St. Luke’s of the Mountains Anglican Church lost the court battle over its property this week when the San Diego-based Fourth District Court of Appeals on Tuesday upheld a lower court’s ruling in favor of the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, stating its right to the land the church sits on and its buildings.
The ruling is the climax to a years-long battle between St. Luke’s and the diocese.
On one side is the 85-year-old St. Luke’s that on Feb. 13, 2006, disassociated itself with Episcopal Church USA and the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles and aligned with the African Provence of Uganda in the Diocese of Luwero, with whom St. Luke’s has had a longtime relationship. The St. Luke’s split from the church in Los Angeles represents one of many disaffiliations across the state that made headlines earlier this year. At issue, among others, is the election of V. Gene Robinson, the first openly gay bishop elected in 2003 to serve as bishop of New Hampshire.
On the other side is the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, which as a result of St. Luke’s disaffiliation, sued St. Luke’s two months later in Los Angeles Superior Court, alleging the church no longer had a right to use the property, based on a 1979 Episcopal Church law which makes all Episcopalian property the property of the diocese.
Every time I read of church lawsuits, I see V. Gene Robinson’s name. I have mixed feelings about him as poster child for inclusion. He is enough of a narcissist to remain a Bishop in spite of the damage it has caused across the WWAC. His remaining and the defense by others in TEC as Bishop has provided singular clarity and a warning of things to come.
Absolutely sickening. Note To Bp. Bruno you have just stolen an newly emptied church. It is similar to committing rape then inviting the victim to come back and lay back in your arms. Our risen Lord takes perfect notation of your heart…if he can find it.
Intercessor
and good morning Deacon Dale…
Intercessor
Dcn Dale
Your statement points out the lack of individual responsibility that people are willing to take in our time. “+Gene made me do it” works as well today as it did when we were kids. Win or lose, those churches that have left knew that they would be fighting a battle. They made that choice fully aware and can not now play the victim.
The same goes for those who pretend that the consecration of +Gene didn’t change things and that others are overreacting. They need to admit that they went into this fully aware that everything would change.
#4. Brian from T19,
[blockquote]The same goes for those who pretend that the consecration of +Gene didn’t change things and that others are overreacting. They need to admit that they went into this fully aware that everything would change.[/blockquote]
I think they are willing to admit and were fully aware, they just saw his consecration as an enlightened justice issue that trumped everything else.
#3. Intercessor,
Good Morning to you also. Fresno is enjoying a Spring that would make San Diego envious.
Those who left were those who left the Word once delivered for all the saints…..not those who stayed in the Word and found a new home province within the WWAC. Good luck tec in trying to sale all that property you have so unjustly gained. And don’t forget that with every bit of news that comes out abou these lawsuits whether they are in tec’s favor or no makes the Episcopals and their church look uninviting to many outsiders who read them unless and only unless they are activists looking to have their sin(s) affirmed! TEc is and has become the “Feel Good & All Iss Okay” church…..That is a lie and helps no one’s eternal soul! God’s justice not human justice is the right a perfect way.
Well at least +Bruno will get stuck with all of the bills, such as insurance, major repairs and upkeep, utilities, etc……and he’s going to have a tough time trying to find enough people to sit in the pews on Sunday mornings so that he can afford to pay all of those bills! Oh, I forgot: He’s going to have to sell the property, isn’t he? With property values the way they are these days, he might get maybe fifty cents on the dollar! Lotsa luck, Bishop……you’re gonna NEED it!
We’ll take all the bills, repairs and empty buildings you have. If you can’t leave Biblically or with honor, then at least be willing to pay the price.
#9, that’s really nasty.
#9. Brian from T19,
It always seems ironic to me that you would select “Brian from T19” to identify yourself on this site. Maybe that’s why you selected it; for the irony.
Leaving Biblically????????????? Are you kidding me?????????????
Your side left the Bible and now you have the gall to say that?????????? The only way that could apply BrianT19 is if you were following the Bible not leaving it and making your own revisions to it.
Rev. 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Matthew 23:25 reminds me of you and TEc ue happy greedy little people:
Jesus says:
Matthew 23:25
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Maybe it is time that we listened to the Lord, forget the property and concentrated on his love. Let us rejoice in his love, does anything else really mater?
paul
Yes defending the Faith once delivered for all matters and when those who have taken it and trashed it and revised it to bless and affirm their sins they have sinned against God and the Church, thus theydo not have a right to take others and their property that they have maintained and paid for. it’s is worldly greed. We never left they did!
Brian is right in one sense: the buildings are what the leadership want – because the only Gospel they know has materialism at its core.
-Jim+
Brian from T19: Would you mind telling us all just exactly HOW Bishop Bruno expects to fill those empty pews on Sunday mornings? Where are all of those people going to come from? Is he going to ask each of his parishes to send a few people each Sunday? Is he going to ask his declining parishes (yes, Brian, they ARE declining, according to your Church’s own ASA figures!) to lose people in order to prop up a once-thriving parish? C’mon, Brian! Get REAL! Your Church is SHRINKING!
