The Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori
The Episcopal Church USA
815 Second Avenue
New York, NY
Dear Bishop Katharine,
I received word of your letter through a colleague who had seen it on the internet. Without the internet, I may never have known that you had written such a personal, yet sadly ironic, letter to me.
Unfortunately, you appear to have been misinformed about key matters, which I hope to clear up in this letter.
1. I am not visiting a church in the Diocese of Georgia. I am visiting a congregation that is part of the Church of Uganda. Were I to visit a congregation within TEC, I would certainly observe the courtesy of contacting the local bishop. Since, however, I am visiting a congregation that is part of the Church of Uganda, I feel very free to visit them and encourage them through the Word of God.
2. The reason this congregation separated from TEC and is now part of the Church of Uganda is that the actions of TEC’s General Convention and statements of duly elected TEC leaders and representatives indicate that TEC has abandoned the historic Christian faith. Furthermore, as predicted by the Primates of the Anglican Communion in October 2003, TEC’s actions have, in fact, torn the fabric of the Communion at its deepest level.
3. May I remind you that the initial reason the Lambeth Commission on Communion was appointed was because of unbiblical decisions taken by TEC in defiance of repeated warnings by all of the Anglican Instruments of Communion. The Windsor Report was produced and accepted in amended form by the Primates at our meeting in Dromantine, Northern Ireland, in February 2005. It is, therefore, quite ironic for you to be quoting the Windsor Report to me. Nowhere in the Windsor Report or in subsequent statements of the Instruments of Communion is there a moral equivalence between the unbiblical actions and decisions of TEC that have torn the fabric of our Communion at its deepest level and the pastoral response on our part to provide ecclesiastical oversight to American congregations who wish to continue to uphold the faith once delivered to the saints and remain a part of the Anglican Communion. Your selective quoting of the Windsor Report is stunning in its arrogance and condescension.
4. You and your House of Bishops rejected outright the Pastoral Scheme painstakingly devised in Dar es Salaam, and to which you agreed. You have, therefore, left us no choice but to continue to respond to the cries of God’s faithful people in America for episcopal oversight that upholds and promotes historic, biblical Anglicanism.
5. An important element of the Dar es Salaam agreement was the plea by the Primates that “the representatives of The Episcopal Church and of those congregations in property disputes with it to suspend all actions in law arising in this situation.” This was something to which you gave verbal assent and yet you have initiated more legal actions against congregations and clergy in your short tenure as Presiding Bishop than all of your predecessors combined. I urge you to rethink, suspend litigation and follow a more Christ-like approach to settling your differences.
Finally, I appeal to you to heed the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5.38ff, “Leave these [churches] alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop [them]; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Yours, in Christ,
The Most Rev. Henry Luke Orombi
ARCHBISHOP OF CHURCH OF UGANDA.
My goodness! A very bold and forceful response. Well done!
A masterpiece. This brilliant reply by Archbishop Orombi is superb in every way. It makes me so proud to worship at a Ugandan church!
Alas, the deep tear in the fabric of the Anglican Communion just continues to grow worse and worse. And it will go on doing so as long as the deluded but well-intentioned leaders of TEC keep refusing to repent for their outrageous and totally unwarranted behavior.
But on the positive side, the evidence keeps multiplying that the New Reformation is here to stay. It will continue to grow and gain momentum. Especially as long as the PB keeps pulling stupid publicity stunts like her letter telling ++Orombi to stay away from one of his own churches. And as long as the brave leaders of the Global South keep demonstrating such courageous and magnificent leadership.
David Handy+
Eternity Anglican, Richmond (Uganda, Diocese of Luweero)
Well said too.
“Your selective quoting of the Windsor Report is stunning in its arrogance and condescension.”
“…yet you have initiated more legal actions against congregations and clergy in your short tenure as Presiding Bishop than all of your predecessors combined.”
Religious leaders don’t have to fudge-speak.
My post on this letter from VOL
“I certainly concur with the other commentators on this post.
If I may add one additional observation — there comes through this letter (and indeed in Archbishop Henry’s preaching and teaching) the deep humility that comes with knowing one is a redeemed sinner.
