From the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
So far, [Katharine Jefferts] Schori is speaking softly, but signaling that there may be a steel fist beneath the velvet glove.
Backed by the national church, the Diocese of Virginia has launched legal action to regain property of the breakaway congregations.
Schori said her approach is to act as the church’s chief pastor, keep dialogue going, and work toward “adaptive solutions” that will “hold us together” despite differences.
“If the pastoral responses fail, and there are attempts to destroy the structure, the way you respond is the structural way, the canonical way,” she said. “When you get out the big guns, the pastoral solution has failed.”
And, in the American way, the faithful may end up fighting it out in civil court.
Actually, I think we’re feeling the Steel Fist already here in San Diego–or is it The Big Guns?
Dear Faithful Anglicans,
Reading the above filled me with a great sorrow. For now it can no longer be doubted that the enemy you fight is the one warned against in Ephesians. But I also feel joy for I know you have put on the full armor of God. With prayer as your shield and faith as your sword I know you will prevail. But I no longer think you will prevail in TEC. Rather you will prevail in a separate orthodox structure in the US. For in the face of such wrongs would God ignore your pleas? I am confident He will not. May the voices of heaven join yours in glorifying and defending the Lord Jesus Christ. The same, yesterday, today and forever and ever, amen.
Chilling.
“So far, Schori is speaking softly, but signaling that there may be a steel fist beneath the velvet glove.”
Another steel fist?
“”If the pastoral responses fail, . . . the way you respond is the structural way, the canonical way”
KJS gives a new meaning to “pastoral.” ECUSA already practices a pitiless, hobnailed “pastorate.” And in suggesting that ECUSA has thus far been Playing Nice, KJS speaks volumes about herself and her notions of Christian discipleship.
Sued but moving on in mission and ministry.
Out of assembled diversity comes an approach to truth. Who has ever believed this in the past? What ever happened to communion?
She is doing and saying what she is told to do and say……she has found herself in a situation in which she has no control and she has decided to go with the flow….we tend to give her to much credit, and in the end, a hundred years from now history will make her the scapegoat….not that it isn’t deserved. This mess has been a long time in the making…and she is Johnny-come-lately……
At some point the orthodox may see that the “Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations†(RICO) Act, passed by congress in 1970, may be the best defensive answer to [Katharine Jeffers] Schori and her minions.
A significant and eye opening response will be necessary to quell the thirst of a this non-charitable organization devoted to destroying the orthodox faithful.
To understand how RICO may apply go to: http://www.ricoact.com/
The Episcopal church’s new Pilate.
I guess the author in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer didn’t understand that TEC initiated parallel lawsuits months ago.
“signaling”? “may be a steel fist”?
Suing your own customers is the worst possible business move, and the church will not last long under such conditions.
Well, she does speak softly, and I was convinced when I met her a few years ago that she also has a steely spine. And she also recognized early on that the dissidents have one goal in mind–realignment, and take as much property with them as they can. That ++Katharine and the Church leadership should dare to defend the canons of the Church and the property of faithful Episcopalians brings howls of anger and disdain, but I would certainly bet that if the shoe were on the other foot, the so-called orthodox, biblically faithful would be doing the same. “Pilate”? Come now, some of these analogies are just plain silly.
Yeah Bob, realigning back towards Christ, and away from New Age mumbo-jumbo and Universalist nonsense. How dare they!
I did notice the article mentioned only one GS primate, Akinola, and only Bishop Minns. Oh, that they wish it were so. The NEW news is the growing signals of coordination between the GS primates.
Actually, no–that is not true. +Iker and this diocese have said for years that any parish that wishes to leave may do so, with their property, if they have a majority vote in favor of doing so.
Also, I must have missed something…..where were that velvet glove and attempts at reconciliation???
Less a “Pastoral Solution” more “The Final Solution”
Hey Bob from Boone.
92% of the parishioners of Truro voted to severe ties with TEC in December. Remember us? We the ones that bought the property, have operated the buildings, pay the utilities, and do the maintenance…and for year have contributed faithful to an increasing faithless TEC. Let us get on with our mission and you with yours. Tell the PB to show a little of TEC’s vaunted “tolerance” and quit attempting to throw us into the street.
PS of the 8%… half wanted to continue to attenot reform TEC from within. But the vast majority said it was a lost cause.
LOL. Maybe the writer meant “an even steelier fist beneath the steel fist”. . . . ; > )
RE: “but I would certainly bet that if the shoe were on the other foot, the so-called orthodox, biblically faithful would be doing the same.”
