I was very disgusted, upset and saddened to read the statement of Bishop Isaac Orama as quoted by the News Agency of Nigeria in a UPI story who, (if he is quoted accurately, and I am assuming that he is) said that persons involved in same sex behavior “are insane, satanic and are not fit to live.”
It was the Primates of the Anglican Communion who said at Dromantine:
We also wish to make it quite clear that in our discussion and assessment of the moral appropriateness of specific human behaviours, we continue unreservedly to be committed to the pastoral support and care of homosexual people. The victimisation or diminishment of human beings whose affections happen to be ordered towards people of the same sex is anathema to us. We assure homosexual people that they are children of God, loved and valued by him, and deserving of the best we can give of pastoral care and friendship (vii).
They were quite right to say so, and to call us to a such good standard during a stressful time. By that standard, the statement from the UPI story utterly fails.
It is, however, worse than that. We are all in the global village now, like it or not, and the world is indeed flat. So what we say needs to take seriously the resonances that it may bring out in contexts other than our own. There could hardly be a worse statement in a Western context than to say of ANYONE that he or she is “not fit to live.” It immediately brings to mind the Nazi language of Lebensunwertes Leben (“life unworthy of life”) and in flood images and activities too horrendous and horrific for any of us to take in even at this historical distance from the events themselves.
These words are to be utterly repudiated by all of us–I hope and trust–KSH.
Grievously misguided words. I join in deploring them.
Thank you Kendall!!!!!
Earlier today, I was in dilemma. I’ve tried to keep a thread from going off topic based on folks posting this link, which is hard because while right to not allow it to take over a Ugandan, Kenyan or Rwandan thread – all of Africa is not Nigeria, yet, I was also nauseated by these words.
I see one did take my suggestion and engaged in conversation on Stand Firm about this topic, and I’m glad an outlet was given in context. I do pray Church of Nigeria appropriate steps in the case.
Thank you for this statement and providing thread this can be discussed.
Agreed. If that quote is accurate, he ought to resign or be forced to resign.
I also think that the abuse of women by modern culture, child abuse, broken homes, nihilism, and all the other sins should be utterly repudiated as well. It seems that the only time we do any real repudiating is when we overstate our case.
Thank you, Kendall, for your clear statement.
Well said, Canon Harmon!
Don: “not fit to live” is hardly just an “overstatement.”
As I wrote on my blog, a good man steps up. Thank you.
It is just an awful quote from Nigeria. Thank goodness for the clear words above.
Yesterday I posted this over at Jakes Place (a site i rarely comment on) where much is being made of these remarks.
[blockquote] Bp +Orama’s comments are repulsive and shock the conscience. I condemn them unreservedly. The only thing that is satanic here is whatever could impel a servant of God to make such remarks about any of God’s children.
ICXC NIKA
John[/blockquote]
I stand by the above comment.
Thank you, Kendall — a voice of reason and concern.
[i]These words are to be utterly repudiated by all of us–I hope and trust–KSH.[/i]
Hmmm. All I can say to this is it is true that actions speak louder than words.
Good for you, Canon Harmon.
This is much needed.
The “not fit to live” part is really beyond the pale. The “satanic” bit is a little disturbing, but from a certain perspective all willful sinfulness is satanic. Jesus saying “get behind me, Satan” might be a template for that.
It also may be that his command of English is not great. There certainly are indications of that in his statements; “it is scaring”? If he meant that these people don’t deserve to live (well who of us trully does?), then he should repent of his words and probably step down. If he meant that their manner of life is unfit to be lived (a proper orthodox position), then the outcry at his miscommunication should compel him to apologize for his poor wording and clarify himself immediately.
I would like to think the best of him until forced otherwise.
perhaps some gracious reappraisers could similarily rebuke Jim Naughton for his “homophobe” characterization of anyone and everyone who has left ECUSA?
Thank you, Dr. Harmon.
Kendall, I could not have said it better. I agree with you entirely.
Irenaeus (& others):
I was thinking of asking the web-elves to remove my post as there is little means to bring clarity to what must needs be the charitable position in whatever borderline debate is worth pursuing. We need a book. Please note that I did not, nor will I, criticize Cannon Harmon’s statement. I just wish to remind us that there are ways to actually love the homosexual and then there are ways to make ourselves look good and cause even more harm and confusion to those who are lost. If I had the means, I would use all the right words and map the charitable position that would bring life to those who are all alone in the valley of death. I doubt that I could do it in a book and I know that I can’t accomplish it here.
If you can forgive those who encourage others to sin then I have hope that you can forgive me for doing a poor job of encouraging people not to sin. Perhaps, also, we could consider forgiving a bishop in Africa who has a problem, evidently, similar to my own.
