A lot of material of interest here, including this:
A.)Stewardship Conference
Bishop Ousley reported to the Standing Committee that all clergy and senior wardens had received from him a communication regarding stewardship and evangelism in an attempt to get the diocese to take these subjects seriously. Our track record is poor, our attendance and membership having declined 31% since 1994….
Or this:
E.)Future of the Church
When questioned about the future of the church Bishop Ousley responded that he foresees turmoil for a number of years. Denominationalism is breaking down. In the ensuing discussion Rev. Downie stated that we are reaping the fruits of failure in formation.
However of greatest interest was this revealing section:
C.)Bishop Duncan of Pittsburgh
In response to a question from the Standing Committee, Bishop Ousley stated that the sixty days of notification has expired and the House of Bishops can vote to depose Bishop Duncan of the Diocese of Pittsburgh at any time. The House of Bishops has been polled regarding Bishop Duncan’s deposition and Bishop Ousley noted that he responded with no preference as to whether the House of Bishops holds a special meeting or takes up the deposition at the next regular meeting. Bishop Duncan will be deposed but it appears that the House of Bishops will wait until their next regular meeting which is scheduled to take place after the Lambeth Conference.
Can anybody explain to me how this is rational? To quote the report:
[blockquote]D.) St. John’s-St. Johns
Although the community is growing this congregation is not. It possibly will be necessary to close the present congregation, let it lie fallow and restart a new congregation.[/blockquote] So, the solution to a congregation in trouble is to close the church, let it lie dormant for a while….and then start all over with a new congregation, presumably after the current one has made other arrangements. Rather than build on the nucleus you already have, you start all over with new people? Sounds more like a way to get rid of “troublemakers” than rational evangelism. Anyone familiar with this situation?
I am hoping that Bishop Duncan and Pittsburgh will remain in TEC with the other “evangelical dioceses” and not exit with the anti-WO dioceses. It might be difficult for him to step away from his past rhetoric, but sometimes one has to say “I was wrong”. Common Cause is not the future of Pittsburgh!
Besides the convention has not yet voted and I hear that the lay deputy vote is being carefully watched by all concerned!
The last time I saw radical inclusion like this, it was on pay-per-view: at that time, Michael Spinks was being included in the number of boxers Mike Tyson had swallowed whole.
Lambeth 2008 was a farce.
Re the deposition, what’s that line from the B-grade western, “We’re going to give him a fair trial, and then we’re going to hang him.”
How about this one:
[blockquote]Grace-Standish
The Bishop noted that there are rumors that Grace-Standish is closing, especially as the [b]average age of the congregation is approximately 85[/b]. There appears to be no reason to close this parish immediately.[/blockquote]
Stats [url=http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_86200893423AM.pdf ]here[/url]. Looks average Sunday attendance is 16. So no need to close the parish “immediately.” We can wait till next week.
Stats for St. Johns in St Johns [url=http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_86200893853AM.pdf ]here[/url]. Looks like 2006 data is the same as 2005 data with ASA of 23.
When, if at all, was the Diocese of Pittsburgh going to have a vote as to whether or not to stay in TEC?
Robroy, any thoughts as to whether TEC will ever publish any stats for 2007? After all, it’s nearly the middle of August 2008 and they haven’t been able to collate the 2007 data? I guessing that 2006 will be the last of the Charts, but I could be wrong.
Response to #1 tjmcmahon
I do not know the specifics, but often in a situation where a congregation is in decline, and when it is located in a growing area, the reality is that the ‘DNA’ of the congregation is not a good fit for the community or for growth. There may have been conflicts in the parish, the congregation may simply want a ‘chapel of ease’ rather than to be involved missionaly in the community or beyond, and so on.
In this kind of situation the best solution is to let it lie fallow for awhile before beginning a new work. The challenge is how to navigate the painful decision of whether/how/when to close the existing church and how to provide pastoral care for those remaining.
Neal Michell
We just had that happen here in SC. They indeed ‘let it lie fallow”, and then sold it to a Hispanic Baptist Congregation..
Probably be going great guns wot?
Gloria in SC
#2 Eugene: Not a chance! Bishop Duncan is committed to GAFCON’s reforms and a new North American province. While his decision will undoubtedly result in problems similar to ours in the Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin, he has made a stand for orthodox Anglicanism, and I doubt very much that he will back down.