Goodness what a mess when people get over-emotional about choices they have made. Let’s correct some facts:
#9, that’s really nasty.
Actually, it is a statement about the intent of TEC to take back property alienated from it by people who are trying to take it. Obviously illegaly. If you want nasty, let’s look at other posters:
#1 +Robinson is a narcissist
#2 “Absolutely sickening;” “stolen;” “similar to rape;” “Our risen Lord takes perfect notation of your heart…if he can find it. ”
#7 “property you have so unjustly gained;” “activists looking to have their sin(s) affirmed!”
#8 “Well at least +Bruno will get stuck with all of the bills;” “Lotsa luck, Bishop……you’re gonna NEED it! ”
And all of that is just up until your post. Check out the screeds from TLDillon after your post! So maybe we should revise what we call nasty, Alli.
It always seems ironic to me that you would select “Brian from T19†to identify yourself on this site. Maybe that’s why you selected it; for the irony.
I really wish that wasn’t my name, but it is a technical issue. Back on the old servers for T19 and SFIF I was simply “Brian.” Then SFIF moved servers and I had to re-register under a different name. Since people over there knew me as Brian who mostly posted on T19, it made sense for me to be “Brian from T19.” But then T19 moved to the same server as SFIF and I became “Brian from T19” on here as well. It is ironic. But most people realize that I have no affiliation, so ‘no harm, no foul.’
TLD
Your comments really deserve their own post since there is so much incorrect factually.
Leaving Biblically????????????? Are you kidding me?????????????
Your side left the Bible and now you have the gall to say that?????????? The only way that could apply BrianT19 is if you were following the Bible not leaving it and making your own revisions to it.
You are held accountable to the standard that you proclaim. You claim to follow the Bible, but then say you are excused from any Biblical standard because “they did it first.” “they have sinned against God and the Church, thus they do not have a right to take others and their property that they have maintained and paid for.” A child’s playground argument. And thankfully an argument that the courts see for what it is. You stand for the Faith Once Delivered, the Word, etc. and you are so committed to it that you’re willing to throw it out the window to defend it. Dcn Dale may appreciate the irony.
Rev. 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
It’s one thing to throw it away to defend it. It’s another thing to completely misunderstand it. This quote is simply an old-fashioned warning against forgery that was common to the writing of the time. It applies to this particular letter.
There is a great scene in the movie Saved where Mandy Moore throws a Bible at a character named Mary. Mary picks up the Bible and says “THIS is not a weapon.” Take heed TL.
Yes Brian let us do some facts and facts are this
“#1 +Robinson is a narcissist” He is that is a fact!
“#2 “Absolutely sickening;†“stolen;†“similar to rape;†“Our risen Lord takes perfect notation of your heart…if he can find it. “ That is a fact…it is sickening and our Lord does take perfect notes and knows your true heart and that should give you pause for thought Brian.
#7 “property you have so unjustly gained;†“activists looking to have their sin(s) affirmed!†That is a fact Brian…homosex is a listed among those things considered sin and God will leave them to their depravity as it is written in Romans 1:24-27
#8 “Well at least +Bruno will get stuck with all of the bills;†“Lotsa luck, Bishop……you’re gonna NEED it! “ Another fact….Since the parishioners will no longer be there to foot the bills then Bruno and the diocese will have to and they will need some luck to do it unless they have a huge amount of funds to fork over until who knows when!
So Brian thanks again for proving the facts!
Brian from T19: Would you mind telling us all just exactly HOW Bishop Bruno expects to fill those empty pews on Sunday mornings? Where are all of those people going to come from? Is he going to ask each of his parishes to send a few people each Sunday?
I don’t know Cennyd. I never said he would use them or pay for them. Perhaps he’ll donate the space to other organizations or simply demolish the buildings and sell the land. It isn’t really important how the land is used. It is important that those trying to take the land are called to accountability for their actions. They have been and now we move on.
Is he going to ask his declining parishes (yes, Brian, they ARE declining, according to your Church’s own ASA figures!) to lose people in order to prop up a once-thriving parish? C’mon, Brian! Get REAL! Your Church is SHRINKING!
As are many mainline denominations. I’m OK with that. I would rather be at the Table with those who want to be with me, than watching people refuse to partake because they feel uncomfortable or spiritually unable. It is healthy for those who need to leave to go and have their needs met. My needs are met by a shrinking church.
God bless you TLDillon. May you continue in His love.
There has not been a case where a church property has been taken back by lawsuits that has gone on to a viable parish.
Liberals like Brian can gloat, but like Pyrrhus said, one more victory like this and we are utterly undone.
See [url=http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200990611025 ]the story of an empty church property[/url] in Fort Collins CO (see the comment in the comment section) that is still listed at the asking price of $520,000 two years after the diocese refused to negotiate with the members. (The congregation has bought another property and is doing well.)