I made reference to this comment in another post here at T19 at about 8:30 this morning, asking for a response, and was dismayed to see it utterly ignored. I am heartened to see such a hearty and articulate condemnation of these indefensible statements. Thanks very much, Kendall. The same should come from all corners of the Anglican world.
I pray God will help the Bishop see the error of his words and the hurt he has caused so many. If a person deserves death because of their sin, then I too stand condemned. But Christ died for the very sin that would condemn me. I pray I always have a merciful tongue and never forget my offenses against God or my fellow man.
I agree. The bishop’s comments are revolting and anti-Christian.
They do not reflect reasserter sentiment and belief, and I’m afraid it’s just another quotation that will be used to encapsulate us and our side. And I agree with #17 — the “other side” reaches to hyperbolic heights and never apologizes, disavows, or retracts.
This is another example of why some of us who can’t stay with TEC aren’t excited about the GS prospects, either.
Thank you Kendall+. I can’t imagine that anyone can condone this sort of language or the thought lying beneath the language. Simply asking the question, would the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls speak thusly brings forth a simple and clear answer.
Well said, Canon Harmon–and thank you.
Just adding my voice of support for Canon Harmon’s appropriate, timely and clear response. Amen. jak+
I am beginning to wonder if the story is true. I have searched
All Africa.com which is a very extensive news site. I have been unable to find any reference to Bishop Orama giving an interview or any remarks attributed to him. The religious reporting in Africa is much more extensive and detailed than what we are used to in the US. I believe if the Bishop had said these things it would be big news.
I have also been trying to find other interviews or statements by the Bishop to see if similar sentiments have ever been expressed. It is important to note that the News Agency of Nigeria is gov’t owned. I take anything coming from a gov’t owned news source with a grain of salt.
The quote, if accurate and in context, is reprehensible. No one but God has the judgement of who is fit to live….
Bishop Orama has been asked to explain. Would like to wait for his reaction.
Thank you, thank you, Kendall.
Thank you, Canon Harmon, for such a clear repudiation of vile speech. May God have mercy on us all.
I too agree with Canon Harmon. If the Bishop said what he has been quoted as saying it was over the top and there should be some form of discipline.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them. Lev. 20:13
I am a moderate. I also repudiate the bishop’s words. But is what the he said all that much worse than what Leviticus says? What if he said “abominable and not fit to live?” Is that better?
How can we revere these words above as the Word of God and then condemn the bishop as it seems we all want to?
Sorry, folks, this struggling ‘piskie just doesn’t get it.
I agree that the bishops words (as quoted) are evil and vile. He has pushed beyond the boundries of common sense and Christian brotherhood. He needs to repent.
Chris(#17) – This is not about Jim Naughton and his speech or about any other speech. It is about Bishop Orama and what he said. As you may have noted, everyone here has distanced themselves from those words and condemned them (with the possible exception of Sidney #32). We can debate or discuss the differences between reappraisers and reasserters and how they handle their supporters who speak out or act out in less than Christian ways on another thread.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
This is a pretty serious thread, so please forgive the injection of a little humor: maybe we should start calling him Bishop Osama.
Phillip, the problem is that conservatives (both theological and political) come down hard on their own – ask Trent Lott, Mark Foley and Bob Packwood on the political side and look no further than this thread for the theological side.
Now by comparison what happens to Barney Frank (boyfriend was running a prositution ring out their home), Ted Kennedy (Chappaquidick), Bill Clinton (Lewinsky) on the political side and comments like Naughton’s (and MANY others) on the theological side? A lot of explain it away, blame evil conservatives claptrap is what happens.
I guess it’s just too much for me (or anyone else) to expect liberals to ever reciprocate……
and of course I forgot to add to the list the soon to be ex Sen. from Idaho, Larry Craig – taken down by his own party….
Thank you, Dr. Harmon for not mincing words and voicing clearly what so many of us feel.
Thanks for taking a stand Kendall+. Let’s hope we hear from +Orama’s Archbishop with a similar condemnation
His remark, regardless of the context, is a very un-Christian statement. We should pray for Bishop Orama, and feel shame that many of us have at one time or another harbored similar hostile thoughts toward homosexual persons.
He must be one of the newly consecrated bishops also. He was originally in the Diocese of Niger Delta-North and is still listed as being in that Diocese on the Church of Nigeria Website.
I think that everyone pretty much condemns the words. Perhaps it would be good to await a statement from the Church of Nigeria and/or Bishop Orama before finding him guilty by press?
Thank you, Kendall; you have put the matter very well. I hope that we will hear a public statement of pastoral advice from his own Primate.
KSH – I was not surprised that it was you who first spoke up and spoke out about this matter. Thanks for speaking up and out.
You are right, Kendall, that Bishop Orama’s remark fails the standard of pastoral care set by Dromantine. However, the Bible does make it clear that we all deserve death because of our rebellion.
Thank you, Kendall. Count me among those who heartily agree.
