He said next month’s Lambeth Conference ”“ a global meeting of Anglican bishops held every 10 years ”“ could prove a turning point.
“My hope is that the conference will be a real trust building event,” said the Archbishop.
“The challenge is whether we manage those issues in such a way that they don’t just split us apart and isolate us from one another.
“I think that we face some very serious choices within the church but I don’t think the Church of England is on the edge of schism.”
This is MOST WORRYING. It seems we have a leader with a head stuck deeply in the sand. He refuses to lead and deludes himself that all is well…
Fact: the C of E is sytematically being pushed to the margins of society by the State- social care etc…being outsourced
Fact: Numbers are in serious decline accross the whole Church and children, men, working classes and people in their 30’s are almost entirely absent
Fact: The ordination of women and pro gay agenda have fractured the church beyond repair. No schism Archbishop?? So just explain the existence of ‘lying bishops’ to me?
Fact: Even growing churches are tending to poach from others- so very little actual new blood is coming into the church. The church is seen a s a national joke by most intelligent people.
Fact: the calibre of priests in England is frighteningly low since the trend of NSM part trained people. Liturgy is sloppy and there is no unified prayer book or doctrine that unites. People are -through Comic Worship- encouraged to piuck and mix religion.
That is before I even get started. I seriously recommend this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anglican-Difficulties-New-Syllabus-Errors/dp/0826470947/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213874675&sr=8-2
Anglican Difficulties by Edward Norman
Its bleak but a far more honest and realistic appriasal.
sorry that should read ‘flying bishops’ the lying bishops could turn out to be those who promised an honoured place in the church for those who in conscience cannot accept women’s ordination- if rumours of no provision is to be believed!
God called us to holiness, not a denomination. Come back to holiness
http://www.thewayofgodchurch.com/pastor_smith.shtml
he also built a church with a holy, Catholic and apostolic priesthood. No offense but if I cut my losses…which is VERY tempting…it will be to a church that can authenticate the sacraments…rome or Constantinople
This speech resembles the new ad for Jose Cuervo Gold: “The best Margaritas are [i]always[/i] made with Jose Cuervo.” They are both attempts at the Big Lie. Only those (many) who don’t know better will believe either.
Many of us have been wondering what +++Williams really thinks and his remarks cited in this article, if they are accurately reported, finally give us some in sight.
And this peek into his mind is scary.
His remarks are those of a person who is not facing the issues seriously, a person who hopes that things will “blow over” and that everything will be OK after this gathering storm within the Anglican Communion is over.
Was the good archbishop dressed as a peacock, dancing a jig and singing “I’ve got a lovely bunch of coconuts”? That might have helped to better distract his audience from the meeting going on in Jerusalem right now.
It is difficult to hope that Lambeth will result in “trust” when its host cannot be trusted. But once again we do see here ABC’s ability to communicate in clear, understandable sentences (even for “non-academics”), though the clear statements are scary in the blindness they express. Further, so much for the hope that ABC will resign or be sacked for his failures to lead. He thinks things are just fine (perhaps another bit of brown bread at tea, thank you very much).
Rugbyplayingpriest is right.
This is unbelievable. The emperor has fine clothes on. There is no problem. Just carry on. Keep your fingers crossed.
Does he REALLY think this? [b]REALLY?….[/b]
This is a man in denial.
RPP: did you know that Edward Norman was an advocate for homosexual relations?
Does anyone know if he converted to Catholicism?
Calm down, everyone. The Archbishop was addressing an English diocese and talking about the Church of England. And he is right; the Church of England is not about to disappear and it is not threatened with schism. The Anglican Communion looks fragile, but the Anglican Communion and the Church of England are two quite different things. The Church of England lived without the Anglican Communion for over 300 years after the Reformation and we don’t depend on it now.
As for rugbyplayingpriest – I can assure you that the Anglican churches I know DO have children, men, working classes and people in their 30’s well represented. I remind you that numbers are down in all churches and denominations but hold up reasonably well in the Church of England. And a wide spectrum of opinions, passionately held, is not new in the Church of England, it has been characteristic of it since the 17th century at the very least. Accommodating different points of view was the whole point of the established church and very much at the bottom of the compromise which is the Book of Common Prayer.
badman that is just further blindness. Yes there are SOME children men and 30 somethings around….but in paltry numbers in the church as a whole. My church has lots but it is not representative.. alas most churches have less than 50 in and are largely in their 70s+ – you may want to refute that but all statistics bear it out.
And having differences of opinion is one thing….having a liberal faction opening flouting church law is quite another.
And to the person commenting on Edward Norman- yes he has converted and why not read the book where he writes a whole chapter on sexuality- not a word of which I could disagree with.
Badman, it sounds as if you are in England?