Dr. Schori will certainly be tone deaf to that nuance. Not only do I find her pronouncements pompous and pretentious (e.g. bovine flatulence in her message for the Feast of Feasts), but she seems not to believe in sin — or for that matter in redemption.”
I also share Fr. David’s (Comment #1) about being in a Church of Uganda Parish.
Dean+
Assisting
All Saint’s Anglican
Rochester NY
Mukono Diocese, Church of Uganda
That is an outstanding letter! It is forceful and straightforward while speaking the truth in love. Praise God for such bishops!
Proof that those raised to the status of Bishop can profess the true Faith of the Church and can do it in language that is clear, forceful, and understandable even among those of us who are not “academics.” Do you suppose that ABC and PB can read clear Englislh better than they can write it?
Only paragraph 1 addresses ++Katharine’s original letter. The rest is just grandstanding.
Finally, I appeal to you to heed the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5.38ff, “Leave these [churches] alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop [them]; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Perhaps the good Archbishop should heed this advice and stop trying to take churches that are not his.
Brian (#8),
You have got it exactly backwards. The PB is the one who did the grandstanding. She didn’t even send the letter to him that was supposedly written to him. As ++Orombi points out at the start, if someone else had not called his attention to her “letter,” he wouldn’t even have known about it.
And ++Orombi isn’t “trying to take churches that are not his.” He is not looking for churches in the U.S. to take over, as if he were somehow out to expand his religious empire or franchise. Rather, he is simply responding to a pastoral emergency situation, as his letter makes very clear.
Archbishop has acted in a way that is totally honorable and above reproach. It’s the PB who has acted like a complete jerk.
David Handy+
So, his letter is just as petulant as Katharine’s was. No surprise there.
[i]”Leave these [churches] alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop [them]; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”[/i]
Anybody who holds up Gamaliel as anything other than a blundering nut case should be embarrassed. There are few statements in the Bible which are more patently false than his. Look, the Mormon Church is doing great, so it must be from God, right? There are more Muslims than Catholics, so Islam must be from God, right?
Perhaps the good Archbishop should heed this advice and stop trying to take churches that are not his.
“take” churches? Are the people in these churches property to be owned by the separate Provinces? If they belong to anyone, isn’t it to Christ? Don’t all churches and Christians belong to Him?
But it’s the buildings you’re really complaining about, isn’t it.
Heh.
Sweet, sweet letter.
Magnificent letter from a magnificent leader.
#9
Katharine’s letter was published May 12. You don’t honestly think that Henry Luke’s response, if mailed, has reached 815 yet, just three days later, do you? Even if she mailed hers, it probably hasn’t gotten to Uganda yet.
But this is all silly. Neither letter was written to the person the letter was addressed. Both were written for their adoring cheering fans. There was no reason to mail them.
10. Sidney, Acts holds up Gamaliel as the voice of reason on the Sanhedrin. The Jews still respect his opinions. Acts isn’t backing the logically fallacy of arguing on the basis of majority opinion, rather it is backing the idea that God has a plan and He will show this plan in our lives.
14. I read both, and adore neither individual. I would assume that both were written for me to read as well.
++USA accuses ++Uganda of sheep stealing on a grander scale. But isn’t it a rule in parish ministry that you can’t steal happy sheep? TEC wants its sheep (and sheep pens) but doesn’t want to care for and feed them. Wouldn’t we all look a little silly asking the Baptist pastor down the street to give back the family that left our church for his?
17. No, ecusa wants the pen, not the sheep. The concept apparently is that the pen is worth more in the balance of things than the sheep.
18. Tom
Perhaps they prefer the pens over the sheep, but will continue to accept the sheep and their wool – as long as they remain sheepish.
This is a tour de force. Thank God for the witness of Henry Orombi.
Brian #8
What may upset you is that Archbisop Orombi is speaking the truth in love. Sometimes our filters don’t allow us to hear the truth, even when it is said in love.
