The Lutherans aren’t sitting around for three years like the Episcopalians did. For them, the writing clearly is on the wall.
“One of the messages we heard loud and clear from the Episcopalians is that by waiting several years, they lost some of their best and brightest lay people,” Mr. [Ryan] Schwarz told me. “We intend to have our plans in place a lot faster.”
[blockquote]The Lutherans aren’t sitting around for three years like the Episcopalians did. For them, the writing clearly is on the wall.[/blockquote]
The handwriting is clearly on [b][i]our[/i][/b] “Wall” for all to see — who don’t want to be blind, that is.
And it has been a whole lot more than 3 years — and for some of us, it is going to just go on endlessly
No end. Just sit tight and keep waiting for Godot.
To paraphrase the famous quote: “Sometimes your purpose in life is to be a warning for others.”
I was worried when CORE initially said that they would take a year to think it over. I suppose people can hold on for a year without a plan, but any longer would result in a repeat of the Episcopal dwindles.
CORE has nowhere to go. WO seems to head inexorably in the direction of GO, except for some splinter groups.
Uh #4, with all due respect, would the Diocese of Pittsburgh (Anglican) and AMIA count as splinter groups? Do they also have nowhere to go? Fortunately and with respect for both points of view, ACNA has made provisions for both WO and non-WO. It is, after all, not a sin to be a woman.
I’m glad that Julia Duin featured a couple nice quotes from Ryan Schwartz of McLean, who often comments here at T19. If we’re fortunate, either he, or Brian in Maryland, or some other orthodox Lutheran leader will chime in here.
I’m also glad Ms. Duin pointed out that one of the best known ELCA congregations in the country, huge Community Church of Joy in Phoenix (membership: 6,800), a seeker-sensitive, Willow Creek style, Lutheran-lite parish, became one of the first churches to bolt, departing promptly on September 27th. Of course, some traditional Lutherans would say that was no big loss, as CCJ was never very Lutheran to begin with. But that sounds like the old sour grapes excuse to me.
I think Walt Kallestad is one of the most innovative and successful missionary pastors in any liturgical, sacramental denomination. I differ from some of his strategic decisions, and his church isn’t my cup of tea, but he’s doing more to build the Kingdom of God in the US than whole synods in the ELCA, or whole dioceses in TEC.
Hmmm. CORE originally meant COalition for REnewal. But I’m wondering if now that they’ve opted for the “outside strategy,” they shouldn’t think of it as COalition for REFORMATION, not mere renewal.
Bravo. Good for CORE. The New Reformation is by no means limited to Anglicans. I think it will eventually sweep all the so-called “mainline” denominations, with the PCUSA probably next. Or the Disciples of Christ. The UMC and the American Baptists may hold out longest, but even they will be hit sooner or later.
It’s really hard for a church tradition that prides itself in being part of the social “mainstream” to resist sea changes in the mainstream culture. The Lutherans used to be somewhat insulated because of their strong ethnic roots and equally strong confessional orienation. Sadly, the latter has clearly been eclipsed by the desire of ELCA’s leaders to go “mainstream” and catch up with where the cultural elite is headed.
Of course, the German Lutherans have a good word for that familiar problem of a state church tradition (or [i]volk kirche[/i]), namely, [b]Kulturprotestantismus[/b]. And it’s not a nice word either.
David Handy+
Re # 5
I think the point being made by A Senior Priest (#4) was that W/O was the camel’s nose under the tent. Once you begin tossing out inconvenient doctrine universally held by the church catholic (small “c”) it becomes very difficult to draw the line elsewhere. Theological revisionism is a very slippery slope.
In ICXC
John
I would guess they think they need a year to do a plan. I expect some Lutheran Churches will end up in LCMS. I think one can see three strands at work – Modernist Orthodox, Traditionalist Orthodox, and Modernist Liberal. The big question is can Modernist Orthodox and Traditional Orthodox stay in the larger tent – in ACNA’s situation there are three – Evangelical Modernist Orthodox, Evangelical Traditional Orthodox, and Catholic Traditional Orthodox.
