Three American priests who left the Episcopal Church after it appointed an openly gay bishop in 2003 have been consecrated as bishops in Africa. They’re returning to minister to American congregations, but will report to conservative churches in Africa.
Listen to it all. In the piece, Bill Atwood is wrongly identified as being from Massachusetts; he is from Texas and it is Bill Murdoch who is in Massachusetts. Jan Nunley tries her tired this-is-no-big-deal-the numbers-of-parishes-involved-are-so-small line, which continues to fail mightily not only with the secular media as well as a number of our sister denominations which see us as an example of how not to proceed, but also with the reality in the church on the ground. When you consider the number of people who have departed as individuals, as well as the number of parishes springing up of people who wish to be Anglicans but do not wish to be associated with TEC, along with the number of parishes and dioceses still in TEC who wish no part of the national leadership’s new theology (think Windsor Bishops, Network Dioceses, numerous groups of organized reasserting clergy and lay people, and many others), you have a quite significant problem.
Indeed, even one national church study (not to mention the statistics) makes this clear:
Only 20% [fully] endorse the actions of General Convention [2003].
Now, ask any priest out there, Jan, how they would feel if only 20% of their vestry was fully behind their capital campaign in terms of whether the capital campaign would work? As they say denial is not a river in Egypt. You cannot judge the degree of opposition to the terrible and mistaken choices made in 2003 with the number of parishes which, as nearly entire parishes, left, because in our polity it is quite difficult to achieve the degree of support and unity necessary for a whole parish (or diocese) to make such a choice, AND, those opposed have differing discernments about how best to proceed at the present time.
Oh and I have a question which I bet has occurred to some of you. Now that it is September 2007, where in the world are the statistics for calendar year 2006?–KSH
Update: The thoughts of Alan Guelzo are worth recalling as well.
Well hidden Kendall. And I bet they don’t want to release them at all. 2005 stats didn’t get released until January 2007 and they slipped them onto their website without a single mention of the update.
“My point was that the convention’s actions do not reflect the outlook of the majority of people in the pews of Episcopal churches, as the Episcopal Church Foundation’s national survey and a variety of interviews and conversations have revealed.”
An important quote from Bill Sachs
What is the theological difference between a conservative Methodist and a conservative Anglican?
Perhaps you might not think this question germane, but I think that there are many, many more congregations looking for a home. All this current disorder will, I believe, shake out many (up to) 200 year old problems.
May God bless the rebuilding of His Church.
Here is one thing I believe to be true: If the national statistics showed even a tiny uptick, they would be paraded loudly and released as soon as possible. The fact that they still aren’t out yet I would guess means there is more bad news.
It really isn’t possible for the numbers to be anything other than bad for 2006 and 2007. Consider just Christ Church, Plano, and all the Virginia parishes who have left recently. Unless the dioceses play with numbers, there will be big declines in both Dallas and Virginia as a result.
The Washington Post had an article a while ago which said:
“So far, the heads, or primates, of Anglican provinces overseas have taken under their wings 200 to 250 of the more than 7,000 congregations in the Episcopal Church, the U.S. branch of Anglicanism. Among their gains are some large and wealthy congregations — including several in Northern Virginia — that bring international prestige and a steady stream of donations.”
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=25408&sec=18&con=4
If the ASA decline is no big deal, then Nunley and TEC must not care much about all those who have left TEC either formally or refused to go to church there anymore. Tremendous attitude.
Only 20% [fully] endorse the actions of General Convention [2003].
Kendall, the key word here is fully (which you correctly added). Polls show that around 67% of Catholics (and around 72% of Protestants) support the Death Penalty. So is it fair to say: Only 33% of American Catholics do not [fully] endorse the teachings of the Church?
Yes Kendall: For context, do you have any idea what the other relevant percentages might be? For example, might we have only 20% fully endorsing the actions of GC2003, but with another 70% saying they’re willing to go along with those actions?
“Jan Nunley tries her tired this-is-no-big-deal-the numbers-of-parishes-involved-are-so-small line”
Most dying regimes discount their opposition in the early phases of revolution. Eventually the insignificant peasants roll in to Havanna.