And you would lose that bet. As has been already demonstrated in Central Florida, and Dallas — and articulated in Pittsburgh and Fort Worth.
#15, +Duncan in Pittsburgh said the same thing, and the dissenters from Anglicanism actually sued him for it. “No, you can’t let us leave with our property on good terms! We demand a fight!” LOL
I guess she would advocate going to the beach and asking everyone what they thought about squid and then writing a textbook. Everyone’s view would be incoporated as the result of dialogue.
Sarah–Reminds me of the Diane Sawyer interview with Rosalyn Carter back in 1978. Diane said “Here in Washington they call you the Iron Magnolia. Where’s the Magnolia?” Dee–Who’s
telling her what do do? The Devil? Bruno? You let her off the hook too easily. If she is being manipualted it is self-induced. Lots of evil princes (and I suppose evil princesses) have claimed exemption because they heard voices. Hopefully history won’t let KJS get away with it. The GS certainly will not.
I always thought the big guns were Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John.
As a member of Truro, this statement is, in my opinion, the height of hypocrisy. Unless, of course, lawsuits against faithful Christians is considered to be an ‘adaptive solution”.
Bah!
In actual operation, the “democratic” setup in The Episcopal Church seems to operate much more on a soviet model than a democratic model, especially with regard to representation to synods and conventions. Those chosen by the powers that be are usually the ones elected, often unopposed.
Help me out here. Where on 815’s balance sheets, are all these properties listed as assets? If a church leaves and takes its building, how does 815 lose? How, even, does the Diocese lose? And how is it anything but theft when a diocese confiscates buildings they didn’t pay for and sells them on the open market?
I thought–being kinder, gentler, and inclusive–we were supposed to eschew such violent and militaristic metaphors (you know, ridding ourselves of Onward Christian Soldiers and all that). But I see here KJS has found her inner NRA and decided that the orthodox in her way are worthy of being targets for a firearms reference, so eagerly makes an exception.
KJS speaks softly, alright, but she swings that Big Stick will all of the strength of a professional ball player!
Cindy [#25]: You asked, “If a church leaves and takes its building, how does 815 lose? How, even, does the Diocese lose?”
Good question. By leaving ECUSA, a congregation ends any prospect that it will send money to the diocese, leaving the diocese with less money to pay for its own bureaucracy and programs and less money to send ECUSA. That his revisionist apparatchiks where it hurts.
_ _ _ _ _ _
“KJS speaks softly, alright, but she swings that Big Stick will all of the strength of a professional ball player!” —#27
Or perhaps with all the spite of a frightened, angry bureaucracy.
In #28 the 2nd paragraph should end, “That hits revisionist apparatchiks where it hurts.”
Hmmm, I would have thought that a Seattle newspaper would have championed her and TEC’s cause. I find it interesting that the writer saw “behind the mask,” as it were.
“I would have thought that a Seattle newspaper would have championed her and TEC’s cause. I find it interesting that the writer saw ‘behind the mask,’ as it were.” —Teatime #30
Masks will out—and reporters tend to dislike abuse of power by those in authority.
More broadly, a good reminder that we shouldn’t write off the secular press.
(“Schori said her approach is to act as the church’s chief pastor, keep dialogue going, and work toward “adaptive solutions†that will “hold us together†despite differences.)
These words above are total hogwash. There are no “adaptive solutions” in Christianity, if you are a TRUE Christian. This just shows me even more how depraved KJS really is.
All those who are buying into what she and others in the churches are teaching today are totally missing what scripture says. Read Matthew 5:17-20. (Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writing of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear, until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. But I warn you–unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven.)
Now, does that sound to you like Jesus is wiping out the Law of Moses???? No!!! He came to fulfill that law. To make sure it was enforced. We can’t just disregard the Old Testament. We need to instead turn to Jesus in faith that, through grace and belief in him, we will be saved. He spoke the words above himself. He makes it quite clear. No intelligent person can read those words and then look someone in the face and tell them that Jesus was removing the law of Moses. THAT is what the church is trying to teach these days. One of their twisted ways of trying to rationalize this is that we must not respect the authority of the scriptures. To support Jesus’ authority in the Scriptures, Math 28:18 states (I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the earth.) This are the words of love from my Savior that He is indeed with me to the ends of the age. My faith remains in Him, even though the antichrist-held leaders of the churches today have been brainwashed. Jesus here reaffirms the authority of the scriptures.
