Empathy like that demonstrated by the HOB and PB Schori, I suppose?
Empathy like initially agreeing then reniging bishops on settlements? Empathy like canons usage per Beers/Schori/HOB?
I’m confused I thought we were “waging reconciliation” but obviously I missed the Marxist lens for that – and probably this as well.
A call for a bit too little a bit too late to make any difference.
We need grace, but I think justice will be meted out, as persistent sin brings its own recompense, now or later. Try the Apocalypse for a more picturesque telling forth of these truths.
Sorry Dan..nice “feel good” idea with very little reality. How shall I emphasize with deposing Godly men like Cox and Burney as just the beginning of the list of atrocities committed by ECUSA. I am still waiting for Fr. Dan to explain why his Bishop Little goes to Rowan to lobby for VGR. Let me first try to employ empathy on that reality spin.
Intercessor
Elizabeth Kaeton calls Martins’ article “more chilling than the worst of the most scorching comment on SFiF” because Martins refers to empathy as a strategy for winning.
Empathy, combined with good judgment, is good in itself. When we understand how others think, feel, and perceive the world, we can better minister to them, reason with them, and find common ground with them as appropriate (if only to agree to part amicably).
Other things equal, people who listen and empathize will come out ahead of people who wallow in their own preconceptions.
Intercessor [#2]: Martins doesn’t propose that we empathize with revisionist misdeeds but with the misguided individuals who do the deeds. Thomas Merton wrote that “only love—which means humility—can exorcise the fear which is at the root of all war.”
PS to #4: I agree with Kendall and others that ECUSA is way past the point at which continued institutional unity is realistic or desirable. The two sides increasingly believe different gospels.
But understanding the perceptions and struggles of individuals on the other side (not the ideology but the people) is part of our ministry and witness.
I agree with Irenaeus. Our opponents are children of God, same as all of us. We still have a (very difficult) duty of ministry and positive witness ahead of us.
I dare suggest empathy as a strategy for winning is better than the winning strategy 815 (with Kaeton’s+ support and participation) is already employing. Which is rather devoid of empathy.
I know this will get a well deserved warning from the Elves but… I was rather irritated by Elizabeth Kaeton’s+ attempts to chime in. To critique Dan’s “empathy as strategy for winning” (which is a bad misreading) assumes she understands and practices empathy herself.
And “both sides need to give a little”? You have got to be kidding me. The “right” has been giving for years nay decades. And what has the “left” given? +Schori. Spare us please.
From today’s lectionary:
Col 4:5-6 5 Conduct yourselves wisely toward outsiders, making the most of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer everyone.
& this:
Matthew 5: 1- 10 (NRSV) 1 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
My take: these passages support Fr. Dan’s main assertion – a call for empathy.
Blessings to all who are: poor in sprit, mournful, meek, hungering & thirsting for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers, persecuted for righteousness sake,
“TEC may have, in your view, “walked apart” from some in the Anglican Communion in 2003, but it is the “orthodox” who are walking away. It is they who do not want to be in the same church with the likes of me. It is painful but I understand that they must do what they feel is best for the health and well being of their souls”.
I’m about as Anglo-Catholic/orthodox as someone can get. I’ve never said I don’t want to be in the same church as Elizabeth Kaeton, the only thing I’ve ever said is that, were I clergy, I would not put a blessing on her relationship or call it “marriage”. That’s not the same thing as not wanting to be in the same church as someone, which is a completely overblown, self-serving exaggeration.
As far as the “scorching comments on StandFirm”, Ms. Kaeton should first look at her past comparison of Anne Kennedy to Susan Smith–maybe she has apologized to Anne since, but not that I’ve heard.
Empathy like that demonstrated by the HOB and PB Schori, I suppose?
Empathy like initially agreeing then reniging bishops on settlements? Empathy like canons usage per Beers/Schori/HOB?
I’m confused I thought we were “waging reconciliation” but obviously I missed the Marxist lens for that – and probably this as well.
A call for a bit too little a bit too late to make any difference.
We need grace, but I think justice will be meted out, as persistent sin brings its own recompense, now or later. Try the Apocalypse for a more picturesque telling forth of these truths.
Sorry Dan..nice “feel good” idea with very little reality. How shall I emphasize with deposing Godly men like Cox and Burney as just the beginning of the list of atrocities committed by ECUSA. I am still waiting for Fr. Dan to explain why his Bishop Little goes to Rowan to lobby for VGR. Let me first try to employ empathy on that reality spin.
Intercessor
Elizabeth Kaeton calls Martins’ article “more chilling than the worst of the most scorching comment on SFiF” because Martins refers to empathy as a strategy for winning.
Empathy, combined with good judgment, is good in itself. When we understand how others think, feel, and perceive the world, we can better minister to them, reason with them, and find common ground with them as appropriate (if only to agree to part amicably).
Other things equal, people who listen and empathize will come out ahead of people who wallow in their own preconceptions.
Intercessor [#2]: Martins doesn’t propose that we empathize with revisionist misdeeds but with the misguided individuals who do the deeds. Thomas Merton wrote that “only love—which means humility—can exorcise the fear which is at the root of all war.”
PS to #4: I agree with Kendall and others that ECUSA is way past the point at which continued institutional unity is realistic or desirable. The two sides increasingly believe different gospels.
But understanding the perceptions and struggles of individuals on the other side (not the ideology but the people) is part of our ministry and witness.
I agree with Irenaeus. Our opponents are children of God, same as all of us. We still have a (very difficult) duty of ministry and positive witness ahead of us.
I dare suggest empathy as a strategy for winning is better than the winning strategy 815 (with Kaeton’s+ support and participation) is already employing. Which is rather devoid of empathy.
I know this will get a well deserved warning from the Elves but… I was rather irritated by Elizabeth Kaeton’s+ attempts to chime in. To critique Dan’s “empathy as strategy for winning” (which is a bad misreading) assumes she understands and practices empathy herself.
And “both sides need to give a little”? You have got to be kidding me. The “right” has been giving for years nay decades. And what has the “left” given? +Schori. Spare us please.
From today’s lectionary:
Col 4:5-6
5 Conduct yourselves wisely toward outsiders, making the most of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer everyone.
& this:
Matthew 5: 1- 10 (NRSV)
1 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
My take: these passages support Fr. Dan’s main assertion – a call for empathy.
Blessings to all who are: poor in sprit, mournful, meek, hungering & thirsting for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers, persecuted for righteousness sake,
“TEC may have, in your view, “walked apart” from some in the Anglican Communion in 2003, but it is the “orthodox” who are walking away. It is they who do not want to be in the same church with the likes of me. It is painful but I understand that they must do what they feel is best for the health and well being of their souls”.
I’m about as Anglo-Catholic/orthodox as someone can get. I’ve never said I don’t want to be in the same church as Elizabeth Kaeton, the only thing I’ve ever said is that, were I clergy, I would not put a blessing on her relationship or call it “marriage”. That’s not the same thing as not wanting to be in the same church as someone, which is a completely overblown, self-serving exaggeration.
As far as the “scorching comments on StandFirm”, Ms. Kaeton should first look at her past comparison of Anne Kennedy to Susan Smith–maybe she has apologized to Anne since, but not that I’ve heard.