Brien [#10] writes: “Eventually the insignificant peasants roll in to Havanna [sic].”
In Havana, one of the first orders of business for the successful revolutionaries was to summarily put hundreds of their defeated adversaries in front of firing squads. In the unlikely event that the separatists win this war for control of TEC, Brien, could we “reappraisers” look forward to whatever the ecclesiastical analogy might be?
No, DC. And your comment is beneath you. We will form our own Anglican Provence and leave you where you are, while praying that you recognize Jesus as the Christ.
It’s Labor Day, so let us please not get into unnecessary huffing and puffing by pushing any analogy too far–thanks.
Yes, where are those stats? I’m especially interested in the gender break down of clergy in TEC. People have been contacting me with data about women clergy who have left TEC. I’m working on this and could use more input. Any readers who know of former ECUSA/TEC clergywomen may contact me at aproeditor at windstream dot net. I need first name only, whether she was a priest or deacon, where she resides, the year she left ordained ministry and the church she joined. So far, all the women I have on the list either joined the Orthodox Church of the Roman Catholic Church.
That should read “Orthodox Church OR the Roman Catholic Church.”
No, Br. Michael, I think D.C. is correct on his analogy… except that he is looking throught the wrong end of the binoculars. How could anyone reasonable look at what has gone on in TEC the last four years and see it other than a “purge” approach against traditionalists. Sure, there are varying levels in different dioceses. But there is clearly a widespread effort to drive out traditionalists and consolidate a political victory. This experience has show that in the Church, as well as secular society, a small, committed core can overwhelm a relatively passive majority.
Since the Episcopal Church will only transfer members to another Episcopal Church, how difficult would it be to find out just how many MEMBERS (not Parishes) have left TEC since Conv 2003. My understanding is that they have or will become classed as inactive members at the church they left. Thereby keeping the standing numbers intact and inaccurate.
I would also like to know how to go about getting my name removed from the Parish records of the Church I left ? Any ideas ?
You all need to remember something I’ve said before. TEC does not consider any congregation as “gone” if they consider the departure illegal. They continue to count it as if it’s still there. My parish left late in 2004 along with two other Los Angeles parishes. Therefore, TEC did not have any ASA, baptized membership numbers, or plate offerings reported for 2004 or 2005–or for that matter, 2006. They have simply copied and pasted the 2003 numbers into the new charts for the next two years and counted us that way! (The actual membership under our former name is exactly TWO.) They will do the same with the Virginia parishes, and their numbers will not show a decrease. If you’re a member of an ex-Episcopal parish, check your chart. The only one I’ve seen disappear from the listings is Christ Church, Plano, which paid a huge price to ransom the property from the diocese. (Perhaps someone else can give the URL for the 2005 charts; I can’t access pdf files anymore.) The last time I checked our three charts, there were lines straight across from 2003 on for all three data measurements.
Also, didn’t someone say that TEC does not consider any member as “gone,” either unless that member is transferred to another TEC church? Therefore, anyone who stops attending or decides to change denominations is still counted as a baptized member.
If TEC were a publicly-traded corporation, the SEC would be coming down on it hard for falsifying its annual reports.
By the way, Brian from T19, love your signature line. Thanks for not engaging in name-calling with those with whom you disagree. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. When you meet in your heart the one who met Paul on the road to Damascus, He makes Himself a certainty to you. He doesn’t make you into a facist. Happy name-calling!
#6 “taken under their wings 200 to 250 of the more than 7,000 congregations in the Episcopal Church” is wrong. Even the Washington Post muffs one from time to time. Nunley’s number (45ish) is more like it as far as the number of congregations that have left. The other figure represents the number under other provinces including new starts, and house churches. Both sides seem to like to argue in terms of congregations. Membership matters too as Kendall is underscoring. Where are the membership numbers for the non-TEC churches? Dunno.
Also, didn’t someone say that TEC does not consider any member as “gone,†either unless that member is transferred to another TEC church? Therefore, anyone who stops attending or decides to change denominations is still counted as a baptized member.
If this is the case, how do the numbers show a continual decline?
““So it is a precipitous drop in losing 36,000 in both 2003 and 2004, and now 42,000 in 2005.†So said Kirk Hadaway, the denomination’s director of research.