The right Christian approach to the issue, or to any other sin, is stated nicely in the Morning Prayer absolution. God is the one “who desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness and live.” If this bishop actually said what he is quoted as saying, he himself needs to pray, repent, and state publicly, and soon, his retraction of the implied violence in calling these particular sinners unworthy to live.
Thanks, Kendall. Add our voices to yours.
I agree also.
Thanks, Kendall.
Amen, and praise the Lord for your witness, Kendall.
Wyhat Kendall said is true enough but you are all making a mountain out of a molehill. Extreme positions are common enough, and this one is as common as the others. Will others listen to him? Of course. Will this position make any real difference in the Anglican Communion in either the long or the short run? No, precisely because it is too extreme.
It is too easy to score points for right thinkiing when one runs across this sort of extreme and it is unwise, always unwise, to give such positions print room, because that is exactly what they are aimed at. By all means, say, ” This is wholly unChristian,” and the blot him out. You can’t make people like this disappear or eat their words; the world isn’t set up that way.
Isn’t anyone about to step up and say, “We forgive him, for he is a sinner?” (He said sarcastically). Larry
This is not an “extreme” position, it is a [b]wrong[/b] position. Killing persons who experience, and even act upon, same-sex erotic attractions, is not a extension of the reasserter argument, but a perversion of it.
As for the question in #32 above, the Old Testament punishments for various sins can reasonably be ameliorated without denying the sinfulness of the behavior in question.
The Nigerian quote is a sure sign of what you’re in for in the USA if you continue down the road to becoming an African church: rabid calls for scapegoating and persecution of a minority. Haven’t you learnt from history? It’s not Jesus’ message of inclusion of all, is it? I wonder what it takes to convince you neo-cons that the gay-excluding church is dangerous and unChristian. Do we need some deaths before you’ll believe us?
#46 Amen!
Everything that the bishop said is correct. Everything. We’re just not to end the life of those who deserve it as individuals nor, except for a few cases (murder, treason, etc.) should the state.
Due to the fall we’re all, save for the grace of God, insane [not in our right minds], satanic [following the Prince of Darkness], and not fit to live [deserving of death]. It may not be very pastoral, but it is the truth in light of our sin.
A little fire-and-brimstone, while alien to the ears of most moderns, is not automatically a bad thing.
Many are now feeling very self-righteous in their indignation against the Africans. Absolutely screeching over Bishop Orama’s remark about homosexual acts: “It is scaring that any one should be involved in a thing like that and I want to say that they will not escape the wrath of God.” He went on to say, “Homosexuality and lesbianism are inhuman. Those who practice them are insane, satanic and are not fit to live because they are rebels to God’s purpose for man.”
Strange, I’ve been saying that homosexual acts reflect a kind on insanity for years. Insanity is denying the reality of the binary order of creation. I also think that when we do this we are playing on Satan’s team because we are in rebellion against the order that the Sovereign God has deemed best for us. Then there is the biblical teaching that those who rebel against God will die. Then comes the Good News, those who repent will receive forgiveness, life, and grace to live a righteous life in accordance with God’s plan.
Thank you Kendall for your swift condemnation fo Bp Orama’s words. As one who is termed a ‘reappraiser’ on this site I am grateful to you for your words. But I am puzzeled – or at least I was until I read Drew’s comment (#55). I truly do not wish to be offensive, but isn’t the God you ‘reasserters’ worship ultimately a kind of Bishop Orama writ large? Do you as ‘reasserters’ not belive that if homosexuals do not ‘repent’ and ‘reorder’ their lives to what is God’s ‘true’ will for them as humans then their ultimate end is death? Bp Orama’s sin isn’t so much in what he said (as Drew points out) but in anticipating the judgement that alone belongs to God, a judgement God will surely make in respect of unrepentant sexually active homosexuals who die before receiving the grace of divine forgiveness. That judgement is that they will not have life with Him. Why do you condemn Bp Orama so resolutely but believe it’s not a problem theologically when God actually executes the sentence of death? You may not like Bp Orama’s words but I would hold that, despite all the words of condemnation in most of the postings above, ‘reasserters’ are at least guilty of theological violence against homosexuals in perpetrating this image of God in relation to homosexuals. We won’t put you to death but our God will! Can somebody please explain if I have the wrong end of the stick?
Well said, Kendall.
I am dismayed by this bishop’s condemnation of gays and lesbians. My mouth actually went dry when I read the quote. Thank you for posting it and leaving comments open so that all can weigh in.
Whew!~ That’ll teach me to take a few days away from the most important Blog in Christendom.
The Rev. Dr. Harmon is, as usual entirely correct.
For the record, I want to make it clear that I personally and publicly abhor and reject ++Orama’s comments. His position has NO place in the arguments for orthodoxy and are even more anti-Scriptural as arguments that imply same sex activity is not sinful. His attitude demonstrates clearly that he is not fit for his position.
