Some Anglican friends have wondered why so many of us non-Anglicans are so interested in that communion’s auto-destruction. Believe me, it’s not Schadenfreude, at least not for the interested parties I know. Part of it — I’m thinking in specific of an Anglophile RC priest friend — is a true love for Anglican prayers and piety, which he hates to see disappearing as the C of E collapses. For me, and I think for lots of conservatives, what’s happening to the Anglicans is fascinating because they are on the tip of the spear of modernity. One way or another, few churches will escape what the Anglicans are going through. The sexual revolution is breaking a wealthy, venerable and once-powerful national Christian church. It’s fascinating to watch, and of course very, very sad. Yet it must be admitted, or at least I must admit, a sense of black comedy watching folks twist themselves into pretzel knots trying to salvage what is at this point unsalvageable.
Can’t explain why this former Episcopalian, who left the day VGR was consecrated bishop, continues to follow this sad story, and is a faithful reader of Titus 19. What comes to mind is the old Seinfeld show– the tea shirt with Kramer’s picture. Underneath the words (I paraphrase): “He’s horrible and disgusting, yet I cannot look away!”
Perhaps even the departed hope for a miracle.
I follow it because the same issues are alive and well in my New Zealand Presbyterian Church even though the last General Assembly in 2006 passed (for the second and so binding time) a resolution that excludes from leadership (including lay leadership such as elders)
[blockquote] those involved in a sexual relationship outside of faithful marriage cannot be trained, licensed, ordained or inducted for leadership within the Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand. [/blockquote]
http://www.presbyterian.org.nz/4147.0.html#13315.
We too have our “prophetic” and “enlightened” ones and this debate is not over. Having said that, the fight that the orthodox in the USA have put up has made may of the “wobbly middle” decide being prophetic and enlightened is not worth that much grief, and so your struggles have materially reduced the chances of it all happening over here — a result of faithfulness for which you should be duly proud.
I care because what damages one part of the Body of Christ, damages us all. Also I note with alarm that the Anglican/Episcopal Church is in many ways the flagship of Mainline Protestant denominations. Once they approve, sanction and preach a heresy the rest soon follow.
But mostly because there are family who I love who are members of TEC. They are in a safe diocese with a wonderful godly priest. But how long can that sanctuary last? So I watch the approaching storm so I can help guide them to shelter when it comes.
I have to wonder about the psychological state of someone who could write these sorts of comments given the consummate [i]evil[/i] (in the child abuse scandals) that has been hidden up to leadership levels of his church. If I were he, I’d be so ashamed to be associated with people like that that I couldn’t bring myself to comment on anybody else’s church.
Is this kind of writing some sort of mechanism to cope with cognitive dissonance?
#5 Sidney,
I think you’re assuming the author of the comments is Catholic. He transitioned from Catholicism to Orthodoxy a few years back.
#5 The RC church has had no major scandals beyond the 1980’s everything you are reading is rehashed in the papers from old scandals and the RC church has gone a long way in cleaning up its mess and is not getting much credit for the good job that it has done. Meanwhile, despite its enormous size relative to the rapidly shrinking TEC, the RC leadership doesn’t hold a candle to the many cover-ups that the leadership of TEC has been involved with and effected with regard to its many ugly and sordid sex scandals.
Sidney, good catch. Everyone know that homosexual activity between adult males and teen boys has know been officially sanctioned and lauded by the Catholic Church. In the Catechism it plainly states that standards of sexual morality must be considered in their cultural context. That Jesus never said anything about homosexual behavior between two mutually consenting participants. Sure the age difference and the whole power imbalance is problematic but being true to one’s own authentic sexual attraction to adolescent boys has got to trump that consideration. Again thanks for the catch. I’ll look for my updated Catechism and toss the old one first chance.
[url=http://www.vulcanhammer.org/?page_id=710]My reasons for following this are here[/url].
To paraphrase a Russian church leader who addressed my local church a few years back, your past and present is probably everyone else in Christianity’s future. That runs the gamut from the issue of homosexuality to the rise of the Global South.
I follow this out of profound sadness for the impending loss of a church with a once-powerful witness and the best liturgy (Rite I and earlier) in Christendom.
Sidney, when leaders of the RC church act in a Godly, wise manner, it is proof that this is the one (and only) holy catholic church. When leaders molest children and have their buddies cover up for them, it is no indication on the defectibility of this indefectible church, but simply the actions of a few sinful individuals.
Remember that when an RC argues logic with you, you can only lose and he can only win. If you lose the logic argument, he throws into doubt your beliefs. If you win the argument, it is of no consequence, since he believes that he is unable to personally reason theological wrong from right (that would make him a pope unto himself, or something…), and when his reason contradicts the teachings of the church, he must submit his reason to teachings the Church, regardless.