Jan Nunley’s attempt to minimize how serious that is simply isn’t working. Just look at the number of dioceses consider altering giving requirements and/or instituting mandatory assessments.
Nunley’s number John in #20, does NOT work because the number of people TEC is losing is way more than just 45 congregations. Guelzo is devastating:
There is no telling, either, how many of us are just holding on a little longer to see if there is a place made for reasserters or a change in TEC’s direction. How many more will leave after September? More leave after each meeting, each GC. TEC’s own numbers show that it is not a “small” problem.
to 11, DC,
Thank you for observing my typo/spelling error. [sic] is such a courteous device in conversation; I always appreciate it. It is of course, Havana or Habana.
And to others who may have taken my illustration too far or found it offensive, I am sorry. Other illustrations of the same sort might come from scripture:
mustard seeds, leaven, etc.
If the revolutionary analogy were to be pushed, it would break down quickly because those who appear insignificant today really don’t want the goods or the blood of the leadership of TEC. I at least, only want a faithful church.
All you have to do to see the fallaciousness of the Jan Nunley spin attempt is to look at the situation in Midland, Texas. This thread
http://new.kendallharmon.net/wp-content/uploads/index.php/t19/article/5324
says there is a new church there which is Anglican. There are a lot of people in it. They just called a new rector.
Ah, but not every single person left. There is a small rump congregation associated with TEC. Maybe it will be viable, maybe not, we shall see.
But the point it is that according to the West Texas article in the new Anglican parish:
There used to be one parish, now there are two. It is going on in different ways all throughout the country, and it is quite serious.
Statistics is a deadly game best left to the professionals. Is TEC losing numbers? Of course! Even ++Katharine admits that. Is there a causal link between theology and membership? Who knows. It can certainly be inferred, but perhaps not established without a very specific study. The problem is even further compounded by the artificial nature of membership statistics. It is a bad place to stake claims either pro or con. Direct research will always trump self reporting.
Is there a causal link between theology and membership? Who knows. It can certainly be inferred, but perhaps not established without a very specific study.
LOL!!! By all means, do a study. Maybe you will uncover a clue.
John Chilton, what on earth are you talking about?
We have the following entities from 2003 onward [note that I am not counting the AMiA, which has also picked up parishes, most notably but not limited to Christ Church, Plano]:
CANA [Nigeria] — 40 parishes
Southern Cone — 35 parishes
Central Africa [???]
Kenya — 30 parishes
Uganda — 33 parishes
19 parishes in the Diocese of Virginia alone have left.
It is farcical to claim “45ish” as the number of parishes gone. Unless of course, you are doing the old “parishes do not leave ECUSA” scam, which in that case means precisely ZERO have left [which would cause reasserters to laugh even more].
Brian from T19, I am sure you will be gratified to know that such studies have already been done by our own director of research Kirk Hadaway.
I basically quote him every day now, but for some Terribly Strange reason, no matter how much I quote our very own Director of Research, revisionists continue to make the same oblivious comments. I can’t imagine why! ; > )
[blockquote]”In fact we were actually doing better than most other mainline denominations in the 1990s through 2002, with a few years of growth,” Hadaway told the CENTURY. “So it is a precipitous drop in losing 36,000 in both 2003 and 2004, and now 42,000 in 2005.”
Half of the losses stemmed from parish conflicts over the 2003 Episcopal General Convention’s approval of the election of an openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire, according to Hadaway.”[/blockquote]
Mr. Harmon, out of curiosity – if you so detest the Episcopal Church why haven’t you left? I’m not encouraging you to do so!!! I’m merely curious. It seems that more and more of your attention and enthusiasm of late seems to be for those who have left the Episcopal Church behind. You should try talking to some gay folks, you might find them to be nice and polite and cordial. And, you may also be startled to learn that they have personal faith stories of how much Jesus means to them.
Coincidentally, not all parishes in the Episcopal Church are dwindling as some of you would have us believe. My own parish (which I will decline to name — don’t want to open her up to granades being thrown from all those who wish to provide and asterisk to my argument) has grown nearly 15% SINCE 2003. And, they’re not people leaving other Episcopal churches to join, but rather coming from other denominations.