IN addition, attitudes like his paint the Godly orthodox with a broad brush that is undeserved. He should be removed from his position immediately as a “pole holder” in the Big Tent of Anglicanism.
And yes, I do believe such public statements to indeed be a really big deal and deleterious to our cause of orthodoxy.
KTF!….mrb
“Isn’t the God you ‘reasserters’ worship ultimately a kind of Bishop Orama writ large?”
AlanInLondon [#59]: God is not a single-issue Judge, and in his eyes every one of us has plenty to account for.
The Dromantine standard for pastoral care is not a statement of doctrine. Don’t elevate it to such.
I am more likely to be shot in the USA for speaking against homosexual acts than an African is to be killed for being homosexual.
“Sober†is one of the words used in describing the qualities required of ordained leaders. The radically intemperated remarks of this bishop, if accurate, should disqualify him from office or place him under some kind of rehabilitative discipline.
BTW, Alice (#65) lost her livelihood and was subjected to all kinds of real, verifiable indignities and deprivations simply for holding to the vows and beliefs under which she was ordained. Intemperated actions like lawsuits, depositions and active discrimination as practiced by TEC are evil, too.
“Oh God, I thank you that I am not like other men/women”.
Especially this poor bishop in Africa.
Shame on all of you!
Especially to the “reappraisers” writing here, “mote and beams”…
Gloria
Well, here we have the reasserters falling over ourselves to gain distance from an African bishops remarks, while the reappraiser’s fall over themselves to manipulate and exploit it to advance their political agenda. Proving, once again, that two men nor two women ever did anything in bed as twisted as the homosexualist ideology.
Thank you, Canon Harmon, for a strong, non-ambiguous stmt. This “reappraiser” is also at least somewhat heartened by the tone of [i]most[/i] of the comments (a bare handful aside).
I am more likely to be shot in the USA for speaking against homosexual acts than an African is to be killed for being homosexual.
I find this statement to be baseless and quite offensive.
43. RalphM wrote: “Perhaps it would be good to await a statement from the Church of Nigeria and/or Bishop Orama before finding him guilty by press?”
My sentiments exactly. A little less jockeying to get on the right side of a UPI story and a little more concern for getting to the bottom of what was said and the context in which it was said. You know, Christian charity. After that grace given, let what was said be roundly rebuked…or possibly defended, in the light of the truth. Can we, for Jesus’ sake, at least leave the door cracked while we’re waiting for confirmation or repudiation of the alleged words of a bishop of the church?
I would hold that, despite all the words of condemnation in most of the postings above, ‘reasserters’ are at least guilty of theological violence against homosexuals in perpetrating this image of God in relation to homosexuals. We won’t put you to death but our God will! Can somebody please explain if I have the wrong end of the stick?
I don’t think any of us can pretend to know what God will or won’t do with an individual human soul. We know what we are asked to do in following Christ. We know the many ways we fall short. And we know that our God is a God of great mercy and love. Our hope rests there.
Irenaeus – You write, “God is not a single-issue Judge, and in his eyes every one of us has plenty to account for.” I agree wholeheartedly – tho it seems v different when one reads most of the postings on this blog! (And who is saying Bp Orama is a ‘single-issue judge’? I bet he has all sorts of interesting views on all sorts of topics – tho I dread to hear them.) But your response does not address the point I was making – see #59 if you care to read my posting again. Do you as ‘reasserters’ not believe that if homosexuals do not ‘repent’ and ‘reorder’ their lives to what is God’s ‘true’ will for them as humans then their ultimate end is death? Why do you condemn Bp Orama so resolutely but believe it’s not a problem theologically when God actually executes the sentence of death? Why is it distasteful when a Bishop gets carried away and says it, and not distasteful when we hold that God will do it?
#68 – I would change your id from ‘Words Matter’ because it is clear that words do not matter to you as you are unable to recognise plain viciousness – even when it is spoken by a Bishop. I supose if Bp Orama actually turned his words into actions that too would be another example of ‘homosexualist ideology’ if we drew attention to it?
Fr. Jake, you may be too easily offended.
I do not condone the harshness of Bishop Orama’s remark, which we are probably taking too literally. He is young and a new bishop. He is probably unaware of how his words sound to us in the liberal West. And the media will certainly play this for all its worth! I do believe that Bishop Orama’s view is more biblical than TEC’s version of Christianity. There can be no Good News for those who deny their sinfulness, regardless of what particular expression that sinfulness may take.
“I am more likely to be shot in the USA for speaking against homosexual acts than an African is to be killed for being homosexual.”
That’s a very ignorant statement, Alice. Is this what your Eastern Orthodox tradition teaches you?
