President Bush, acknowledging the risk of recession, embraced about $145 billion worth of tax relief Friday to give the economy a “shot in the arm. ”
Bush said such a growth package must also include tax incentives for business investment and quick tax relief for individuals. And he said that to be effective, an economic stimulus package would need to roughly represent 1 percent of the gross domestic product””the value of all U.S. goods and services and the best measure of the country’s economic standing.
“There is a risk of a downturn,” the president said in his remarks at the White House.
White House advisers say that in current terms, 1 percent would amount to around $145 billion, which is along the lines of what private economists say should be sufficient to help give the economy a short- term boost.
It sure would be nice if both sides could agree on a reasonable plan and get it passed fairly quickly.
Aye. The Fed Chairman, yesterday, all but gave them permission to go out and spend some money…..and in an election year! They’ll go crazy. It’ll be wild.
bl
THis doesn’t make sense in the long term. We need good solid long range planning. Not short term feel good reactionary policy. THough I could use the extra cash- I need a strong country for at least another century.
Perhaps the war(s) could be ended and the money refocused on domestic infrastructure, education and health care reform- all long term issues that would help to build and strengthen our weakening republic.
Hey, what’s another few billion in debt anyway? Just continue on with the cutting revenues (taxes) while doing nothing to scale back spending and soon the the dollar and the peso will be about equal.
National Debt is not at 9 trillion and counting.
Here is the exact figure from the treasury office:
9,187,584,466,089.71
We really can’t take anymore of this overspending.
Typical Washington response …. spend more of our money in inefficient measures that probably won’t help one bit!
Sorry worldpeas, but the correct figure is the percent of GDP, not some random figure that has no context or relation to the production of the economy.
That’s a bit like saying “Sarah’s debt is at $10,000 — we can’t take any more of this overspending!” . . . and then discovering that my annual income is $1,000,000.
Not to mention the fact that every time there has been a tax decrease, revenue to the government has risen.
We not only need a tax cut, but the one that Bush mentions is way too small.
Of course . . . I am always pleased when the State allows me to keep more of my money, so I would certainly not look a gift-horse in the mouth.
Sarah,
Your correct in saying that a good way to look at the debt is a percentage of GDP. Here is a nice factual graph that shows that at the end of Carter’s term the debt was 30% of GDP After Reagan-Bush I it was 69% of GDP after Clinton it was 59% now nearing the end of Bush II it is back up too 65% with projections that it iwill continue to rise.
It is helpful to know the dollar amount as well. Most of the debt is what is owed the social security trust fund, money you and i and our empoyers pay to the government in trust. The money is to be used to pay for retirement. Unfortunately congress is allowed to raid the trust- while at the same time many claim it is a “broken” system.
Next year the interest (paid out of current reciepts) alone on the debt is close to what we spend on our entire defense budget. If fiscal responsibility was the name of the game in washington- then instead of paying interest our government could be using the cash for other items. The interest for 07 was roughly 474 billion dollars.
You are incorrect to say it is a gift horse your seeing. It isn’t. The portion of income we pay to taxes is our contribution to the larger society- money that will do what we can’t do as well alone. Your looking right at your society and what you contribute. To see it simply as a gift and to “keep your own money” is a short sited and potentially destructive way to think.
Not investing in our infrastructure, education, and the general well being of our society is foolish.
The dollar is tanking, the manufacturing industry is all but gone, the financial sectors are moving over sees, oil is on the rise, there is a mortgage crisis, and the national debt is escalating beyond understanding.
And the President tries to buy us off with enough money for one months rent.
We’ve had enough short sited bi-partisan bickering. We need true visionary leadership and a populace that wants to roll up it’s sleaves and get to work.
If not- we will be buried by China, India and Europe. All economies larger, older, and growing stronger and with much greater taxes than our own.
The President missed the opportunity of a century after 911. Instead of calling us to work, sacrifice and international cooperation – he called us to go shopping and go to war.
I don’t care which party- I just want real leadership. No more lies, let make america what it once was.
GDP in 06 is said to have been 13.6 trillion.
Debt was 9.8 trillion.
It won’t be long before the Debt is higher than the GDP-
But Hey- I’ll take my $1000 as soon as I can get! Cause man it will be greaaaaat!
So it’s like Sarah has a debt of $9800 and an annual income of say 13,600. And she keeps borrowing a $1000 or more a year- and never bothers to repay her debt.
Year one Sarah owes $9800 at say a modest 6% interest her interest would be: $588 about 1/2 a months income. She pays the interest. (Of course she with better debt managment she could have bought some shoes, food, clothing and helped her poor neighbor out of bind, but she couldn’t)
The next year she borrows some more money because she needs to buy a gun and some bullets- so she borrows about $1000. Now her debt is 10,800. She needs to pay about $648 in interest now. She is lucky to have a bank that just let’s her do that. Unfortunatly- things are getting more expensive- Her landlord raised her rent, the cost of food is up, and her car isn’t working as well. But instead of dealing with that she decides to go on a trip and take most of her family with her to buy more guns- she broke the last one. So she needs to borrow some more money- THis time she takes out an addition $1500. No her debt is 12,300. Unfortunatly her boss cut her salary by 1% because the company is slowing down. Her income is no about 13,500.