Mark, who said I detest the Episcopal Church? You, not I. Making observations–even about difficult to admit truths–does not mean one is motivated by “destestation.”
As for where attention goes, it goes to where the news is at the time, which, given three African consecrations recently, goes there.
Incidentally, I am still here in the diocese of South Carolina, and for that I take a lot of flack from some reasserters.
Who was it (Twain?) that said something like, [blockquote] “There are liars, damned liars, and then there are statisticians” [/blockquote]
Kendall, this is your blog; if you want to characterize other people’s comments as “unnecessary huffing and puffing,” that’s certainly your prerogative. It would be discourteous for a guest like me to apply that label to, say, your own comments in your original posting.
I will, however, venture to ask for better evidentiary support of your assertions, in the form of links, or at least cites, to the “statistics” you cite in your comments. All I could find in a few minutes of searching was the August 2004 summary by Bill Sachs, which you cited on the old blog back then.
The picture Sachs painted, three years ago, is decidedly different than the one you suggest in your comments. Sachs said that, while many Episcopalians weren’t thrilled about the top-down approach taken by GC2003, most TEC leaders were of a mind to agree to disagree about the merits of The Current Disputes:
That certainly doesn’t sound like an 80% ready to bolt from a church whose leadership has been captured by liberal revolutionaries, as you appear to be trying to imply in your original comments.
Incidentally, I too would love to see the 2006 ASA numbers. I’d like to know, for example, whether my own very-large, very-wealthy, very-evangelical parish’s ASA continues to be essentially flat, as it has been for the better part of a decade now.
(For those interested in the 1995-2005 parish and diocese ASA and pledge and plate charts, see http://12.0.101.92/, which I’m linking to here so I’ll have a better chance of finding them again.)
Oh dear, Rev. Dr. Canon Kendall Harmon, I am so sorry for the person making the comments above. Know, above all else how valued your are by your readers, no matter where your feet are planted.
I apologize, for those who do not understand.
Also, someone opined above about the “disparity” in numbers. That’s truely an easy one. When it comes to “touting” numbers, ECUSA uses “membership” counts. But where the true figures come into play is the ASA, where altho the numbers can be “inflated”, the $s seldom match.
Again, Blessed are those who suffer in his name.
Gloria
D.C. you have misread me, the huffing and puffing was in reference to the Havana anology. My sources for the citation were clear in the original post.
The key thing the flawed national study shows is a huge distance between the grassroots and the leadership–and that hasn’t changed. I didn’t imply anything of the sort about percentages ready to bolt.
#39 clearly doesn’t know Dr. Harmon very well at all since he is well known for NOT being enthusiastic about departures.
Brian in #26, you changed the question. The question is–is this a split, or: is this a big deal? That is what Ms. Nunley is quoted on.
Brien [#24], on further reflection I probably did overreact to your analogy about the Cuban revolutionaries, and surrendered to what well-known law professor Jim McElhaney calls “Mongo.” I apologize for offense given.
(That goes for you too, Kendall.)
The headline above “From NPR: Three Traditionalist Episcopal Priests Return to U.S. after African Consecrations” is incorrect and imprecise from the get-go. It should read “Three Traditionalist Anglican Bishops”. That is more accurate.
The headline as posted (and I assume that’s the headline NPR used) implies that they are still “Episcopalian” and still “priests”. But they’re not either anymore.
Connie the headline is my fault since I didn’t feel NPR’s was accurate or helpful. I have made an adjustment see what you think.
Trying to cite the number of “parishes” which have left TEC is simply a game of semantics. It is nearly impossible at this point to know exactly how many parishes left in their entirety, leaving behind no parishoners or buildings at all which a diocese could still leave on the books (of course in some dioceses nothing appears to be able to get a parish off the books). What we really need is a definitive list of all the parishes which have had a significant number of parishoners/priests leave. This is the significant number. It seems Bishop Sauls is working on such a list 🙂
RE: “You should try talking to some gay folks, you might find them to be nice and polite and cordial.”
LOL.