The PB had no more right to tell ++Ormobi not to come to Georgia, than to tell the Pope he couldn’t come to NY. The congregation has left TEC, TEC has no claim on it any longer, just because it is in Georgia. Can TEC claim jurisdiction on the Roman Catholic Churches there? or the Methodists? Of course not. Christ Church in Savanah decided to leave TEC and therefore no longer under the jurisction of the General Convention (yes we can do that – it is a voluntary association). It was the members of Christ Church who wanted the oversight of a faithful Anglican Bishop for which Archbishop Orombi has responded. The Church of Uganda has declared that they are no longer in Communion with TEC because of TEC’s actions in 2003 and since, and therefore fraternal courtesies that would normally be extended between Anglican primates no longer holds true when you don’t recognize them as fraternal any longer. It was TEC who caused this division (as Archbishop Orombi reminded the PB). Lets not lose sight of that fact. When the leadership of TEC repents as has been asked for many times; ceases to act in a non-biblical (and Christian) manner, then there will be much rejoicing within the Anglican Communion as there was when the prodical son returned to his Father. We would be welcomed back with great thanksgiving. I continue to pray for that repentence and conversion.
I find it very sad and telling that these very personal and divisive conversations between church leaders are being held in public on the internet. How many souls have been lost because of this public display (Reminder it was the BP who started this coversation in public, as she has so many others). This is the sin of scandal and is driving people away from Jesus Christ.
As I asked earlier, what could have made Schori send such a letter when it was obvious that Orombi would reply, publicly, the way he did? The response was inevitable, public because the threat from Schori was public.
Is such a reply grandstanding? It is an it isn’t, depending on whether you are for or against Orombi and Schori. Apologists for Schori will surely find it grandstanding. BUt in any case, she asked for it, and now she looks, as was inevitable, impotent, careless, disconnected to reality. How COULD she not see this?
We have spent too much time worrying the bone of her acts, too little time trying to grasp her psychology, too little time searching for the sources of her motives. One thing is clear to me now t hat was not before: She is singularly without imagination, and this partly explains her inability to adumbrate the future. In fact, I have never seen anyone so completely free of imagination. This has far reaching ramifications for what she is capable of. Larry
Trump!
She didn’t even send the letter to him that was supposedly written to him. As ++Orombi points out at the start, if someone else had not called his attention to her “letter,†he wouldn’t even have known about it.
He was already on his way to the US when the letter was sent
“take†churches? Are the people in these churches property to be owned by the separate Provinces? If they belong to anyone, isn’t it to Christ? Don’t all churches and Christians belong to Him?
But it’s the buildings you’re really complaining about, isn’t it.
Of course. My only point is that he expects TEC not to sue and selectively chooses passages to justify the actions of former TEC church members. If the property holds no importance to these people, then give it back to its rightful owners.
But isn’t it a rule in parish ministry that you can’t steal happy sheep? TEC wants its sheep (and sheep pens) but doesn’t want to care for and feed them. Wouldn’t we all look a little silly asking the Baptist pastor down the street to give back the family that left our church for his?
TEC has never had an issue with people choosing to leave. They do have a problem with taking TEC property.
What may upset you is that Archbisop Orombi is speaking the truth in love. Sometimes our filters don’t allow us to hear the truth, even when it is said in love.
I have a great deal of respect for ++Orombi. I also have no doubt he is speaking out of love. He is the one Archbishop to “stand firm’ [if you will] throughout the entire issue. He has never wavered and always says what he means. He has no pretensions to power and is a humble and honorable bishop. My issue with the letter are (a) that it is not a response to ++Katharine’s letter and (b) that his final paragraph applies equally to those who have left.
The PB had no more right to tell ++Ormobi not to come to Georgia, than to tell the Pope he couldn’t come to NY.
An interesting unresolved issue. TEC is the only official Anglican presence in the United States recognized by Canterbury. TEC is in communion with Canterbury. Uganda is in communion with Canterbury. Uganda has attempted to fully sever communion with TEC. However, Uganda remains in communion via Canterbury. So he is not able to ethically enter another Diocese in communion with Canterbury, yet he does so. Just because he does not want to recognize something does not mean it doesn’t exist.
How many souls have been lost because of this public display
I can only venture a guess – zero.
As I asked earlier, what could have made Schori send such a letter when it was obvious that Orombi would reply, publicly, the way he did? The response was inevitable, public because the threat from Schori was public.
The rationale is that unethical actions should be pointed out. It isn’t about who has violated more of Windsor or Scripture or whatever. In the end, each side is following their conscience and demanding that the other side respect this.