Her new interest will be $738. You get the picture-
eventually sarah’s kind of thinking will kill us.
The point is that our economy is in big trouble. Most people realize this. Nobody seems to know the best solution. It would be prudent for people to prepare for recession as best as possible. Families need to take care of family members. Churches need to take care of their own members. Don’t look to your government (state or federal) for help.
You do realize that during perhaps the greatest economic expansion in recorded history (Britain’s industrial revolution) the UK’s national debt was several times greater than GDP? It’s a far more complex situation than people tend to realize. Yes, vast debt isn’t great, but it’s not an automatic death sentence to the economy leaving us no choice but rank socialism either.
Eventually (I’m speaking of decades, maybe centuries if the Lefties don’t win too often) the choice will either be to raise taxes enough to pay for a Euro-style welfare state (which no one has yet done, by the way) and kill the golden goose, or cut services. I pray we will have the wisdom as a society to do the latter, but I fear for my unborn children that we will take the easy way and do the former.
The current economy is overdue for a significant correction as a large part of the gains of the past 10 to 12 years are a House of Cards- and we never did get a significant real correction of the dot.com nonsense. Thus a “recession” as part of a reversion to norm is inevitable. It cannot be prevented or modified in any significant way by the Federal government- impotent in this regard. But that won’t prevent a lot of political nonsense.
I worry about my kids. A much more serious long term issue is the irredeemable IOUs we are writing and giving out to future taxpayers. The self centered vision of the post WWII generation and my own will eventually come home to roost. And if you think Social Security is a problem- just look at Medicare financing.
Perhaps we could all at least agree that “more government” is not a good answer?
Anytime the government wants to give back some of my money…I’ll gladly take it. I already work 79 days per year just to pay Federal Tax.
In order to pay this largesse to the vast flock of sheep, the Government will print an extra load of money and borrow more both at the same time. This will result in even more inflation* and a further deteriorating dollar. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot in the long run!
* Note: Inflation is over double the amount that the Govt. lies to us about. “They” perform an egregious amount of cooking the books to avoid paying higher cost of living adjustments.
Well at leats $10,000 a year per family is going to Iraq to get blown to smithereens by people who don’t want us there.
Personally, I’d rather have health care. That would infuse money into the economy so that people could have more money to spend….
RE: “You are incorrect to say it is a gift horse your seeing. It isn’t.”
No, Worldpeas, I am correct. It is my money, which I make, which the State takes away from me in order to redistribute it to whoever is in favor with the State that decade or century.
You see . . . I’m a constitutional conservative, not a liberal. So you and I have very different values, goals, and foundational worldviews.
RE: “The portion of income we pay to taxes is our contribution to the larger society . . . ”
It’s a “contribution” at the point of a gun, Worldpeas, enforced by the military and jail. If that’s your notion of a “contribution” then perhaps you could “contribute” to the Anglican Communion Network. ; > )
RE: “Your looking right at your society and what you contribute.”
Yeh, I sure am — and the “society” to which I am “contributing” worsens, thanks to the State’s favoritism and thievery and redistribution.
RE: “Not investing in our infrastructure, education, and the general well being of our society is foolish.”
LOL. Why would I be interested in what you deem to be “foolish” . . . ?
RE: “The dollar is tanking, the manufacturing industry is all but gone, the financial sectors are moving over sees, oil is on the rise, there is a mortgage crisis, and the national debt is escalating beyond understanding.”
LOL. I’m panicked! ; > )
The national debt as a percentage of GDP is just fine. Better, in fact, than the post WWII years. There is no “mortgage crisis” except for the tiny tiny tiny percentage of homeowners who bought when they should have continued renting. The manufacturing industry — as with the “farming industry” — always decreases in percentage of GDP as an economy develops from third-world to first-world and beyond. And yes — oil is on the rise, and I know plenty that we can do about it . . . none of which you would at all appreciate, since you’re a liberal. ; > )
RE: “And the President tries to buy us off with enough money for one months rent.”
I’ll take any return of my money that I can get. But I agree — tax reform should be far broader and deeper than the President envisions. End the income tax and property tax, move to a national sales tax, and fire all the tax accountants.
[i]End the income tax and property tax….[/i]
Next thing you’ll be walking on the grass, contrary to the posted signs.
17 “Personally, I’d rather have health care. ”
Doesn’t your diocese require it for professional clerical positions?
RE: No, Worldpeas, I am correct. It is my money, which I make, which the State takes away from me in order to redistribute it to whoever is in favor with the State that decade or century.
Sarah, Actually it isn’t your money, and you should stop making it. The money, if your refereeing to the paper notes, that you exchange with others as legal tender, belongs to the government.
RE: You see . . . I’m a constitutional conservative, not a liberal. So you and I have very different values, goals, and foundational worldviews.