Re # 8
Chips,
Just a very small quibble. Please be careful when writing the word orthodox. When you capitalize the “o” it has the same implication as a big “c” in Catholic. I have never heard of Modernist Orthodox before. But I have some knowledge of Traditionalist Orthodox and I am pretty sure they are not who you are referring to in your post. 🙂
Under the mercy,
John
#9 I am well aware that the ‘O’rthodox lay exclusive claim to being The ‘C’hurch but to lay claim to the ‘O’ in Orthodox I think sets a dangerous precedent and should we allow you to get away with it no doubt you will be laying claim to the ‘A’ in Ad and the ‘O’ in Orientem as well. Where will it all end? Will you be claiming the ‘P’ in Pageantmaster next?
LOL I think you have the ‘P’ locked up. But for the record I am simply restating commonly accepted rules in the English Language. Certain terms when capitalized have very specific connotations. Some people ignore those rules. But they are nonetheless widely accepted. “Catholic” and “catholic” are almost universally understood to have different meanings.
When you capitalize a noun you make it “proper noun.”
When you capitalise a Noun you seek to make it a defined term – it is a form of Capitalist Imperialism!
chips (#8),
There are AT LEAST three strands in the ACNA, probably more, and only time will tell how well we’ll get along together and cohere, or not.
But I must say that I don’t like the adjective “Modernist” at all. Since I firmly support both WO and centrist modern biblical scholarship, I’m often accused of being a liberal in conservative’s clothing over at Stand Firm, but I ardently deny it. Would you be willing to clarify what you meant by such a provocative term?
David Handy+
Then again in an Anglican context we often capitalise a noun to refer to a group with particular characteristics: ‘C’onservative, ‘O’rthodox, ‘R’evisionist, ‘R’easserter, ‘H’eretic, etc. So it all gets a bit confusing, and then again we do talk about ‘A’nglo-‘C’atholic to mean ‘C’atholic ‘A’nglicans.
But maybe we should quit arguing and come up with some franchise arrangement, perhaps with a small licence fee? What do you say? What is the ‘O’ worth on a 5 year exclusive use arrangement with a renewal option do you reckon John?
Anglo-Catholic is a proper noun. No issues there. The others, with the exception of “heretic” seem to be terms largely invented or given proper noun status among Anglicans. Again no real issue.
Beyond that all I can do is stand on the rules of English grammar. We live in an age where people feel free to ignore rules and there is little one can do about it except bemoan the loss of a certain graciousness in our society. As for licensing proper nouns, I wonder how exactly you propose to guarantee our rights? 😛
ooops wrong emoticon
Well rules is rules AO. Enforcement would be a matter for the franchisee. However I suppose one might, for example, leave little notes for offenders pointing out their gramatical errors and demanding that they return to the lower case or in cases of egregious disobedience, leave little emoticons with sticking out tongues as a form of public humiliation of the miscreant, akin to a period in the stocks.
IMHO, CORE is going at it the right way. There are some congregations that simply have to leave quickly. CCOJ in Arizona was one of them. Walt was a mentor for me in the mid-90’s. He taught a generation of us how to do effective evangelism while remaining theological grounded. His leaving is a huge shot across the bow of the ELCA.
But as I say, there are some who can and will leave quickly. There are others, probably the bulk, who will need that year to plan, lead, design a new sense of structure toward which to head, etc., etc.
I attended to the CORE gathering in Indiana. When I’m asked how did it go, my response has become, “Well, I spent a couple of days with 1400 (the more likely number) Lutheran leaders, heard a lot of presentations, voted on a few things, and participated in numerous conversations and … for the first time in a very long time … I didn’t find myself PO’d after about 20 minutes.” That may seem like an odd marker, but for me it was a revelation how much I had grown to despise attending synod assemblies in the ELCA. The CORE gathering elicited a very different reaction.
RE: “”One of the messages we heard loud and clear from the Episcopalians is that by waiting several years, they lost some of their best and brightest lay people . . . ”
Certainly an oft and loudly-stated dictum. But the truth is, leave or stay in the ELCA they will also leave behind or lose “some of their best and brightest lay people.”
Which is fine.
That’s the consequences of the choices people make.
#12 LOL Paegantmaster! Perhaps a two-tier communion of case will emerge. To paraphrase St. Paul, “The letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.”
WO keeping people from joining the LCMS is what I expected (close communion will be the other issue). Once you go down the WO road it is very hard to go back. For one thing you basically have to tell a group of people (i.e. women) that they no longer have a job (i.e. pastor). This is why I hope the LCMS never starts down this path.