[blockquote]How many souls have been lost because of this public display
I can only venture a guess – zero. [/blockquote]
The Episcopal denomination was the fastest declining one in American, last year. This year promises to be much worse with three or four whole dioceses leaving. The kabillion dollar lawsuits that KJS/DBB is posturing themselves to launch will repulse hundreds of thousands. A percentage of those fleeing the conflagration will be lost to the Christian fold. How many? Greater than zero. How many will see the unchristian behavior exhibited by KJS et al and reject the Christian faith? Greater than zero. This is precisely why Paul condemned lawsuits in no uncertain terms.
[blockquote]I urge you to rethink, suspend litigation and follow a more Christ-like approach to settling your differences.
[/blockquote]
[blockquote] My only point is that he expects TEC not to sue and selectively chooses passages to justify the actions of former TEC church members. If the property holds no importance to these people, then give it back to its rightful owners. [/blockquote]
No one said these properties “hold no importance.” Paul’s injunction against lawsuits was to those who probably “in the right.” That is to say, able to win in court. “Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?” Should one expect Katherine Jefferts Schori to act in a Christian manner?
Greater than zero.
I suppose it all depends on your soteriology.
Should one expect Katherine Jefferts Schori to act in a Christian manner?
No. No one among the reasserters believes that ++Katharine is a Christian. However, they all believe that those leaving are Christians. If you put forth the claim that ++Katharine is not a Christian, then you are not able to hold to the standard expected of one.
[blockquote]An interesting unresolved issue. TEC is the only official Anglican presence in the United States recognized by Canterbury. TEC is in communion with Canterbury. Uganda is in communion with Canterbury. Uganda has attempted to fully sever communion with TEC. However, Uganda remains in communion via Canterbury. So he is not able to ethically enter another Diocese in communion with Canterbury, yet he does so. Just because he does not want to recognize something does not mean it doesn’t exist. [/blockquote]
I actually had this discussion at Thinking Anglicans. Brian is working on the premise that the Anglican Communion is a communion (it is a federation) and that communion-ness is a transitive property. Friendship is not a transitive property: I may like Jane, Jane may like Ted, but I might hate Ted. Similarly, Uganda may be in communion with the CoE, and the CoE may be in communion with the TEO, but I hope that it would be obvious to all that the communion between the TEO and Uganda is broken.
“communion-ness is a transitive property”
It’s not actually. The definition of the Anglican Communion is that a Province (or Diocese if you like) is in communion with the See of Canterbury. There is therefore a connection between all Provinces (or Dioceses) in communion with Canterbury. It is similar to the Federal government’s relationship with the States. One State can not refuse to recognize a relationship with another State simply because it wants to. The connection may indeed be tenuous, but the “poison” pollutes the entire body. By refusing to sever ties with the heart, the blood is pumped to all the organs.
Brian from T19 in #24 wrote:
Brian, is it unethical because it violates the constitution and canons of the communion? no of course not there are none. Is it unethical because it violates the historic practice of the Church? Hmmm, be careful how you answer. Holding historic practice as authoritative or normative could prove challenging in your defense of other issues.
Correction:
there WAS a connection……
#29: Brian, so many confusions, misunderstandings, self-contradictions, and false analogies in what you say. Go back and consider the meaning of ‘communion’ – and while you’re at, the doctrine of comity of States.
The Anglican Churches of Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda, and the Southern Cone *do have ‘a presence in the USA’, however much you close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears.
I would love to see an end to all of Schori’s political grandstanding. Are we meant to believe she was incapable of emailing a private message to Orombi (or faxing or phoning the same)? Issuing what is ostensibly a personal ‘letter’ on the internet is simply gesture politics and it rightly invites a rebuke in kind.
Orombi actually understands the historical and ecclesiological character of Anglicanism, as he demonstrated in a substantial piece in ‘First Things’ a few issues back. Schori, by contrast, is very lightweight as a ‘thinker’ – just a series of secular left-liberal talking points – but also (and I don’t say this lightly) amazingly vindictive and destructive towards true Christians. No one could study her actions and words and not escape the conclusion that she is an enemy of the faith.