Brian I do not misunderstand the bible what so ever ….but I think you like to reinterpret it so you can feel good about yourself. I did not pick up a bible and throw it at you Brian I took scripture, the Word of God and put it before you. If Bruno and others who have engaged in suing churches and the people who have worshiped and paid for the maintenance on said property and building wanted to practice Christian ethics they would have negotiated with the church and its people to purchase it fairly and equitably. They have not done that and will not even consider it! Because for those like yourself and Bruno, you are more interested in owning material things than doing what is right in the eyes of God. GREED! And isn’t it nice that we as humans who will fall short from time to time can repent and turn back and do the right thing, ask for forgiveness and turn back to God and His Word and know that He will be faithful to forgive if we practice forgiving and practice charity towards others ourselves…..something I have yet to see TEc and Bruno do!
[b]”I’m OK with that.to be with me, than watching people refuse to partake because they feel uncomfortable or spiritually unable.”[/b]
1 Cor. 11:27-32
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. [28] Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. [29] For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. [30] That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. [31] But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. [32] But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
oops! I got submit happy my apologies…..
In other words I am in charge of my actions and I will make sure that I do not partake of the Holy Food & Drink if I am not in the right frame of mind with another brother or sister. I fear God far more than I fear a human being who has no rule over me! And my husband can atest to the fact as well as my priest whom I have talked with much over this that I have on more than one occasion not partaken of the Eucharist because of one reason or another with a brother or sister that I do not feel I am in communion with. So Brian….those who are not partaking communion with you for what ever their reason is should be worked out between you so that both sides can partake in a worthy manner. No one should par take just to make nicey nice….Judas comes to mind!
Well, Brian from T19, you did admit that your Church IS shrinking……and that’s encouraging, at least. I wonder how much longer it will be before others in TEC will admit it, too? So far, they’ve been in denial mode.
Isaiah 52:11 Depart, depart, go out from there, Touch nothing unclean; Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves, You who carry the vessels of the LORD.
Revelation 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues
II Cor. 6:4 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
17″Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
18″I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
“Come out and be separate from them” is, I believe, an appropriate Scripture for this situation. TEc is heading into a direction away from Scripture and from the Lord’s way, we cannot be faithful to the Lord and to TEc as well. If that means leaving the buildings behind, then so be it.
I remember reading a report on an early convocation of the American Anglican Fellowship, being addressed, I believe, by +Akinola. He was asked, “if we leave, will you support us in keeping our buildings?” he answered: you are in a burning building, we are trying to save your lives, and you want us to go back in and get your furniture? You have to decide if you want to be faithful to the Lord or to the buildings” (obviously I’m paraphrasing here).
Jim Elliott <>< Florida PS, this is not directed at those who feel called by the Lord to stay within TEc as an internal witness.
This hurts the heart. I’ve visited St. Luke’s twice in the past few years, and regard it as one of the finest congregations I have ever been blessed to visit. Their worship is joyful. The preaching is moving. And I must say I have never seen so many young people, 20s and 30s (the great lost generations), in an Episcopal church. And the people are as friendly as you any in the world. As a traveling visitor, I was warmly welcomed by people in my own age group, actively engaged, and invited out to lunch. When I returned over a year later, I was instantly recognized, and playfully chastized for not having visited more frequently, then taken out to lunch again. Each time I was not patronized but treated as if I had always been a member of their community, and indeed felt it was a glimpse of the true church, where we are all members of one body no matter where we are from or what our differences may be. In short, they are the Gospel lived well, a living piece of the Kingdom of God.
I have spent many long hours thinking about parish development through the lens of my experience with parishes I have visited in my travels. I have encountered parishes that were so unfriendly they found a way to warn me off before I even stepped in the door (no posted service times or contact information, an unlisted phone, and a reputation in the town for being hostile to visitors). I have found parishes where music, liturgy, and preaching was perfect, but the people were so unfriendly I never returned. I have found parishes where all of those essentials were lacking but the people were so friendly I returned again and again as long as I was in the area. And of course, I have found ones that are so wonderful in every respect that it is a joy to visit whenever I can. But this was the first time I had ever loved a community so much I wanted to move to the other end of my state just so I could be with them. I truly hope they persevere in a new location, and continue to be the salt and light I saw on those visits, visits that warmed my heart so thoroughly. God bless them all.
One poster writes: “I think they are willing to admit and were fully aware, they just saw [Gene Robinson’s] consecration as an enlightened justice issue that trumped everything else.”
Who would be willing to admit something so untrue? The great majority of those supporting Gene’s consecration understood it to be the fully appropriate Christian response.
#30. FFV,
[blockquote]The great majority of those supporting Gene’s consecration understood it to be the fully appropriate Christian response.[/blockquote]
I’m not sure what you are taking issue with here. To me seeing his consecration as a justice issue for TEC is the same thing as what you call a “fully appropriate response”. Justice is one of the prime directives of TEC.