I see no reason to assume the quote attributed to the bishop is accurate. Before we all call for his head, shouldn’t its accuracy be verified? Even if it is what he said, I personally find it far less offensive than the things said by +Pike, +Spong, and others of their ilk within TEC
I am indeed ignorant about many things, but I am not ignorant about what the Bible teaches as Truth and I will not be deined my legal right to affirm my Christian Faith.
#65 – Alice – When in the history of the US has anyone been shot for speaking out against gays? Frankly, you are not someone who would even command a bullet. Not even Fred Phelps, with his gospel of hatred and vile homophobic protests, has ever been shot at. Yet, gays and lesbians in parts of Africa risk their very lives by gathering together and being labelled as “unfit to live” by the likes or Orama. Please get some realistic perspective here.
RE: “Do you as ‘reasserters’ not believe that if homosexuals do not ‘repent’ and ‘reorder’ their lives to what is God’s ‘true’ will for them as humans then their ultimate end is death?”
Huh? Reasserters believe that the ultimate end of all sinners is quite dire unless they have put their faith and trust in Christ’s death and resurrection.
Although of course any of us may wonder if someone has indeed put their faith and trust in Christ’s death and resurrection if they are at the same time remaining in flagrant sin, yet that is not a judgement that we can make and it is certainly possible. I for one believe that child molesters — if they have put their faith and trust in Christ’s death and resurrection — will be with Christ in paradise, so I’m unsure why other sinners would be any different.
In the old days I would have thought that Episcopalians knew this — but over the past four years I’ve realized differently.
Two gospels. One organization. Unsurprising that many don’t know the basic plan of salvation I suppose.
Back on topic — because your question is not at all Kendall’s topic — I’m glad Kendall has spoken as he is. Good work, Kendall!
I see that I’m going to have to edit my “bare handful” comment above to “handful” now :/
But I still appreciate Canon Harmon’s orig stmt…
alaninlondon,
Perhaps if you read my first post rather than prove the point of my second, you would see that words do indeed matter a great deal. I repeat, so same-sex act was ever so perverted as homosexualist ideology.
For example, to take your question to Irenaus: of course, all who die in their sins will recieve the just reward of their sins, the glutton, the thief and the fornicator (heterosexual or homosexual). You have a thread of reasserters (including myself) decrying Bp. Orama’s remarks (the part about death, not the rest); You know that western Christians do not support the death penalty for persons engaging in homosexual acts. Yet, you and your fellow travelors manipulate and exploit the situation for your own twisted ends.
And Alice, if they are not stopped, you will be denied your legal right to speak the truth. It’s already underway in Sweden, England, and Canada. That’s why Nigeria’s “anti-gay” (actually anti-homosexualist advocacy) legislation was necessary.
Alice – No one is denying your right to say anything. But if you’re going to make ignorant statements like you have about being shot, expect to be challenged. And you might not believe, but there are some of us out here who are also Bible-believing Christians who don’t believe exactly the way you do. Unfortunately, your absolutism leads you to believe you have the only Truth. I wonder if Jesus would agree with that.
Alice is not far off. Shot, not likely, but I stood by the bedside of a young man who was dieing a very cruel death because of an action of a single homosexual. In Madison, Wisconsin, there have been sanctuaries desecrated and sacked.
I know of many who have died as a result of homosexual activity. I know of no homosexual that has died as a result of christian activity.
53. Words Matter wrote:
As for the question in #32 above, the Old Testament punishments for various sins can reasonably be ameliorated without denying the sinfulness of the behavior in question.
Thanks. Yes, I’ve heard that. And no, it doesn’t seem particularly logical to me. If scripture is authoritative on the sin, then it seems as though it ought to be authoritative on the punishment also.
Jeepers. There’s no question that I’m with Canon Harmon on this one. It hurts to hear people say stuff like this. The fact that, with a good deal of tap dancing, one can argue that there is something to the good bishop’s words as stated, is frankly immaterial and the attempt unhelpful. It may be that Bishop Orama can clarify what he meant. I’d leave it up to him and the Nigerian Church.
The painfully obvious fact is that you don’t have to hate people to disagree with them. I don’t think I’m overstating if I say that, with regard to the appropriateness of declaring God’s blessings on homosexual imitations of marriage, we reasserters disagree (and that quite strongly) with the avatars of the homosexual movement, including those amongst their number who count themselves as homosexual. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we hate them. I would think that fact sufficiently obvious as to not need stating. Apparently, it’s not and statements like that ascribed to the bishop, obviously, don’t help.
I guess I’m like #59/73 in reverse. I’ve honestly never understood the reappraiser claim that disagreement with homosexuals somehow does violence to them. Like Sarah in #80, I find myself saying “Huh?” I do in fact worship a God who reveals that He is going to condemn some (I’d like to see it be none, but that’s not up to me) people to hell – and that number may well include those who unrepentantly indulge homosexual appetites (I’d sure like it to be otherwise, but again, well, it’s not up to me). I don’t see how that puts Him in the same category as Bishop Orama – or anybody else in this conversation, for that matter. I’ve never been particularly comfortable with Him being who He reveals Himself to be, and I’m sure that if I were designing a god, I’d come up with a very different one. But I don’t think that’s my job either.