As I recall, the prior year’s statistics are generally released by 815 sometime in late September/early October.
I’ve never understood why, when there is a Presidential election, 90-100 million ballots can be counted in about eight hours, but it takes ten months to collect and release statistics pertaining to about 2 million souls…but so be it.
The answer to that, Kevin, is “delay and obfuscation.”
#12 Kevin,
The reason it takes so long to release the figures is that it often takes a long time to get the last church in the diocese to send in its parochial report so the diocese, and the folks at 815, to get them
I have found the people at 815 to be very responsive to all inquiries concerning statistics and record keeping. The delays, in my experience, are often at the parish level, and the result of having to wait for the last parochial report to come in.
Neal Michell
Isn’t Eastern Michigan the diocese that had to sell their cathedral?
If so, the part-time dean, part time LGBT activist that presided over that fiasco may be symptomatic of a larger diocesan problem.
If it’s not the same diocese, then Michigan as a whole seems to be headed down the tubes. Cathedral sold, parishes evaporating, clergy in denial. Yep, if it’s sunrise in TEC then it’s a new day of obfuscation, decit, and denial – all blamed on the Holy Spirit.
To Kevin Babb, Thanks. Yes, I’m sure there’s a reason for delaying publishing the stats. At this point, I don’t think 2007’s charts will have many surprises for us.
I’ve found that when a congregation is not growing, sometimes it is the fault of the members themselves, who are comfortable with ‘the way things are now’. Usually an older congregation who are worried that their positions of power (vestry, head of committees, etc) will be threatened with the infusion of new, younger members who will then have their own ideas about how things should be run.
That was the situation with a congregation to which I belonged in the dio of Central Gulf Coast.
Peace
Jim Elliott <><
#2–That’s the point. He hasn’t done anything yet, but there are already plenty of votes to depose him. (Note to ordained persons–you might want to think about what bishops do with people they don’t agree with. Scary posibilities, huh?).
#4–So, what we will do with Bp. Duncan is hang him immediately and give him a fair trial later.
#12–Neal is correct. In my prior church life I dealt with Kirk Hardaway alot, and he is as frustrated about the delay as anyone. He probably also tell you that alot of the #’s are just made up;
#6–Which explains what you are seeing.
Neal+, Kevin, Cennydd, and loonpond. This past year the statistics appeared magically the week AFTER the September HOB meeting. It is all about trying spin down the bad news.
I’ve been cleaning up records for my entire tenure. But small family sized churches often have the desire or skills to grow, and talented clergy aren’t going to stick around long enough for a parish to make a turn around.
Sometimes in small communities it takes 6 years for a priest to be trusted. Most clergy leave parishes within 7-11 years. Almost every megachurch has pastors of more than 20 years. Once ministry is seen as a profession, rather than a calling, we undermine the trust people want to find in their congregation.
Choir Stall (#15), The diocese that sold its cathedral was Western Michigan. I think that E Michigan is a new diocese, north of Detroit by several counties, created in the 90’s, when the leadership of ECUSA was optimistic about the Decade of Evangelism (even if they were clueless about what evangelism is, other than recruiting members as one would seek new Lions or Rotarians…)
As for letting a congregation “lie fallow.” Canon Neal knows why — sometimes an existing congregation that has shrunk has nobody left but the most stubborn people, who may simply be looking for “more people like us.” I have a cousin-in-law who became a lay pastor in the Primitive Methodist Church in NE Pennsylvania. He did a great job of reviving a dormant congregation for about a year and a half — and then the “old guard” shot him down because they didn’t know anybody anymore, and did not like the style of the services.
Such sociological information is helpful, of course — on the other hand, sociology cannot replace the Gospel. Only the Gospel, through a revival in the power of the Holy Spirit, can bring dead congregations back to life. I bet that St John’s will be comatose a very long time.
We’ve all seen the horrid drop in membership when a new Rector comes in…which really, of course, reflects a “cleaning up” of the parochial rolls.
I once heard Kevin+ Martin tell a hilarious story about a parish that called a new rector, and during the deployment process told him that they had (as a random number) 500 communicants. When the Rector came in, he “cleaned the rolls”, and dropped 100 names. After the “honeymoon” period had expired, the Rector told a vestryman, “you told me that this parish had 500 members…it’s closer to 400”, to which the vestryman replied “What are you talking about…since you came here, we’ve lost 20% of our members.”
