (at least I assume it will pass again). Then 815 must take the lead to sue the diocese.
Nice. They obscure the real question and so fail to provide the answers that were requested by the bishops. But they have no problem leading off with a good mudslinging by flogging the dead horse of bishop’s prior protests over WO and other trends in TEC over the past thirty years.
If in fact TEC has an endowment of 290 million it isn’t all that much for an international denomination if you consider by comparison that Bowdoin College has an endowment of 650 million, Union College 365 million and tiny Wabash College 370 million.
#5, Thank you for the link. I did not know that data was there. Some very interesting numbers and trends.
I was right about ECUSA burning through the budgeted amount for the litigation, but it looks as though there may be some serious belt tightening going on at 815.
And as a fine and upstanding graduate of Wabash College…home of the “Little Giants”, I’d much rather send money from my will there than to 815 (God willing that doesn’t happen any time soone!).
But then it’s a shame these people didn’t show as much zeal in the safegarding the faith once delivered, but show in protecting their claim to all the property in TEC. Property which they neither bought, maintain nor use.
Nothing like a morning dose of [i]Pravda[/i].
Reckon we’ll have to keep waiting for an answer.
Just so everyone is aware of the dollar amounts. There are a total of $800,000 budgeted in the 2007 budget for litigation and other attorney expenses under two items.
This is a matter of concern because Mecklenberg County NC estimates that the minimum cost of a one day trial is $200,000+. I realize that none of the suits are in Charlotte. That yields a baseline for litigation on a per suit basis
Factor in the sheer amount of litigation that the ECUSA is engaged in as well as the fact, even though he’s giving them a 10% discount, that Mr. Beers is a very pricey New York attorney. It’s apparent that ECUSA is probably over budget in litigation expenses.
I’m well aware that ECUSA has a $290 million endowment, and can probably afford eternal litigation. But just because it can, doesn’t mean it should.
I’m not even going to mention fiduciary responsibility, ECUSA’a already shoddy record of financial practices and the need for non-profits to be fiscally transparent.
#3 – good notes, just one minor correction, Mr. Beers is a DC attorney:
http://tinyurl.com/2prc9a
If you want to look at the finances of TEc you can go here:
[url=http://tiny.cc/2cwQu] tecfin [/url]
You can find monthly statement of operations, annual audits, etc. Seems awfully transparent to me.
Where is the same infor for the Anglican Communion Network or for Common Cause??
from the ENS article:
[blockquote]If these persons would acknowledge the undisputed provisions of the Canons, and the court cases enforcing them, there would be no need for litigation, and there would be no need for The Episcopal Church or its Dioceses or its Parishes to expend on litigation funds that should be devoted to the mission of the Church.”[/blockquote]
Resistance to the never-quite-passed and confiscatory Denis Canon is futile. You will be assimilated.
This is not an ECUSA response to the question of litigation expenses, it is an ECUSA counter attack attempting to discredit those who asked the questions.
The ECUSA mentality shown in this letter brings to mind the mentality shown by the World War II German leadership as the Allies were crossing the Rhine and the Soviets were over running East Germany.
They seem confused between civil law (which involves property law easily against them) and court cases that are merely precendent that can be overturned and are situational in nature (situation ethics coming back to bite them).
In Colorado none of the property repossessed by the diocese is being used as a church–all those are in default or leased out.
So is it better for property held in trust to become a night club or a CANA church? Schori easily, from the depths of her spiritual being, says: night club…
In response to the bishops’ question about how much money the national church has spent, the easiest and most credible thing to do would have been simply to refer to the latest monthly financials, which can be found in the link Plainsparson provided. According the October financials (the latest posted), TEC spent YTD $470,521 on “Property Protection for Mission – Legal Costs.” This is 94% of the $500,000 budgeted for this expense category for the entire year. Why didn’t Hicks and Vanderstar simply refer to this total, or at least reference the financials? Perhaps they were sloppy in their snarky response, but this omission suggests there could be litigation expenses hidden elsewhere.
Really have a legally top heavy Executive Council, eh? Now there is a surprise. Bishops, deputies, and Executive Council – the Province of lawyers. And here I was thinking it was the Province of the USA.
Silly me.