Isn’t it obvious that we can disagree and still be forebearing? Isn’t it also obvious that being such does not necessarily mean that we are in full communion with one another? One of the chief differences between reasserters and reappraisers seems to be that reasserters understand that there are differences that make a difference. Which means that they need to be more rather than less careful what they say and how they say it.
AlanInLondon [#73]: The New Testament teaches that we are all guilty of sin and would face death but for the grace God has freely bestowed through Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the whole world. You seem to take this general proposition and turn it into some special condemnation of practicing homosexuals. None of us can consider ourselves righteous; as Jesus and Paul make clear, we are all guilty of a multitude of sins in thought, word, and deed. Any Christian who prides himself that he is “not like these homosexuals†dishonors Christ.
As for repentance, many (perhaps most) of us will die with sins for which we have not repented. We can only trust in God’s mercy and goodness.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Sidney [#86]: You seem to be serving up the rancid old Shellfish Argument. Jesus and Paul made abundantly clear that the gospel in many ways supersedes the Mosaic Law. Christians have understood this basic point for more than 1900 years, even though they have differed over what is superseded.
alaninlondon
I think from the way the thread seems to be degenerating you are getting to see the real feelings of many reasserters.
BTW, Alice (#65) lost her livelihood and was subjected to all kinds of real, verifiable indignities and deprivations simply for holding to the vows and beliefs under which she was ordained.
Alice renounced her calling and now no longer believes in women’s ordination.
And Alice, if they are not stopped, you will be denied your legal right to speak the truth. It’s already underway in Sweden, England, and Canada. That’s why Nigeria’s “anti-gay†(actually anti-homosexualist advocacy) legislation was necessary.
The irony of this statement is that the failed Nigerian legislation WAS about denying legal rights to speak ‘the truth.’
I see no reason to assume the quote attributed to the bishop is accurate.
This is a quote from the UPI which is well respected and has been around for 100+ years.
Do you as ‘reasserters’ not believe that if homosexuals do not ‘repent’ and ‘reorder’ their lives to what is God’s ‘true’ will for them as humans then their ultimate end is death? Why do you condemn Bp Orama so resolutely but believe it’s not a problem theologically when God actually executes the sentence of death?
I’m not a reasserter (but I play one on TV;)), but I think the distinction here is between spiritual death and temporal death. +Orama seems to be saying that homosexuals do not have the right to exist. God lets us all make choices, but does not generally kill us for making the ‘wrong’ one.
Although of course any of us may wonder if someone has indeed put their faith and trust in Christ’s death and resurrection if they are at the same time remaining in flagrant sin, yet that is not a judgement that we can make and it is certainly possible.
It’s the old Catch-22: You need Faith, Faith is measured by actions/change, so people say you don’t have ‘True’ Faith. It’s the problem with the Gospel that reasserters preach. When you start witgh the premise that God hates you (my word choice here). you are bound to end up poorly.
I know of many who have died as a result of homosexual activity. I know of no homosexual that has died as a result of christian activity.
Geez. You’re comparing exactly what here?
Thanks. Yes, I’ve heard that. And no, it doesn’t seem particularly logical to me. If scripture is authoritative on the sin, then it seems as though it ought to be authoritative on the punishment also
Scriptural apologists usually make the distinction between ceremonial laws and moral laws. The moral laws stay in effect. In this case, the moral law would be in effect but the punsihment would be specific to Israel at that time period.
Isn’t it obvious that we can disagree and still be forebearing?
It is obvious to the majority of us, but some (++Akinola, +Orama, Words matter) will try to restrict people because of the sin. They may indeed not hate them, but the inevitable outcome is a form of repression that has more than just emotional implications.
#89 that is wrong about Alice. She eventually renounced her orders, but hassles and restrictions on her ministry began well before that.
And even if I’d been wrong, the fact is that orthodox clergy and lay people can report all kinds of discrimination when it comes to seminary entrance, ordination, diocesan appointments, employment…all kinds of real actions with real, harmful consequences.
Look, you have reasserters here admitting that the Nigerian bishop’s comments were harmful and worthy of disciplinary action. The core problem among reappraisers is that you believe your own press releases. You use all the language of peace, love and justice and really believe that you are peaceful, loving and just beyond question. That’s why you’ve done so much harm to the church (and why, despite every bit of evidence, you think all is well).
Has anyone else noticed this gem from page 2 of the Globe article?
[blockquote]“God cannot be mocked,†said Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi of Kenya. “Here, in the context of Kenya, if we take somebody who is polygamous and we make him a lay reader or a priest, we would be doing the wrong thing.[/blockquote]
Time for all the reappraisers who trot out the slander about African polygamous bishops to issue a retraction. …
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Yeah, I thought so. Accountability, like “dialogueâ€, is a one-way street with reappraisers.