[url=http://www.lutherancore.org]Lutheran CORE[/url] first organized after the 2005 Churchwide Assembly (CWA) as the COalition for REform (of the ELCA). It was formed in the wake of the moderate success of Solid Rock Lutherans to defeat proposals to provide for the ordination of practicing homosexuals and the blessing of gay unions. Solid Rock was the first time ELCA “traditionalists” found a way to wok together after the bitter debate within the ELCA over the Concordat/Call to Common Mission with the ECUSA, which didn’t really conclude until the 2001 CWA.
With the conclusion of the 2009 CWA, Lutheran CORE is recasting itself as the COalition for Renewal of North American Lutheranism. ELCA “traditionalists” fall in similar strands as North American Anglicans, but our history as being in one church together only dates to 1988. And, as many feared when the 3 churches came together without first coming to any agreement on the Ministry or the nature of the Church, we’ve been unable to come up with anything that satisfies the various understandings.
The leaders of the Coalition (and I think the word important) have very deliberately set out to include those intent upon remaining in the ELCA, those who are departing, those who have already departed, and those who have never been a part of the ELCA. (Hence the “reconfiguration of North American Lutheranism.”)
IMHO, apart from the dramatic intervention of the Holy Spirit, the emergence of a single, strong reasserter Lutheran church body over the next year is quite unlikely. Muhlenberg’s vision of one Lutheran church with one liturgy in the one land (which drove the formation of the ELCA from the LCA’s side) had already been set aside, perhaps even forgotten, by the 2005 CWA discussions on the Renewing Worship project — which gave us the new hymnal/”worship resource.” We’ve been burned by our experience as “one church” in the ELCA; it’ll take at least a generation or two to recover.
But even in the days before we moved to form the ELCA, Lutherans found ways to co-operate in mission (both at home and abroad) and social ministry (relief, charity, etc.) and even joint theological work — even when formal Altar and Pulpit fellowship did not exist. Some of us are hoping that Lutheran CORE can be a Free Synod — not a single, organized denomination, but a way Lutherans of various organizations (“free”) and stripes, can gather together, or walk together (“synod”) for common purposes and mutual support. Something both more “grassroots” and churchly than the old Lutheran Council in the USA, perhaps a stronger (but also more limited) confederation like the old United Lutheran Church in America or her predecessors. And, at this point, who knows who among the Lutherans be willing to try this out.
That’s Lutheran CORE’s task for the next year.
Pax, Steven+
Chair, CORE Illinois Steering Committee
Thanks to Brian in Maryland (#18), and Steven Tibbetts (#22), for chiming in here, as participants in CORE. I can readily appreciate the sense of liberation and relief that Brian felt in Indy compared with what he’d grown accustomed to at regular ELCA gatherings.
It will be interesting to see how CORE evolves over the next year, or two or three. If CORE can avoid being confined to just one synod or denomination that would indeed be promising. But it also may indicate that Lutherans are prone to regard matters of church polity as mere adiaphora (as in the controversial Article VII of the great Augsburg Confession). Needless to say, that strikes many of us Anglicans (myself included) as being far too loose and casual an approach. But in turn, that may only tend to show how much I think orthodox Anglicans and orthodox Lutherans can benefit from much closer fellowship, cooperation, and cross-fertilization.
David Handy+
As a current CCOJ Member and a recent Board member please be advised of the following: CCOJ is not a ” seeker-sensitive, Willow Creek style” church AND HAS NOT BEEN for a number of years. In addition the membership is not 6800, our average attendance for the past 18 months has been 950-1100 which had us outside the “top 25” ELCA congregations(hardly huge). This has been true for 2-3 years. CCOJ is currently at it’s lowest average attendance in 20 years. Also concerning the topic of leaving the ELCA, Dr. Kallestad was not an active particpant in this congregational movement and was not present at any of the 8 congregational information meetings held prior to the votes being taken. Members who did not agree with the approach taken or the decision to leave the ELCA were encouraged to leave CCOJ. Currently CCOJ is under investigation by the AZ Attorney General’s office due to certain irregularities concerning the school run by CCOJ. As a result of distractions, there has been little or no effective evangelism or ministry performed in the past 2 years.
Truthbeknown (#24),
Thanks for setting the record straight. Boy, am I out of date! Obviously, CCOJ has gone through some very big transitions and some hard times. It must have been discouraging for leaders there like yourself. I’m glad you hung in there.
David Handy+