Maybe Mark Johnson should get to know some reasserters then, since it appears he doesn’t know much about us. ; > )
And Kendall . . . you need to stop being “divisive” by pointing out that the Episcopal church is losing people by the drove. Please — pointing these things out means that you need to leave.
Sherri, re your question in #21, we’re talking about two ways of counting memberships. There is the baptized membership, and it seems that you don’t get off that list unless you die or are transferred to another Episcopal parish. Then there’s the “Average Sunday Attendance.” That one is a little hard to fudge since it’s done by counting the heads of those who show up. In my parish, however, only the actual communion wafers consumed get counted and entered into a log, so it’s probably less than the–how shall I put it politely–bottoms warming pews.
Now the question becomes, “Which one are they using when they claim 2.3 million members?” Anybody want to guess that it’s the “baptized membership?”
ASA – Average Sunday Attendance – is as close to a real number of participants as we are likely to get. Note that (1) most clergy estimate numbers and ASA can be 10 per cent high and (2) even regular attenders and contributors seem to make it to church about twice a month. The total number of pledging units is also usually a good number but adjustments for family units may need to be made.
Tom Rightmyer in Asheville, NC
Power to the People!
How seriously can one take “membership” figures in a church which defines “active membership” as attendance at three services a year? There are numerous problems with attendance and membership figures in the institution formerly known as ECUSA, not least the inflated figures which form the basis of each year’s parochial report. I know of at least 4 churches personally where “active membership” was 2 to 4 times higher than actual Sunday attendance.
Remember this is the institution whose presiding bishop would not allow an audit of a treasurer since he believed criticisms of her accounting practices (later determined to be embezzlement of a substantial sum) arose only because she was a woman. And of course, this is the same institution which apparently is unwilling to make public the sources of its funding for its lawsuits against parishes.
Nunley and her friends can talk numbers all they want – they have the credibility of Pinocchio.
More than once I have given thought to the following question; now I will ask it.
Supposing all the TEC parishes that have disagreed with the present road TEC is following banded together and left the TEC and joined up with the Anglican Communion. It is my humble opinion that the that if the 815 lawyers considered suing all the parishes that left they might not because I don’t think that TEC has enough money to sue a large group of united parishes.
I was absent for 8 years from my [b]P[/b]ECUSA home church (during which I had d a very serious set of encounters with the Son and the Spirit). Following up on a prophecy (and discovering, of all things, that there really was such a thing as an evangelical episcopalian), I rejoined ECUSA in another city. I was pleased to find that my membership was still recorded in my previous church, and was officially transferred to my new parish.
Membership has its benefits. If I had not been on the role in my previous parish, I would have had to go through the series of classes, etc. to join my new parish.
(ps: I left [b]P[/b]ECUSA, rejoined ECUSA, then became a Ugandan. I don’t think I was ever a member of TEC.)
from the Briar Patch,
Harvey, that’s exactly what is happening–that chuches are leaving and are being sued by TEC if they try to take their property with them. The individual dioceses are the ones doing the suing, aided by David Booth Beers and the national church. Somehow, they’re finding the money to do it. I simply don’t know how $750/hour lawyers are getting paid for three years’ worth of litigation to sue just three ex-parishes in Los Angeles. You can’t find it in the diocesan budget. It’s a huge waste of money, but it’s coming from somewhere, so that’s why five retired bishops are asking 815 for answers. Pension funds? Trust funds? Their pockets seem bottomless, but it must be worth the millions to make an example of us.
[blockquote] Supposing all the TEC parishes that have disagreed with the present road TEC is following banded together and left the TEC and joined up with the Anglican Communion. [/blockquote]
To chime in along with Sue, [i]Harvey, that’s exactly what is happening[/i]. As we speak (and write, and blog) we are witnessing the banding together of the TEC parishes that have disagreed with the path they have taken. Wait a while, and you will see even more: the banding together will include whole communities of parishes that left ECUSA years and years ago.
When will we all realize that this path of lawsuits will only lead to transfer the wealth of TECUSA to trial lawyers? The worst negotiated settlement is better than the best litigated one.