#85 — Call your local Gay and Lesbian Center and ask to speak to one of the volunteers on their suicide hotline. Watch the documentary “For The Bible Tells Me So” which includes the painful witness of a mother whose rejection of her lesbian daughter due to her narrow reading of scripture drove her daughter to take her own life. Come to L.A. and I’ll take you to West Hollywood where “throw away” queer teenagers live on the streets because their “christian” parents disowned them. In truth, no homosexuals have died of “christian” activity — but plenty have been the victims of the Christian Gospel being twisted into a tool of bigotry and discrimination.
Oh dear, reading all these comments, it is scary how homophobia is so well in the US. Here in Europe we have gay marriage (even in Catholic Spain it has 70% public approval) and other equal rights for gays precisely because of the dreadful history of Christian anti-Semitism and what it led to. Christians here used to say “it’s not who they are, it’s what they do that’s evil” about the Jews in the 19th c. Try substituting the word “Jew” for “Gay” in the anti-gay comments above: how does that sound to Americans, and why?
93. Susan Russell:
I do know one of those “throw away sons”. I recently got another email from him. In it, he celebrates the freedom from what he used to be and all that God has done for him. He celebrates the family that he now has. He celebrates a supportive church congregation.
Sin does not have to destroy us. There is hope. There is freedom.
What I really don’t understand are the young people who are in the throws of panic over their sexual orientation. I didn’t even know I had an orientation until I was well into my teens. Looking back, I see how I could easily have been steered into who-knows-what kind of perversions. Fortunately, I had example and I had a good church and I did not have a school that felt compelled to push young people into nihilism. In other words, I had a purpose given to me by God. You are right to consider that the blood of those hopeless young people who call the suicide hotline is on someone’s hands. We just disagree with whose hands their blood is on. My most solemn thought is that God has an opinion and I best be obedient to Him.
Anyone read the Gallop Poll on American attitudes toward homosexuals? Given the tide, speaking against homosexual acts isn’t wise. Now compare the reality of liberal America to most African societies, still very traditional, even in the cities. One aspect of traditional African society is that things are handled within the family, clan and community. There are suprizingly few cases of homosexual acts and even those few cases do not automatically result in a person’s death. Clans are less likely to put their own to death than impersonal western societies are to use capital punishment. This is why I made the remark about it being more likely that I would be shot in the USA for speaking against homosexual acts than for a homosexual to be killed in Africa.
Giddy? Well, as serious as my life has been for the last little while, giddy would be a nice change. But no, my post was hurried.
And yes, I do consider the Nigerian legislation to have been a necessity. Yes, of course, it suppresses certain forms of speech, which are inherently evil and destructive. That is not different that what the reappraisers (yes, not all reappraisers) consider historic Christianity. Hence the hate speech laws infecting various western societies.
Some examples of the demented thinking that homosexualist ideology spawns: Susan Russell definitively blames Christians for the deaths of depressed homosexually oriented persons, when it could equally be blamed on their disordered homosexual psyches. Promoting self-pity (a dominant characteristic of the “gay” community) Consider Brian’s callous dismissal of the hateful treatment Alice has received for her act of conscience. Consider that this thread was basically a series of statements by reasserters decrying Bp. Osama’s statement until reappraisers drove the wedge in and picked a fight. We can not tolerate them, since they will not tolerate us. It’s that simple.
I realize that the homosexualists here completely disagree with me, and that’s fine. I am your polical enemy, ready to fight tooth and toenail against the spread of this disease. You are free to do the same.
Words Matter,
I agree. This could have been a thread for much common ground, instead it has been made into another battlefield. Pity.
I am not a Bob Jonesian Fundamentalist (far from it), but the late Bob Jones had a great quote about neo-evangelicalism that went something like neo-evangelicalism saying, “I’ll say you’re orthodox if you say I’m respectable.”
Methinks that’s some of what’s going on in the rush to condemn this quote.
I don’t accept the quote in toto but I also do not feel compelled to apologetically distance myself from it in such haste.
Look at all the posturing, malice, venom, and fingerpointing that this ridiculous posting has caused. Kendall gives a loudmouth and a extremist an opportunity to place his soapbox. To what end? Does anyone here really believe that homosexuals should be hanged (or stoned)? Sure it’s a sin except to the homophiles. But what is all the fuss about? This is the right wing equivalent to Spong. He will always finds buddies. It is an old saying, that a dog that will fetch a bone will carry one, so the man will find transmitters. ARe you surprised? Why are you wasting you time? This doesn’t deserve one inch of press space and Kendall’s denunciation is overkill by a quantum factor.
