I consider this a moment of sanity and light–KSH.
Now the next question – when are clergy who administer communion to unbaptized people going to be brought up on presentments? (crickets…)
But those who are already doing it will continue to do it, and it will come up again, and again.
#1, what a wonderful idea! I wonder if the PB has been doing that.
Thanks be to God! This is great news from General Convention.
Well, that’s it. CG’s one moment of sanity and light. Doubt there will be any others. I’d lay Vegas odds on that!
Did they vote to do anything to stop it in the 60 dioceses where the bishops openly allow it or the other 30 where the bishops know it is going on, don’t personally approve of it, but are unwilling to discipline the sacrilegious clergy? Call me when that happens.
Mega dittos to all posts above especially #2 and #5. But we haven’t seen the last of it. Those who practice it, clergy and bishops alike, will continue to do so. They may go underground for a short stint but they will be back claiming to play the role of a “prophet” (akin to 5 year olds playing “house” but with less maturity and comprehension). I suspect that it could be already practiced by the majority of parishes, if not now I assume it will be by GC ’15. I expect it to pass by GC ’18 or ’21.
Um, call me crazy or a Pollyanna, but can we simply be glad it went down in flames and leave the future for, well, the future? I firmly believe that God is ultimately in charge and, with Him, there are myriad possibilities in the future.
Thanks be to God.
What, like [i]”we don’t need to do anything to prevent it’s reappearance because God will do it for us”[/i] Pollyanna? Liberals play the political game far better than conservatives IMO. Conservatives tend to look at something like this and assume the war is won. They go home and let down their guard. Liberals/reappaisers recognize that it is only a battle and the war is not over.
It is also extremely important for the dwindling ranks of reasserters to keep the hypocracy of the present wicked administration of this denomination in the forefront. This denomination expends huge resources on bending and warping the rules of the organization to chased down reasserters. Is it too much to ask that they enforce the rules on reappaisers as well?
Indeed, God is in charge. Amen! But we are his agents to work out His will in this world.
Wow, that’s horrible advice. Not planning, while the lousy opponents plan for candidates, votes, and elections, is how we got in to this mess. I can’t beleieve that you have not learned that lesson from all this. I don’t blame them a great deal for uttingtheir beliefs in to action; I blame our side for not resisting them and acting on our beliefs, and preserving what we have inherited.
There’s what’s possible, and thhen there’s what’s likely.
farmers don’t wait until harvest day to begin planting.
Not being a member of TEC anymore I have avoided commenting on GC. But just a technical correction. The Evangelism Legislative Committee did this. The Evangelism Commission is a Standing Body of TEC.
#9 and #10, Dear friends, the lessons that I have learned in my life are that all of the planning, foresight, and politicking in the world cannot change or delay what is meant to be or influence processes and people who are out of your control. The best that we can do is celebrate and savor every success and good fortune and deal courageously with every setback.
I am one of those for whom every day is a gift because i must live in that day and thank God for it. As is often the case with me, I could very well find myself hospitalized and undergoing life-saving treatment tomorrow with no warning. I cannot control these things but I can control my reaction and response to them. No action, planning, or changes on my part can change the outcome. Believe me, I’ve tried over the years.
To be honest, the day that my membership in a church is dominated by mistrust, anxiety, strategy, and politicking, I would leave and not look back. However, I understand that humans and human organizations are innately political creations and subsets vie for political dominance. I eschew that when it comes to church. My trust is solely in the Lord and the institution is only beneficial and commendable when it brings us closer to Him.
But, as in my situation, the local expression is often far removed from the political actions of the institution. And, as my rector wrote to the parish, in those cases, we simply put our heads down and shoulders to the wheel and do the work that the Lord has given us to do, clinging always to the Cross in times of difficulty.
Please pray. Any ground not taken and any ground taken back are because of prayer.
Well, it was NOT evangelism, anyway. But it will not go away. People eating cookies and koolaid at VBS are not taking communion and neither are the unbaptized or seekers or deluded at HE if they choose to have a go. Article XXIX: “The Wicked, and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ; yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ: but rather, to their condemnation, do eat and drink the sign or Sacrament of so great a thing.”
With regard to communion without baptism, here’s a timely comment from D. Bonhoeffer
[i]Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confessionâ€¦. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate…[/i]
from here [url=http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2010/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-cheap-grace-vs-costly-grace/]Bonhoeffer on cheap and costly grace[/url]
#9 — this reminds me of what a conservative priest once told me: “When Liberals lose, it’s only for a little while. When Conservatives lose, it’s forever.” This is only a short-term setback for the liberals.