I agree with you that there are many live Churches here with all ages represented as you say.
But to deny that the Church of England will remain unscathed – by a) the current international tension and b) current national disunity over eg women’s consecration – is a grave delusion.
NO SO FAST-“he also built a church with a holy, Catholic and apostolic priesthood”.
Paul was an elder and an apostle. He was not Catholic nor apostolic-he was holy.
1 Peter 5: 1: The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Paul was an elder of a holy church. Show me one time in the Bible where Paul was an elder of a Catholic Church?
RPP, Gordian – So – does Edward Norman advocate for the homosexual agenda or NOT???
Please be clear…crystal clear. This is no time for equivocating or blurred edges. I have NO time , no tolerance or patience for more Anglican ‘fudge’ alias agenda effluent and execration.
Anybody up for a new movie by Monty Python called “Life of Rowan?”
As long as one is, well……on board with gay marriages, ordaining women to Holy Orders, not too mention lesbian & homosexual men to the priesthood and to the episcopate, then yeah!. The Church is Strong! If he is singling out just the Church of England, then yep….there again he is in deep denial!
At this point in history one of my top three unanswered questions is,
What are the real true benefits of being in a Communion that has no means to discipline itself as a whole body?
Gary, I may be dense right now. But was your post satire? If so, well done. I haven’t had my morning coffee.
#15-
A good summary would be that he is utterly against hatred of homosexuals and thus is sympathetic to people who happen to be gay. However he is crystal clear that the only possible choice for such people within the remits of Christianity is a life of celibacy. He publically sites the pro gay campaign as a sign of the church having given way to secualrist thinking….now just BUY the book. Turst me it will not disappoint anyone who is a true christian.
Gordian: According to an interview posted on virtue online, Canon Norman converted in May 2004.
He said, “Catholicism is what I have always believed, though I did not have the wit to realise it. You might call it a shaft of light before the sun sets.”
Gary: If you believe the Bible as you seem to do, you can’t deny Christ founded a specific church. Trying to pick and choose Scripture to mold into a position is what Satan did when he was with Our Lord in the desert.
Ok, I know Anglicans are “wordy” people…but he really needs to get with Schori’s marketing people. This is a lot harder to trademark than “All Is Well”.
Me thinks the good Archbishop needs to get out and about more often. Or else he is in a state of denial. Take your pick.
#20: So I thought. But then I thought I’d read somewhere he was working in a church in London.
I think in a series of essays ‘Touching Darkness’ (or the like) he argued for homosexual realtions on pragmatic grounds.
Good grief – it’s his job to say this kind of thing. Encourage the troops and all that. Be realistic – when the ABC turns up at a diocesan convention – his job is to lift people’s spirits and try to enthuse them.
My beef with the COE leadership is that they always say this sort of this in public and only speak honestly about the problems in the private HOB gatherings. But the clergy know not everything is going well. So, once in a while and in the right venue – you don’t have to do it always – it helps if one’s Bishop/Archbishop acknowledges it.
Let me give one example. The issue about the quality of clergy has been a significant one over about the last decade. Poorly trained clergy, with little theology, little Scripture and wacko liturgy – the hold a rock, fold a paper plane school of liturgy – have become an increasing presence in the COE. Yet clergy who have tried to raise it – blimey – a ton of bricks is dropped on them from a great height and bishops. in public, won’t even acknowledge there may be an issue. Or try to suggest that the local part time training scheme (in England now – many clergy train part time) may not be providing a well rounded, sound training in the Anglican tradition. Woah! In my last diocese the local scheme shamelessly encouraged trainee clergy to use what they called “experimental liturgies”. The local bishop knew about it and did nothing about it. They were, of course, being encouraged to break one of their ordination oaths. Sad stuff really.
RPP – Thanks anyway, but I’ll save my money. I have no use for anyone who recognizes the word ‘gay’ or any of manufactured political propaganda apologetics concepts such as ‘sexual identity’, ‘orientation’, etc.
Best to stick with the whole counsel of Scripture particularly, I Corinthians 6:9-11 and Romans 1, for my theology of sexuality than to give any ground however slight to the bondage, darkness and destructiveness of sin.
Seriously, here’s one from real life – model the Trinity in pipe cleaners. It’s not quite homoousios folks.
That’s all right then.
All is Wellâ„¢
I am increasingly convinced that one of the few remaining hopes for preserving the Anglican Communion in anything like its present form is that ++Orombi accede to +++Cantuar.
The question thus becomes one of whether or not Elizabeth II might act in her role as [i]fide defendorum[/i] to sack Williams for the sake of one of the few remaining remnants of her father’s empire. She did approve the sacking of Gough Whitlam as PM of Australia more than thirty years ago, so there is at least a glimmer of hope in that regard.