Brian from T19, permit me to digress from this thread a bit in order to explain a few things, if you will:
None of what you speak about concerning Archbishop Orombi’s purported “invasion” of TEC’s “territory” would ever have happened if TEC had not ignored the rest of the primates’ warnings that they were damaging the fabric of the Communion by their actions. It would never have happened if your Presiding Bishop and others…..Spong and Pike, for example…..had not questioned the divinity of Christ and the authority of Holy Scripture. It would not have happened if +Charles Bennison hadn’t openly stated that “we wrote the Bible, and we can rewrite it.”
None of this would’ve happened, and we reasserters wouldn’t have left TEC for other jurisdictions if we hadn’t been shouted down at conventions, ridiculed and jeered at, scoffed at, had our views ignored or pushed to the rear, if our faithful clergy…..many of whom had many years’ standing in TEC…..hadn’t been threatened, inhibited, and even deposed for daring to disagree with their bishops for good theological reasons.
I won’t bring up the LBGT issue, because that has already adequately covered elsewhere, nor will I raise the issue of women’s ordination…..even though am I adamantly opposed to the ordination of women to the priesthood. That too has been adequately covered elsewhere.
I believe that TEC has been hijacked over the years…..beginning with the early 1960s…..by an insidious movement away from the teachings of the early Church fathers, and towards what is called by some “progressive humanism.” The wants and desires of the individual……”listen to MY story, feel MY pain,” etc, are being heard today……and the Gospel of Our Lord is being shoved aside.
Much is being said about the UN’s Management Development Goals…..and this is commendable, because they ARE important. But when their mention takes the place of preaching and teaching the unchanging truths found in Holy Scripture, and when Christ so often gets short shrift, as He did at my former parish in the Diocese of El Camino Real, then something’s very very wrong!
We argued, we pleaded, and we did everything but go down on our knees and begged TEC to reform and change its ways, and all to no avail.
That’s why our bishop and diocese left, that’s why my wife and I left, that’s why so very many of our friends and families left…..and that’s why so many thousands more are leaving. The end is nowhere in sight.
I’m just an ordinary orthodox Anglo Catholic layman who is willing to stand up and fight for what I know is right….and believe me, there are thousands more like me out there!
“Schori…is very lightweight as a ‘thinker’—just a series of secular left-liberal talking points—but also….amazingly vindictive and destructive towards true Christians” —Gordian [#32]
That’s a fair statement and covers several important points. KJS is strikingly shallow. She is poorly versed in theology and church history. Her agenda consists, to a significant degree, of secular causes transposed into a religious key. She shows scant respect for others’ claims of conscience. She engages in lawless bullying (e.g., of Bps. Cox and MacBurney). She spawns a toxic brood of church-property lawsuits, which will waste money, engender needless bitterness, and ultimately help further debilitate ECUSA. In that sense she functions as an “enemy of the faith” even though she may intend something quite different.
I wouldn’t argue that she’s not a Christian; I don’t know that. Her pronouncements indicate that she is not an orthodox Christian. He deeds suggest that she has little use for orthodox Christians who get in her way. And if she loves her enemies, she hides it well.
No. 22 – Larry – I often disagree with you, but in your post no. 22 you made perhaps, to my thinking at least, the single most perceptive remark about PB Schori – her almost total lack of imagination. I might also add that there isn’t much of a sense of curiosity either. No. 32 – Gordian – I thought Orombi’s article in First Things was remarkable in its history of martyrdom in Kenya, but I was very disappointed that it seemed to propose a hard-core Protestant understanding of Anglicanism. Brian of T19 – I think you have made the best analysis of this particular flap.
robroy [25] asks:
I know of one.
The “et al” is, however, of somewhat broader application than robroy may have intended.
regards,
JPB
The Episcopal – ELCA Called to Common Mission full communion agreement and other Episcopal and Anglican ecumenical agreements from the time of the Bonn Agreement with the Old Catholics of Utrecht in the 1920’s and the Church of South India and Church of North India agreements in the 1940’s and 1950’s are all clear that communion is not transitive. Each of the member churches of the Communion has its own agreement with other churches regarding full communion and shared ministry. For example the Church of England is still bound by the Colonial Clergy Act of the late 18th century that techniclly forbids clergy ordained outside the Church of England from holding a benefice in the Church of England. The Act has been amended to allow the Archbishops to make exceptions, but these are required. Similarly, the various provinces have their own canons about licenses, etc. In the United States clergy may transfer from diocese to diocese only with the permission of both bishops and may not officiate for more than 60 days without license. The ELCA agreement permits Episcopal bishops and Lutheran synodical bishops to authorize specific clergy to officiate in specific ways in the other church, but does not give clergy any right to do so without such permission.