Now, read 2 Tim 3:16 (All scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip His people to do every good work.) Again, more statements for authority for the scriptures and clear words to tell us to abide them to know what is right and what is wrong. You don’t need to have a PhD to get the direct meaning of these words. They are put in the simplest of terms. If anyone refuses to accept their meaning, they are indeed making themselves look like fools.
So, enough is in the scriptures to affirm their authority, and enough is in them to tell us that anything relating to homosexual behavior is wrong in God’s eyes. It’s a sin, plain and simple. Just like all other sins, we have no right to try to say that behavior is not sinful and give those who are doing it false hope. Instead, we are only encouraging them to stumble. We are helping them along the dark road. The scriptures clearly tell us not to do that. We are instructed to bring all sinners into the light and to encourage them to repent. This goes for ALL sin, not just homosexual activities. The difference here is that the church is trying to teach that the sin is now not a sin. That is the root of this whole mess. The church has gone apostate and heretical in its teaching. It’s clearly firmly under the control of the antichrist. This was well prophesied, especially in the book of Daniel and Revelation. We were told to heed the prophesies. As I quoted from scriptures above, the prophesies have not been taken away by Jesus’ coming. He came to fulfill them!!!!!!
#31 Irenaeus
This bluff write up might also make Schori ponder Griswold’s more incoherent semantics; few reporters ever quoted him at length as he usually lapsed into obscure pluriform truths. Schori’s more direct language might turn out to be a serious tactical error.
#34 TPaine, interestingly, the questions of homosexuality and slavery are almost exact opposites of each other. Slaves wanted to reject the biological determinism that linked blood to slavery generation after generation, so that they might instead be judged by the content of their character, in Martin Luther King’s words.
#37, well that would include our actual actions, wouldn’t it?
If the actual actions are to devote time and energy to undermining tradtional marriages by advocating for a redefinition of marriage as a partnership for mutual erotic gratification, then I judge the character to be low: narcisstic, devoted to sexual gratification, reducing children to second class citizens.
I am not saying someone is of low moral character for having same sex attraction. It seems to me that many of the saints may have had same sex attraction. And I am not even saying someone has low moral character for acting on same sex attraction. That’s just normal sin, And we’re all sinners.
I am talking about people who want to change the meaning of marriage to glorify eroticism and downplay procreation and childrearing. This indicates low moral character to me because it is to the disadvantage of the children.
TPaine wrote:
A hundred years from now you folks will appear in the same light as the “Christians†who defended slavery in 1860.
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John 8:34-37
34 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
NIV
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Is not the gay community held in bondage to its sexual activity? If not then why not celibacy?
Any sin that compels behavior is bondage. I know for Jesus has free from a few.
Peace.
#7 David Booth Beers is the mouthpiece.
#8 – You are right on. I have suggested a RICO approach as well.
#31 – you forget the secular press is a. liberal, b. a mile wide and an inch deep on this stuff. The L.A. Times reporter has Bruno’s cell phone number to call whenever she has a question about TEC.
Separated at birth? KJS and the Borg Queen (from the Star Trek movie a few years back)… Resistance is futile?
From # 36 above; “so that they might instead be judged by the content of their character”
I am hopeful that I will be judged by the character of Jesus Christ rather than my own.
#44, don’t conflate different senses of the word “judge.” As to final judgment, we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Without Christ’s perfect nature, we would be lost.
But Christians are called to hold each other to account. Our character, the sum of our thoughts, words, and deeds, is the outward manifestation of the inward workings of the Spirit. Not to judge ourselves and fellow believers on those criteria is to evade our Christian duty, and is tantamount to declaring that it doesn’t matter what we do in this life.
#46 – suggest you read most recent comment from elf concerning your series of comments on Hitchens book matter.
[i]thanks, but do let us handle the elfing! 😉 [/i]
#46, I didn’t answer your question because it was an attempt to change the subject. The actual point is from my post #36, to wit: blacks rejected the deterministic anthropology of the pro-slavery faction, embracing the idea that all human beings have the ability to rise above the circumstances of their birth. With respect to homosexuality, “progressives” make the exact opposite claim.
TPaine, the gay people I know run the gamut from great folks to right bastards, just like every other grouping of people I know. It doesn’t help to dehumanize by whitewashing (they’re all great!) any more than to dehumanize by condemnation (they’re all soulless devils!).