The alternative is depressing to contemplate: that the nominal Anglican Communion becomes a moribund, rump church, comprised overwhelmingly of over-educated, over-fed, very white western revisionists, largely committed to the post-modern agenda.
Lest we fool ourselves, let us remember that 27 million of the world’s purported 77 million Anglicans are in the Church of England. Less than a million of them actually worship … so the world population of willing Anglicans is far closer to 50 million than to 80 million. Of that 50 million or so, the representatives of roughly 70% are attending GAFCON.
driver8 complains of[blockquote]Poorly trained clergy, with little theology, little Scripture and wacko liturgy[/blockquote]And he’s not talking about TEC! But unintentionally he has described a large portion of the American church.
Offhand, I’d say His Grace is like the captain of a rudderless ship; he wants to stay on course, but he’s lost his rudder somewhere in the deep dark sea of apostasy and befuddlement!
And for the Archbishop, trust is not built at these large splashy events. If trust is developed through day-to-day preaching and practice of Christianity, people who already consider each other as brothers can benefit enormously from one of these events. To bring a broken church to a mass group therapy session with no purpose other than preventing them from throwing food at each other is pointless.
#25 then you will miss one of the most accurate descriptions of the church of today and most uesful book I have read in many years…your loss my freind, why not try it and see? In fact DO IT- and I bet £10 you reply- loved it!
#24: Is it not the case that most new clergy in England now are middle aged women, and most of them have trained on part time courses?
And yet recently there were complaints from their bishops about the standards of clergy! Who promoted these coruses in the first place?
Bart: How can anyone expect Elizabeth II to rule on the matters of the CoE? By her silence, she has answered.
Does she even care to what depths it has sunk?
When was the last time an English monarch ruled on a purely religious matter?
I concur with the statement, the church is strong, as in the usage, a strong stench of gangrene.
Elizabeth II may reign, but she doesn’t rule…….English Law, you know! She’s the Titular Head of the Church of Rngland, as we all know, but Parliament has the real authority……unfortunately…….so, as much as she might LIKE to make public statements about the condition of the Church (she certainly DOES have strong religious feelings), she can’t legally.
Ooops, I meant “England!”
#34 Cannon Law, Did you know that for many, many, many years JOHN STOTT was Her Majesty’s PERSONAL CHAPLAIN? I consider myself to be Her Majesty’s MOST LOYAL SUBJECT, but nobody that I know of thinks that she is a rocket scientist– or particularly astute, theologically-speaking. Having said this, however, I should also note that almost everybody who knows her, personally, has commented on the sincerity of her Christian faith… John Stott was HER choice for Chaplain– her Prime Minister had no say in the matter… She may not be able to see clearly what is really going on within the Church of England (and/or the Anglican Communion), but that is not too surprising– my guess is that it is very hard to many things clearly when gazing out of the windows of Buck House– but, I am also fairly certain that she CARES (rather deeply) about these things… What can she do about them? Not much, given the constraints of her job.
I suspect HM has a pretty good idea of what is going on and with 50 years of mixing with the world’s movers and shakers has an unmatched knowledge of people and institutions. Astute – I would thinks so.
She may well make her views known privately and I would not underestimate her; but she also has the Commonwealth to head; the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and a great many other territories to be head of state of in addition to the Church of England and possibly others [query the Church of Scotland] to head.
Pageantmaster, Yes, Her Majesty is the titular head of the Kirk, as well as the head of the CofE… How this polays itself out is actually a rather cute (albeit irrational) thing– when Her Majesty is SOUTH of the Scottish border, she is an Anglican. But the moment that she is NORTH of the border, she instantaneously becomes a Presbyterian!
As far as I know, NOBODY has EVER even TRIED to coherently or rationally explain this rather bizarre dual-allegiance to two wildly divergent theologies… It is one of those things that is just accepted as being necessary in the UK…
#40 Thankyou – that is interesting. We have not always required that things be rational in the UK; only that they work.
Rugby Playing Priest – Your concerns noted in your post no.4 4 are not shared by most of the visitors to this web site, and you know it.
Surely Christ authenticates the sacraments.
No. 43 – Right, through the Apostolic Succession and the sacrificing priesthood.
A little note: HM the Queen has quite a number of chaplains at a time, I believe at least twenty.
As for her intelligence, all that I have heard about it indicates that it is extremely keen. One of my informants was a distinguished Classical Mods. don at my Oxford College: she told me a story about HM’s visit to the Fellowship which showed her to be scintillatingly bright. She is also the world’s most experienced statesman, having seen out several Popes and any number of Presidents, not to mention petty and not so petty tyrants. She may well read T19, for all any of us know.
#45; Darn! You’ve blown our cover. We are not amused.