Hope that helps.
Brian #24
“How many souls have been lost because of this public display
I can only venture a guess – zero.”
Herein lies our differences. I have always understood the growing cataclysmic events in ECUSA (or TEC, call it what you wish – its a political statement) as spiritual warfare.
For you to state that there are no souls lost due to the public scandalous display of division within the Anglican Communion is to either reflect a total misunderstanding on your part of the spiritual nature of our being and the nature of the ecclesia or an arrogant statement that implies that the spiritual aspect of a person is not important in these events. Being a practicing member of a Christian community is not like being a member of the yacht club or the Lions. It is to be a member of the spiritual Body of Christ that has been called into the Kingdom of God. The problem is to keep the physical institution (in this case TEC) on that track, concerned for the souls under its care and not to become a secular social services organization. I apologize if I have misinterpreted your response.
It’s very interesting that the diocesan bishop has been left out of the correspondence entirely. Perhaps Bp. Louttit asked the PB for help in the matter – I don’t know. I’m sure he’s irked by the whole matter, but the politically wise thing would have been not to publicize the visit by a weak, foolish letter from the PB inviting an incredibly powerful response from ABp. Orombi.
If Bp. Louttit didn’t ask for help, this would seem to be a further indication that the PB is trying to redefine the authority and power of her office. It’s a further suggestion that she doesn’t know what she’s doing, and either is getting poor advice or not listening to her advisers. One would wonder what her next blunder will be.
Brian, is it unethical because it violates the constitution and canons of the communion? no of course not there are none. Is it unethical because it violates the historic practice of the Church? Hmmm, be careful how you answer. Holding historic practice as authoritative or normative could prove challenging in your defense of other issues.
I can’t violate someone else’s ethics, only my own. My assumption is that ++Orombi holds to Tradition and the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils. Therefore, his incursion is unethical.
Brian, so many confusions, misunderstandings, self-contradictions, and false analogies in what you say. Go back and consider the meaning of ‘communion’ – and while you’re at, the doctrine of comity of States.
The Anglican Churches of Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda, and the Southern Cone *do have ‘a presence in the USA’, however much you close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears.
Gordian, go back and read what I wrote. I never questioned that they have a presence here.
Cennydd, I’m not really sure what you’re addressing, but I agree that this is the way reasserters feel and why they have left. I also agree that many more will leave.
For you to state that there are no souls lost due to the public scandalous display of division within the Anglican Communion is to either reflect a total misunderstanding on your part of the spiritual nature of our being and the nature of the ecclesia or an arrogant statement that implies that the spiritual aspect of a person is not important in these events.
Actually, I’m a universalist, so I do not believe any souls are lost to God. [And just to avoid any stray comments-I am NOT a Unitarian!]
Ralph
++Katharine’s letter has this
“cc: Bishop Henry Louttit
Archbishop Rowan Williams”
Also, she would have had to confer with him since she knew that he did not give permission to ++Orombi
Rob k, the lack of imagination and the absence of curiosity are aspects of the same deficiency. You are surely right however, she is without curiosity. Because of this, she is unable to do what the best minds do, which is pick up a unfamiliar object and rotate it, thinking, wondering, holding contrary hypotheses on this object without the impasse of contradiction. She cannot do this, with the result that she is single-minded and cannot therefore traverse multiple routes at the same time. Accordingly, her thoughts dig a deep ditch which she cannot leave, tunnel thinking, so that the goal of her journey becomes inevitable since it can have only one result. Moreover, her dishwater dullness is a cognate of her absence of imagination.
Does all of this indicate the absence of intelligence? I think not, but what it does indicate is an intelligent, two dimensional being, and this tells us how she will act in the future. She is a hedgehog to a supreme degree, and with no fox in her whatsoever.