“According the October financials (the latest posted), TEC spent YTD $470,521 on “Property Protection for Mission – Legal Costs.†This is 94% of the $500,000 budgeted for this expense category for the entire year.”
========================================
Money “spent” is not money ‘owed.’
What YTD legal payments were due from ECUSA at the time of the “October financials?”
Is it another $100K, $300K, #1,000,000?
Despite the claim that no money has been spent from the Church pension fund, Stacy “Stripper” Sauls authorized $25,000 to be spent from the Pension Fund earlier in the year.
On the one hand, TEC feels that they are fulfilling their fiduciary duty to sue, on the other they violate their fiduciary duty to the Pension Plan by authorizing funds to be spent on an unrelated (to the pension) legal matter.
Additionally, #11 makes an excellent point. Money spent is not money owed. They lawyers admit that they know the amount, why not just disclose it?
Very interesting and astute observation by AnglicanFirst. It may be a problem with my computer, but the tecfin link appears to be disabled.
In Colorado I have heard from reliable sources that the Episcopal Diocese liquidated 2.5 million dollars in unrestricted investments to fund their property disputes—and judging from the level of pettiness in their various briefs and the obvious fee churning going on by their attorney, I would imagine this amount is near spent–but none of this has been revealed publicly and questions at diocesan convention were rebuffed…
A number of churches are just waiting for us to have caused the diocese to use up all their funds designated for property suits so they can leave themselves without so much hassle.
And too, are law suits the only way to go?
We had fast tracked our case with the diocese in commercial court for a straight up or down decision by a judge–but the diocese continues to file motion after motion and adding people to be sued personally, and is being joined by the National Church—running up the bill, prolonging the process, and making it very personal and vindictive…we are simply not dealing with a glimmer of Christian inclination by them…but we are not surprised that this is the case from people who have rejected the Lordship of Christ and the authority of scripture.
We believe, however, that our response is our witness…and will live that out no matter the cost or consequence.
Too bad these two were not in the Virginia court room last month.
bb
I have heard figures for the legal costs well into the seven figures in Colorado from other sources. Of course, we have a “balanced budget” with an ever so small asterisk stating that legal costs are not included. The budget is more Harry Potter than accounting. After submitting budgets two years in a row with deficits of $65 k (that were adjusted upwards), they submited one this year that is neither in the red or black by $10; no, magically it was perfectly balanced. So much for transparency.
There is a [url=http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/7896/ ]letter of resignation[/url] by a trustee of the diocese of Minnesota found at SF which reports financial shenanigans in that diocese, as well.
#3…TEC does not have unlimited funds for litigation. Even Vioxx with a 2 billion reserve did not have unlimited funds for litigation. Up until they recentlysettled, I believe that Vioxx had spend approx. 1 billion in litigation.
Let’s get away from the impression that organizations like TEC can go on litigating indefinitely. They cannot. With enough lawsuits throughout the country, TEC will eventually fold from a legal standpoint. Even if TEC win some battles, they will still lose by getting a near empty building.
When the dust settles on the initial property lawsuits, there will be parishioners and attorneys like me who will bring a lawsuit against TEC for breach of fiduciary trust as it relates to the use of restricted funds–this will be round two.
How many of the suits are actually funded by or with 815 money? Many of the current suits are spearheaded by the diocese. 815 may join the fray, but that cost is probablymuch less than if it was an “815” suit. This will change in the coming weeks when we in SJ vote to change our constitution (at least I assume it will pass again). Then 815 must take the lead to sue the diocese.
Nice. They obscure the real question and so fail to provide the answers that were requested by the bishops. But they have no problem leading off with a good mudslinging by flogging the dead horse of bishop’s prior protests over WO and other trends in TEC over the past thirty years.
Classic.
If in fact TEC has an endowment of 290 million it isn’t all that much for an international denomination if you consider by comparison that Bowdoin College has an endowment of 650 million, Union College 365 million and tiny Wabash College 370 million.
#5, Thank you for the link. I did not know that data was there. Some very interesting numbers and trends.
I was right about ECUSA burning through the budgeted amount for the litigation, but it looks as though there may be some serious belt tightening going on at 815.
And as a fine and upstanding graduate of Wabash College…home of the “Little Giants”, I’d much rather send money from my will there than to 815 (God willing that doesn’t happen any time soone!).