“#9 and #10, Dear friends, the lessons that I have learned in my life are that all of the planning, foresight, and politicking in the world cannot change or delay what is meant to be or influence processes and people who are out of your control. The best that we can do is celebrate and savor every success and good fortune and deal courageously with every setback.”
Teatime2, I don’t know if you really read paradoymoron’s post at #10.
“planning, foresight, and politicking” were not done (certainly to nothing like to the degree that should have been done) by the orthodox in TEC. That is why it is in the position that it is in. Whereas you seem to start from an (incorrect) assumption that they were done, but didn’t work. The opposite is the case.
It sounds as though you are happy with the part of Matthew 10:16 which says we should be “innocent as doves”, but not ready to accept the part which calls on us to be “shrewd as snakes”. But both are commanded of the Christian.
RE: “However, I understand that humans and human organizations are innately political creations and subsets vie for political dominance.”
Yes indeed — and these organizations involve “planning, foresight, and politicking” which influence processes, people, and structures.
RE: “Dear friends, the lessons that I have learned in my life are that all of the planning, foresight, and politicking in the world cannot change or delay what is meant to be or influence processes and people who are out of your control. The best that we can do is celebrate and savor every success and good fortune and deal courageously with every setback.”
How wonderful that Teatime is able to celebrate and savor the successes and “fortune” that the planning, foresight, and politicking of others in the world in “innately political creations and subsets” brings about, by the grace of God.
RE: “My trust is solely in the Lord . . . ”
Who uses human beings in innately political creations and subsets to plan, exercise foresight, and politick in order to bring things about or defend against evil actions of others doing the same things.
RE: “I eschew that when it comes to church.”
Obviously, it’s up to each individual to determine whether they choose to act or simply sit and wait and hope that the Lord blesses through the various means available to Him, including other people acting.
I hope your health improves, Teatime.
All I’m saying is it would be a good thing to rejoice in the victory without feeling the need to ruminate over what may or may not come in the future. I’m sorry that creates offense. (For every Scripture passage that was flung at me to make me look like a fool or ingrate, I could have posted my own Scriptural retorts that support my preferences but I don’t roll that way.)
I have a hard time believing, however, that whenever something unexpectedly good happens in the other elements of your lives such as winning a prize, your first thought is “well, yes, but I’ll bet I lose next time or never win again.” If it is that way, may God love you extra.
Thank you, Sarah. It’s a matter of doing the best you can. I may regret announcing often in my younger days, though, that I’d rather be dead than bored. God has blessedly made sure that I’m neither, lol.
Teatime- the reason we (at least I) am not rejoicing is that it is in no way a victory. Victory implies a better condition than you had before the battle, which this does not accomplish. All that happened was that the committee (not either house) decided it will not recommend this resolution. Doesn’t mean the HoB or HoD won’t come up with something equally bad. And the real reason they rejected it (regardless of what they said) was that since this is a prayer book rubric, not just a canon, they can’t change it without authorizing a prayer book revision- a pretty big undertaking. So big and expensive that even gay marriage won’t warrant it until 2015, if the HoB has its way. Of course, when they do revise the BCP- watch out, CWOB will probably be in there.
And it is not as if they did anything to end the sacrilege- or slow down its spread. Unless you are in one of about a half dozen dioceses where the bishop will actually discipline clergy for violating the Sacrament, it was happening in your diocese this morning.
Establish something that reverses this and deposes the bishops and priests who practice it, and you have a victory. Until then, you have a successful delaying action on the part of the opposition that makes folks like you feel good about the “orthodoxy” in TEC.
Question- if the resolution (C040) was “rejected outright” (per the headline, why does TEC’s GC site continue to list it as awaiting committee action?
Note: I posted this at 4:52 pm, EDT, Sunday, July 8- so things may change with updates).
It shows another hearing at 7:30 tomorrow morning. For something that was “rejected outright”, it is getting a lot of hearings (tomorrow will be #4)
“Iâ€™m sorry that creates offense.”
You haven’t created offence – we just disagree with you on this point!
“(For every Scripture passage that was flung at me to make me look like a fool or ingrate, I could have posted my own Scriptural retorts that support my preferences but I donâ€™t roll that way.)”
I don’t think anyone thinks you are a fool or ingrate, although we do have the right to disagree with you. If you want to comment on others’ use of scripture then you are most welcome to, but no-one is drawing adverse inferences if you don’t. Particularly when you are facing serious personal issues, and our thoughts and prayers are with you.
#21 based on committee deliberations, the resolutions are being reworked and there is more to come in the coming week–i.e. today. But it does *seem* that the essence of the first resolution was not supported by committee so the central idea did not garner support to bring to the floor of the Houses.
Having being to and watching a large number of GC’s, nothing is over until it is over.