I have met two dimensional people before. Some have simply been stupid, and their two dimensionality is a function of their stupidity. This is not Schori’s case, and of those few like her I have seen, I have been impressed – perhaps frightened – that they seem to be lacking a soul in a very literal sense. You all know someone that you think of – and others so think as well – as “”great souled.” It may not be clear what that really means because we have no vocabulary to frame this condition. But we know it when we see it. She is quite the reverse, and I think we may fairly alter an old saying thus “Against the two dimensional, the gods themselves contend in vain.” Larry
This is a terrific letter – Thank you, Lord, for men of integrity like A.B. Orombi:
Brian from T19 :
Brian I think what makes me saddest about all your responses is that all you seem to care about is property, which, well, as Christ would say, “Where your treasure is, there your heart is also.”
How intriguing to think this is all about money and property – how shallow to look at all the suffering of the people who wanted to remain Anglican and were pushed out of their churches by TEC and say that other Anglicans who looked upon them with pity and took them in HAS to be about money.
Bishop Orombi took my parish in and – GUESS WHAT? We didn’t bring one Book of Common Prayer with us – [b]THE DIOCESE OF UGANDA HAS NEVER EVEN ASKED US FOR ONE PENNY OF OUR TITHE IN RETURN. [/b]
Like as in [b]NO MONEY, NO PROPERTY, NO NOTHING[/b].
Sorry to destroy that pat liberal response to this issue – but it’s simply not true, not relevant and has no bearing on the real issues of the case.
Whether you continue to use that as your argument only will demonstrate your unwillingness to face reality or continue your determination to spread misinformation.
The choice is yours.
This should serve as further caution to the Presiding Bishop of TEC to not enter into a battle of wits if you are unarmed.
God Bless Bishop Orombi.
P.S. – I came across the following sentence from Dante’s Inferno. Reminded me of those Episcopal Churches who say that what happens at the national level has no effect on the local church and they simply want to be left alone. Could it also apply to the Archbishop of Cantebury?
“The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.” – Dante
BC in Florida
Hear hear
Brian #40
“Actually, I’m a universalist, so I do not believe any souls are lost to God. [And just to avoid any stray comments-I am NOT a Unitarian!] ”
Thank you for your frank admission. I would assume then that other traditional dogmas in Christianity (the fall (from Genesis), the incarnation, the redemption, the bodily resurrection, etc are also not part of your beliefs as an Episcopalian (and I assume you claim to be one – if not my apologies). If this is true then we are at a place where we cannot have a conversation, because we disagree on the basic fundamentals of what it means to be Christian, and being one how we should act on those beliefs. In another thread there is a conversation going on about why Bishop Lipscomb left the Episcopal Church and went to Rome. I can tell you from the many conversations we had. The Episcopal Church has abandoned any set of base dogma, it has no teaching authority and has (in some places) become a place for people to join and have good fellowship but are not walking as disciples of Jesus Christ. The Roman Church, despite its difficulties, has maintained a teaching magisterium and there is no public disagreement between priests on matters of faith and dogma that have been proclaimed by the Church. It was the lack of that teaching magisterium and the openness to post-modern theology that convince Bishop Lipscomb that he was being called to the chair of Peter. For these same reasons many Episcopalians have found a different answer some of those with Uganda, Kenya, Rwanda, Southern Cone, etc.
I’ll pray for your soul and your conversion (as I do for all who have not found Christ), because God does not want anyone lost.
Brian, I was trying to explain to you, or should I say “get through to you,” that it was the actions of TEC over the past forty years which have caused all of the troubles that we’re experiencing……every single one of them. I could’ve said it in much more explicit terms, but I decided to moderate my remarks.
However, if you’d like me to cut loose with both barrels, I’d be happy to oblige…….except for the probability that the elves would have a field day!
Brian I think what makes me saddest about all your responses is that all you seem to care about is property, which, well, as Christ would say, “Where your treasure is, there your heart is also.â€
How intriguing to think this is all about money and property – how shallow to look at all the suffering of the people who wanted to remain Anglican and were pushed out of their churches by TEC and say that other Anglicans who looked upon them with pity and took them in HAS to be about money.
I never said that.