Of course RCs will always predict the impending doom of Anglicanism and Protestant churches. Their church must triumph and we schismatics must founder on the Foundation stone so that we see our error and repent.
It’s my view that Anglicanism is anything but dead. The Via Media may turn South for a century or two, but it is well-paved to handle the hills it will encounter. But then I would be saying such a thing. I’m an Anglican.
It’s fortunate for any concerned to objectively discern if the Anglican development of ordaining women is prophetic or not, that some non-Anglicans continue to take an interest:
“If the price of victory is to force tradition into unconditional surrender then it becomes a somewhat pyrrhic one, all the more so if it is widely depicted as Christian faith being forced to bow the knee to secular post-Christian values. That is the danger in saying, as some at the General Synod did this week, that if the Church of England does not allow women bishops it will look ridiculous in the eyes of society at large. Instead, the question ought to be: does what is proposed look ridiculous in the eyes of tradition?”
(from a recent piece in The Tablet)
Justin, It should cheer you up to know that I have stopped beating my dog.
I don’t know any Catholic who happily predicts the failure of the Anglican Communion or any other Protestant church. If this was the case you would not have so many of us praying for the orthodox in your church. And not to ruin your illusion of catholic triumphilism I have always said that I would rather someone be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic. I understand that their our Catholic beliefs that may be a stumbling block to some persons relationship with Jesus. If this is the case they should be all means be Protestant. But if they are going to be Protestant that Protestant Church better at least be teaching the Christian doctrines we share. You know the ones such as the Divinity of Christ, The Virgin Birth, The Bodily Ressurection. Any of those ring a bell?
And if you can not distinguish what a Church officially teaches and what some of the more off the wall moonbat members espouse or the wickedness some members do. I fear nothing I say will mean a cows emission to you.
Sorry for the mistakes in the above their our should be there are. I have coyote chew my leg off pain today and am not thinking clearly.
Paula, you obviously don’t read T19 very much. Or you would be sickened by the constant Roman and Orthodox vultures CONSTANTLY trumpeting the demise of Anglicanism and the fulfilment of the prophecies of Newman and his ilk.
With regard to the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the MAJORITY of Anglicans still, and will always believe the creed and traditional Christian doctrines. The reason there is a tempest in the teapot of the most liberal little provinces in the worldwide communion is that there are still orthodox christians mounting an opposition even there.
And if you can not distinguish what a Church officially teaches and what some of the more off the wall moonbat members espouse or the wickedness some members do. I fear nothing I say will mean a cows emission to you.
I’m glad to know that you adhere to Biblical and early Church tradition by following your sense of wrong and right instead of subjecting it blindly to the Church. In that you disobey dogma as you are well aware.
Justinmartyr, I do not disobey dogma by distinguishing what the sinful members, lay and clergy of a Church may do and what that Church officially teaches. You really must not lie.
The majority of Anglicans I agree do believe in the Bible and the Creeds. But the TEC as an official body has clearly abandonded those measurements of Christian orthodoxy. It only takes a few readings of the PB’s sermons, interviews and writings to see that. The fact that Bishop Spong was never disciplined for his obvious rejection of Christian doctrine. The fact that same sex unions are blessed in Episcopal Churches. I could continue. But remember my view of the Episcopal Church is shared by those Anglicans who do still adhere to Scripture. So it is hardly a case of Catholic nanny nanny boo boo.
And your insult about me blindly accepting Catholic dogma is a rather underhanded way of suggesting all Catholics are dumb as rock robotons who never, ever think for themselves. I give my full knowledgable consent to the teachings of the Church because I trust fully in the promise of Christ to protect Her from the gates of hell. I assure you this was done after much study and prayers. If I had not been able to make such a consent I would have been honest and left the Church. I don’t fricking cross my fingers when I go up to the altar rail and think ” Hey sure abortion is wrong for me. But for some women it is the only choice. So I can take the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in good conscience even if I support abortion rights”. I take seriously the bit about eating and drinking damnation upon one’s self.
By the way I assume you as a Protestant submit to the teachings of God out of your love for Him and because you trust in His promises. And not because you are a blind idiot who can’t find his own nose with his own hands.
Much like a gawker who slows down to see a car accident I cannot turn away from what maybe (probably is) the death knells of the denomination, and communion, I grew up in and dearly love.
It is also the only way to gain information from all sides. Information that I cannot hope to get from my own diocese. If it passes along any information on what is happening in/with the denomination or greater worldwide Communion it is in soundbites and thinned out.
The people in the pews are being fed pablum, with a distinctly liberal-leaning flavor.
I have learned much from reading here.
As a proud member of Newman’s ilk I have to say that he was breathtakingly prescient about the affect of Liberalism on the CofE.
As was Luther about the pride and corruption of the infallible Roman Church