Um and well. And is there not someone who is saying in print here something about forgiving our brother severnty times seven, and that Christ has so advised us? (He said sarcastically again.) Larry
I disagree with a number of the comments above about the worthiness of Kendall’s post.
It’s really not important what revisionists think of us. What’s important is to do the right thing, and Kendall, when he saw something that is clearly heretical, did exactly the right thing.
Of course, revisionists are going to be infuriated by anything at all that we say, no matter what, other than “yes, massah, you da boss” . . . and that’s not really important.
If there were no revisionists who ever came to this blog at all, it was right for him to state that the statement that purports to be a quote by Bishop Orama is false and heretical. And certainly the fact that revisionists are doing their usual is really no concern of his, and basically unimportant.
You don’t denounce the statement because revisionists might approve of you — they won’t and who cares — you denounce the statement when you believe it to be false.
“You denounce the statement when you believe it to be false.” Amen, Sister Sarah, and sometimes, you’ll take a beating for doing so. But then, ‘grace changes us, and change is painful’, isn’t it? Some old cantankerous southern belle said that, I think. Wish I’d said it myself.
A Revisionist idiot,
Clark
[i] Comment deleted by elf. Off topic of original thread. [/i]
Mr. Thompson,
Of course, in a civil society we ought to tolerate one another and, on a practical basis, we do. Most reasserters here have “openly gay” friends. I spent a portion of this evening doing a favor for one of mine. But experience suggests that when homosexualist ideology is promulgated, free speech suffers. As I said before: [i]We can not tolerate them, since they will not tolerate us.[/i] In any case, all speech is not protected, nor should it be. Beyond the classic “fire in a crowded theater”, there’s slander and defamation of character and probably some more.
You have to know that I am a fairly recent convert away from “tolerance”, when I began to hear the demands for acceptance and affirmation, followed by the various attempts to silence opposition. The direction is clear. I’m glad you aren’t of that sort, but that sort is gaining a foothold in western society.
There is a huge amount of fear on this comment site: using ridiclous terms like “homosexualists” for example, as if we’re about to take over the world! It’s not a zero sum game: being tolerant to gay people does not lessen straight people in any way, it is merely a recognition of human dignity and diversity, exactly as the US has modelled with regard to ethnic minorities. Why are so many of you so scared that you are unable to empathise with your threatened gay brother or sister? Trying to doll it up as if there were an intellectual argument to be made here seems bizarre from a European intellectual perspective. Gay people exist. They are produced by straight couples. Get your head round it, conservative America, and don’t claim to be intellectualising calls for gay genocide.
If I were the elves I’d delete that comment from Brian too.
This thread is Kendall’s statement about another statement.
It’s not about the politically grandstanding statements of a gay activist organization. They should get their own well-trafficed blog if they want people to read their stuff.
Why don’t I start advertising my products over here in the threads too, since Brian’s got to use a reasserting blog in order to promote revisionist’s statements.
[blockquote]It’s really not important what revisionists think of us. What’s important is to do the right thing, and Kendall, when he saw something that is clearly heretical, did exactly the right thing.[/blockquote]
Amen!
#100, Larry, it is always best to bring things into the light where they can be examined more closely. Some question whether Bishop Orama’s statement was accurately reported or was the news story a plant to attempt to embarrass Archbishop Akinola and the Church of Nigeria. That is certainly worth further investigation. I believe that Bishop Orama probably said something close to what is quoted, but that his statement must be considered within the context of the realities of Nigerian society and his Niger Delta North origins. Homosexual acts are regarded as destructive to community, as are the offenses of adultery, fornication, stealing and rebellion against one’s parents. Bishops have an obligation to protect their communities and often say and do that rather harshly. Regard the extreme statements of some pro-gay TEC bishops, such as John Spong.
It’s not about the politically grandstanding statements of a gay activist organization.
Well Sarah, it looks like your political grandstanding wins out. My objection to being deleted is the reason. It is claimed that this is off-topic and the topic is, according to Kendall+:
I was very disgusted, upset and saddened to read the statement of Bishop Isaac Orama…
These words are to be utterly repudiated by all of us–I hope and trust–KSH
It’s a pretty clear topic. What I posted was a repudiation by a reappraising group actually working in Nigeria. The only distinction then is the Elf’s personal objection to the group. Feel free to censor whatever you want, just don’t claim it is off topic. Say something like:
Comment deleted by elf. I don’t like gay rights organizations
Then you are at least being genuine..
Now that last post was actually off-topic. My apologies.
The comments by Kendall and others against this Bishop might be jumping to conclusions as it could have been a journalistic error.
The condemnations need to be made with reservations in the event there was an error by a journalist.
Well, Kendall did say in his first line “if he is quoted accurately….” so we were all operating on the assumption that the quote was true.
If not, we’ll issue a Group Emily Latella…
“OH, well, that’s different……..never mind!”
KTF…mrb