Thank you for your frank admission. I would assume then that other traditional dogmas in Christianity (the fall (from Genesis), the incarnation, the redemption, the bodily resurrection, etc are also not part of your beliefs as an Episcopalian (and I assume you claim to be one – if not my apologies).
I believe in the Fall, the Incarnation and the Resurrection and am an Episcopalian.
I’ll pray for your soul and your conversion (as I do for all who have not found Christ), because God does not want anyone lost.
Thanks.
Brian from T19 #24:
An interesting unresolved issue. TEC is the only official Anglican presence in the United States recognized by Canterbury. TEC is in communion with Canterbury. Uganda is in communion with Canterbury. Uganda has attempted to fully sever communion with TEC. However, Uganda remains in communion via Canterbury. So he is not able to ethically enter another Diocese in communion with Canterbury, yet he does so. Just because he does not want to recognize something does not mean it doesn’t exist.
Interesting indeed. This whole idea of communion with Canterbury or not has been debated and debated and debated. Whatever the historical origins of the Communion, the reality is that there are some who consider themselves united under the authority of the Word and there are some who consider themselves united under the authority of Canterbury. The trouble is that if you push this insistence on communion with Canterbury, you will finalise the divide of the Communion all over the world. It doesn’t take much to imagine a situation where if it is insisted that by being in communion with Canterbury one is in communion with TEC then some will break communion with Canterbury to remain in communion with the orthodox and to retain distance from TEC. I don’t think anyone wants to do that but it is not inconceivable. If you push the black and white polarisation in this way, there will be English Bishops and English parishes who could find themselves breaking with Canterbury. There is a possibility at the moment that the breaks may not be that final. But your rationale seems to insist that everyone makes the choice. I do wonder who in this is being schismatic – and it sure sounds like you.
Looking back over the tenure of the present PB, we, (although I have left, my heart is still with you all) are actually lucky to have someone of her caliber as PB. One would think that one, rising to that level within the hierarchy of the church, one would be a decent politician with a manner that would sooth the opposition. Not her, she comes in as the Wicked Witch of the West, with her lawsuits and threats. Instead of trying to placate those who appose her, she is brilliantly driving them away. Which is probably her goal anyways. She has absolutely no tack and appears to have no love controlling any of her actions. How sad!
As for Archbishop Henry coming to the US, THANK GOD!! Unless you have been under the tyranny of a bishop that brutalizes his/her sheep, you cannot ever understand the comfort and peace he (and all the other African bishops brings to a parish. I have met several bishops from differing African churches and have experienced the love and peace the oozes from them. Such stark differences from the TEC bishops we had experienced. I’m delighted that they are here. I have many friends in these new congregations and their churches are growing and glorious. [While I left for the Catholic Church, which as been a God send for my and my family, if I had an orthodox Anglican church nearby I would be thrilled to go to it. I have a TEC within a mile and I don’t even like to go to funerals there, it brings back such horrible experiences.)
When I was at FSU we had a new library director who came in, clearly insane, and proceeded to institute policies that quickly reduced the library to less than 40% staff capacity. I won’t bore y’all with the details. But whenever she would come up with a new insane policy, we would look at each other and say:
You know, she really hasn’t been the same since Dorothy dropped that house on her sister.
Pamela’s comment above brought that to mind, and IMO works with KJS as well. 🙂
Jim Elliott <><
In case I was not clear about the PB part. I think I would rather have a wolf, dressed as a wolf, than a wolf dressed in sheep’s clothing. At least she is blatantly clear in her motives and actions as apposed to others who are more clever at hiding their true intentions. If we had a PB that appeared to be kind and loving, we might hold out the hope that his/her heart could/would be changed. Don’t have to worry about that with her… she’s crystal clear, no room for hoping..
With his Federal-state analogy Brian (29) really makes our case that TEC has walked from the AC. States’ authority stops at the border and even within the border as to that whichich has been Federally-preempted. As a “state”, TEC cannot change theology (like foreign policy). For reappraisers, better to attempt an analogy to a looser group (EU?).
Cennydd, very nice summary of the selfish, political hijacking of TEC without regard to the cost.
Larry Morse – Your additional words in post no 42 about KJS resonate with me.