There needs to be some way to transfer title of a piece of property that honors both the members’ contribution to the diocese and the diocese’ contribution to the parish. Perhaps giving the “new” parish free rent for a period of several years while they find or fund a new sight? Maybe allow them to purchase the property from the diocese for a reduced rate? If 70+% of a parish desires to leave, the remaining 30-% will not be able to keep the doors open for long nor will they be able to fund the staff. The diocese will be left with a liability that needs to be sold. Enough churches on the market will make for a depressed market for worship spaces.
Please, step away from the lawyers!
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Kendall, in light of the above accusation that you “detest” TEC I found David Virtue’s characterization simply hilarious: “With establishment theologian Canon Kendall Harmon in residence, pensions will triumph over sound doctrine..” Looks like you can’t win with either side.
“With establishment theologian Canon Kendall Harmon in residence, pensions will triumph over sound doctrine..â€
Yes, Kendall can win. I have always said that I am glad that I am not making the decisions that those few godly people in TEC must make. They aren’t simple decisions. Honorable people have made a great variety of difficult decisions. I don’t know that they are all right – or, all wrong. My duty as a fellow christian is to pray for all who seek to make Jesus Christ Lord. If Kendall does so then he can’t lose.
Fun and games with membership numbers – in the end, these are the numbers that matter to me:
4 souls – my wife’s, my children’s and mine, now safe from the teachings of TEC
400 souls – those of our parish’s membership, now safe from the teaching of TEC
An uncountable number of souls that will in the future be safe from the teaching’s of TEC.
I could care less whether TEC keeps me on it’s roles; I am not saved by membership in TEC.
#51, David Virtue’s antipathy to Kendall is simply huge, and, like his hatred of the TEC establishment, it colors all too much of his work.
Very sad.
Tom Rightmeyer, the other factor in ASA is that the “Christmas” effect where if Christmas eve falls on the weekend (as it did in 2000, 2005, 2006 and next in 2011), the ASA is somewhat inflated. This the data for ASA starting from 2001 which was the peak:
Year ASA (in k) % change
2001 111
2002 109 (1.33)
2003 106 (3.00)
2004 102 (3.75)
2005 101 (0.97)
Kirk Hadaway acknowledges the Christmas effect in 2005 and estimates the true drop of “about two and half per cent” adjusted for the Christmas effect. Since both 2005 and 2006 are Christmas effect years, one won’t need any hand waving to to get a per cent drop (I am assuming that the ASA won’t go up P) .) when the 2006 stats come out.
edistobeachwalker and DonGander: Pensions unfortunately are playing a role here, and that should be acknowledged. In my mom’s church in Denver, only after the rector’s retirement was vested did he leave with a good percentage of the congregation to AMiA. One can’t really criticize this but to know that middle-aged priests would get absolutely hammered if they bolt. Something you need to know about your own clergy is when they will be vested. I am quite sure that Beers and Sauls have this data on Kendall, etc. Is that sad or what! This is more of a consideration in revisionist dioceses, however, not like the one where Kendall is fortunate to reside.
Whether or not our clergy would lose their pensions was discussed at length when my parish voted to leave ECUSA. The number of years needed to be fully vested by the Church Pension Fund was either three or five. (Funny, I can’t remember, but it was very short.) Our rector’s pension was secure, but our associate rector’s was not; he had been contributing only two years. Knowing that they would be inhibited and deposed, we were concerned that their pensions might be forfeited, but that’s illegal. I think that what our associate lost was replaced by the vestry; it wasn’t much. The ACN has a pension fund now, so pensions should not be a factor in someone’s decision whether to go or stay.
As to whether orthodox Episcopalians should be “in” or “out”–this is a matter of conscience and usefulness. Some need to be working on the inside so they can do things that ex-Episcopalians can’t. Others need to be outside. Is anyone demanding that Bishops Schofield, Duncan, Ackerman, et al leave the Episcopal Church right this minute? When God says it’s time, they’ll leave and not sooner. I hold them all, including Kendall, in the very highest regard because I know they’re listening intently for God’s direction.
#39 – Kendall, they are not priest anymore. They were traditionalists priests when the left the US of A, but now they are traditionalist bishops. 🙂
Addendum – except that all bishops are also priests.
Thanks for the info, Sue.
DonGander,
Thank you. Keep up your good work.
RGEaton