Anyone, Kevin’s+ contention, as I recall, was that a person’s listing as a communicant is less reflective of whether the purported communicant meets the canonical requirements for that status, than the Rector’s assessment of his/her relationship with that person–if the Rector believes that he still has some sort of ongoing pastoral relationship with that person (even if that relationship is as tenuous as, “if that person were to have a crisis in his life, I’m the clergy that he would contact”), the person will likely stay on the parochial register.
Choir Stall, that was Western Michigan which sold its cathedral.
I had the unfortunate experience of having Todd Ousley as a rector 10 years back. His sermons were [i]as good[/i] as Ms Schori’s. The parish was catatonic. His “belief system” (wouldn’t call it faith) was very questionably Christian. (No, I can’t see into his heart.) Pretty much sums up the problem with the TEO.
It is sad to be surprised when church leadership actually exhibit Christian values. I read some of +Bruce MacPherson’s letters from Lambeth. I thought, “Wow, this guy loves the Lord and wants to share the good news. How very refreshing.”
Robroy,
Does TEO stand for The Episcopal Organization?
On a separate note, I don’t see how a church can operate with ASA of less than 50
Since +Bob has not been inhibited, then he cannot be deposed. Don’t they have Chancellors to read up on those pesky Canons?
#25: Remember, the PB, her chancellor, and a clear majority of the HOB have no intention of honoring canonical rules…much less spiritual godliness: What they want to do and have power to do, they will do. Full Stop. Bp. Duncan, in their minds, must go: Therefore, they will depose him with or without proper canonical procedure. And, there are not enough men with “stones” in the HOB to oppose this process. That cowardice speaks volumes about the HOB and the future of TEC.
Re: #7,
Pittsburgh — October 4, 2008
Quincy — November 7-8, 2008
Fort Worth — November 14-15, 2008
I hope that they will have lots of sandals and lots of dust to hand (or, rather, to foot).
GillianC
The canons say what they say the canons say.
Re: #20: Hold up the walls! I actually agree with something John Wilkins said!?!?! 😉
Peace
Jim Elliott <><
Eugene #2, regarding the lay deputy vote in Pittsburgh. The vote to realign in round one last year was 118 in favor and 58 opposed (with one abstention). That is exactly 2/3. While only a majority was needed to send it on to a second vote, a 2/3 majority is required for final passage. Do the math and you will see it achieved 2/3 by a single vote in 2007 (BTW the clergy were 82% in favor). So passage this year did not appear to be a slam dunk. Recent [url=http://www.pitanglican.org/news/local/missionfellowship]developments[/url] may have pushed the lay vote solidly into the realignment camp, and by that I mean the announcement that the first order of business of the convention would be to receive 4 new parishes into the diocese and immediately seat their lay deputies. This will add, at a minimum, 8 votes- and given the makeup of these missions I suspect these votes will be in favor of realignment.
GilianC #25, if the HOB deposes Bishop Duncan without inhibiting him there will be a legal challenge. His attorneys are well prepared to fight this contravention of TEC canons. See for example the most recent filing in the Calvary suit where in #85 in New Matter they state that “Moreover, if such proceedings occur, they will be contested. The TEC canons do not allow the Presiding Bishop to move forward with the ‘deposition’ without ‘the consent of the three senior Bishops having jurisdiction in’ TEC. TEC Canon IV.9.1.” and #86 where it is said that “Any subsequent ‘deposition’ will be invalid as it will not comport with the Constitution and Canons of TEC and will violate Bishop Duncan’s right to Due Process under the United States Constitution.”
Bishop Ousley seems to be well aware of the dire situation in the diocese. From 1996 through 2002 membership declined by 9 percent but from 2002 through 2006 the decline grew to 22 percent. From 1996 through 2006 Plate & Pledge increased a modest 19 percent but from 2002 through 2006 actually declined by 3 percent. And in 2006 there were 157 infant baptisms and 229 burials. Statmann
[blockquote] And in 2006 there were 157 infant baptisms and 229 burials. Statmann[/blockquote]
It is little surprising that there are more deaths than baptisms when one has congregations with an average age of 85.
Read the entire minutes. Besides this one item about Duncan, the rest of the minutes show the diocese in disintegration.
It looks to me like Eastern Michigan is a kind of TEC writ large.