Okay, so you’re a CC. (Carbon Copy?) of others ideas. I haven’t defined myself- so please don’t define me. Your simply wrong.
RE: It’s a “contribution†at the point of a gun, Worldpeas, enforced by the military and jail. If that’s your notion of a “contribution†then perhaps you could “contribute†to the Anglican Communion Network. ; > )
But then again, so are so many other things (at the point of a gun enforced by military and jail); like the constitution and the bill of rights. Just what are you conserving? I would what the ACN has to do with this is beyond me. Though they are revolutionaries who seek to consolidate power into the hands of the few and create feudalistic Church. (Overlords, I mean Bishops)
RE: The national debt as a percentage of GDP is just fine. Better, in fact, than the post WWII years. There is no “mortgage crisis†except for the tiny tiny tiny percentage of homeowners who bought when they should have continued renting. The manufacturing industry—as with the “farming industryâ€â€”always decreases in percentage of GDP as an economy develops from third-world to first-world and beyond. And yes—oil is on the rise, and I know plenty that we can do about it . . . none of which you would at all appreciate, since you’re a liberal. ; > )
Oh, Okay- Good arguments here. I guess, just because you say so.
RE: I’ll take any return of my money that I can get. But I agree—tax reform should be far broader and deeper than the President envisions. End the income tax and property tax, move to a national sales tax, and fire all the tax accountants.
Sure, It’s that simple. Now what is it you do?
“belongs to the government”
This statement, in the context of the US economy, is as bizarre as Bruno’s Hindu ceremony in LA. First, it might only be considered vaguely relevant in the case of currency such as Federal Reserve notes that we put in our wallets. But these represent only a miniscule fraction of the money in the economy. Second, the value of the money is indeed private property in Sarah’s case as well anybody else’s. Only in totalitarian states would this statement be vaguely relevant, and even then that is not uniformly so.
21- the rest of your commentary and response to Sarah is either absurd (e.g. creating a feudalistic church and convolving ‘overlords’ with ‘overseers’) or downright insulting.
Worldpeas’ view is actually somewhat frightening, closer to Pharonic Egypt than to even the Soviets. Are you impatient that we have not yet enacted 100% taxation so the State can have their money back, and the good bureaucrats can get to make ALL our economic decisions for us? Nothing a lefty hates more than individual freedom.
Andrew717
Back the post which the conversation is to follow. Unfortunately Sarah took us way off track with her rather self-centered view point of “it’s all mine”.
Now, I never suggested “raising” taxes in any way. Nor did I suggest that the state should make all our decisions for us. Nor am I a lefty.
Now is it a good policy to make a rash knee jerk reaction in an election year and give tax payers checks of a small trival amount to buy them off in the hopes it will prevent a recession? No it isn’t.
Now here is what Greenspan said a few years ago, which is what I was arguing earlier:
[blockquote]
Greenspan on the Deficit
Feb. 25, 2004
Alan Greenspan
“… under a range of reasonably plausible assumptions about spending and taxes, we could be in a situation in the decades ahead in which rapid increases in the unified budget deficit set in motion a dynamic in which large deficits result in ever-growing interest payments that augment deficits in future years. The resulting rise in the federal debt could drain funds away from private capital formation and thus over time slow the growth of living standards.
[/blockquote]
Now- what our polititians need to do is work on their uncontrolled spending habits- and work to reduce the national debt. I will stand by my suggestion that ending our war spending, moving revemues to long term projects: education, infrasturcter and health care reform, and moving the energy economy away from dependance on foriegn oil would do more for our country in the long run then anything else we could do.
Educating the next generation and the current work force will produce skilled workers for the new economies emerging.
Building Infrastucture creates the ability for society to keep moving and rapidaly growing. (think the interstate system and the internet, both government created)
Health Care Rerfom- this is an emergeny needed attention. The system is about to tumble in on it’s self.
Energy independence would do much to create more peace in the world then anything else. If not- war with China is a real possibility.
re #18
The money only has worth if there is an institution backing it. The dollar is regulated by the state. It’s not the state’s money, but without states, money is whatever we say its worth.
But, unlike others, I’m glad I live in a democracy, and I’m willing to pay for it. To some, it seems like robbery to pay for the mechanics that guarantee commerce, which seem to spring up from nothing. That was not always the case: the government had to do a lot of regulating to make commerce viable.
Perhaps Sarah should start printing her own money for her own work.
A different way would be to have a single “rent” on property that pays for public use (say, water, sewage, roads) and regulates natural monopolies; a gradual tax that begins on people making more than $400,000 a year, and a confiscatory inheritance tax, to protect us from small monarchies. There should be no sales tax, as this inhibits commerce.
Render unto Caesar….
26- Sarah prints money whenever she writes a check. If you don’t trust her check, ask for a “Federal Reserve Note” which is nothing more than a check on the Federal Reserve Bank and backed by the full faith and credit of the US Treasury. They will even print a new one just for you, if you ask.