Defying the authority of their bishop, parishioners and their priest from the closed St. Peter Catholic Church in downtown Cleveland celebrated Mass Sunday in leased commercial space they transformed into a church independent of the Cleveland Catholic Diocese.
The move by the new Community of St. Peter puts members in danger of excommunication because they had been warned by Bishop Richard Lennon, who shuttered St. Peter’s in April, not to hold worship services in places without his approval.
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Still, about 350 people, joined by their spiritual leader, the Rev. Robert Marrone, gathered for their first Mass and communion in their new home — a newly renovated, century-old building on Euclid Avenue and East 71st Street.
Hey, this is great! I wish more priests would have the moxie to do this. It is clear from this example that no Bishop or Church possesses the Holy Spirit. The curtain of the Temple was torn in two and the Spirit blows where it will and God’s people will respond with confident faith. Rebellion, yes but a holy one and freedom for God’s people from an oppressive institution looking at numbers instead of people.
Sad that the bishop doesn’t see the faith and endurance of this congregation as a gift to nurture. Instead, it appears he sees them as a challenge to his authority that must be stopped. I think that if Jesus questions anyone’s salvation it won’t be theirs, but the bishop’s.
[i]Group leaders emphasize that they see themselves as traditional Catholics and are challenging the closing of St. Peter’s, not the tenets of their faith. [/i]
Accept authority only as long as you agree with it. That doesn’t sound like anything “traditional Catholics” would do. If the good Bishop cries uncle and reopens their building..does that mean they’ll come home and behave?
I think you have precious little to go on before uttering judgements on the fate of souls, Lakeland Two. It is normal for dioceses to suppress parishes when the financial means aren’t there to support the parish. There are other places in the diocese where they can worship. Precious little fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum in this parish, I think.
From the article, “”We believe, as the bishop has repeatedly stated, that we as Catholics, not any particular church building, are the church” he said.” Really? Then why didn’t you join another parish in the diocese? Do those Catholics have the cooties? This is Pride, the father of all the sins, which naturally begets the others, such as…
[i]Rebellion, yes but a holy one and freedom for God’s people from an oppressive institution looking at numbers instead of people.[/i]
Was it holy to lie to the bishop and the diocese about their plans? Ends justify the means, eh? Because they definitely lied to his face. So much for a noble cause. May God have mercy on them.
Lakeland two – these folks proport to be Catholic, and as such are subject to the authority of their bishop. The bishop has given them a direct order, and they are not only defying him, but lied to him. You don’t get to pick and choose if you are under authority – and certainly that priest doesn’t get to make those calls. I’m sorry that their parish is supressed, but there are other Catholic churches where they can worship, and if they want to stay together, they can pick a place and go together. But right now this defiance and disobedience isn’t Spirit filled, it is an excommunicatable offense. We are a communitarian church – and the bishop has to look out for the greater community. They need to submit to the authority of the bishop and quit acting like ticked-off adolescents. It isn’t as if he is asking them to do something either illegal or immoral. It is a just order, and it is their moral responsibility as Catholics to respect their bishop and comply.
Next stop: Guyana!
TridentineVirginian and advocate make excellent points.
But I must bring up another point. The article describes them as “traditional” Catholics. That means something to those of us who self-identify as such. After viewing the corpus and other statues they’ve commissioned, as well as their song choice, I have very, very serious doubts that the label “traditional” is accurate.
What exactly makes them Catholic if they are in Communion with no one other than themselves? Just calling oneself Catholic does not necessarily make one so.
Exactly right, Archer. This is a wrong move and must be disciplined. The Bishop, I think, will have more patience but in the end, priest and parishoners will lose and must.
paradoxymoron – there is a difference between an illegal/immoral order, and one you simply don’t like. And if you are Catholic, the fact that you don’t agree with it is immaterial. If you don’t want to be Catholic you don’t have to be (as these folks have demonstrated), but if you are, and if you given a moral and legitimate order by your bishop, you are morally obligated to comply. I find your Guyana reference offensive.
I am not going to comment on the specifics of this situation. But I will say that I have heard from a couple of sources that this parish is far from from traditional. Apparently they have a reputation for pushing the envelope in matters of liturgy and preaching. In short I am told they are an extremely liberal/modernist parish.
In ICXC
John
It all comes down to authority.
Anglican clergy are under authority of their bishop, but by and large Anglican lay people are not. Anglican communicants can take guidance from their bishop or disagree with the bishop and even actively oppose his/her decisions with no violation of obediance because none is required under the Anglican Rule.
However, both Roman Catholic clergy and lay people are under the authority of their bishop. As many have commented you can’t be serious about being under authority only when you like the outcome. That’s why it’s called a discipline.
That being said, there are many, many parishes that would love 325 communicants in the ACNA or Episcopal Church, and that’s just who is left after the original 700 were displaced at the closure of St. Peters. It’s amazing how many Episcopal parishes get by with 60 people or so and have no risk of being shut down, yet 700 is apparently a number so low that it warrants closure of a beautiful 150 year old building.
BTW, I have a technical RC theology question based on the circumstances of this story. Aren’t these folks violating Canon law by consecrating the Host in an unconsecrated building?
Re # 13
Billqs,
[blockquote] Aren’t these folks violating Canon law by consecrating the Host in an unconsecrated building? [/blockquote]
No. Catholic priests can offer Mass almost anywhere. I have seen Mass offered in private homes, parking lots, and even a garage. It is however, a violation of canon law to offer Mass or perform any of the sacraments in a diocese w/o the blessing of the bishop. That doesn’t make the Mass invalid in RC eyes. But it might make the sacraments illicit and that would mean it is gravely sinful to assist at such a Mass.
In ICXC
John
Sinful by whose standards? Jesus or the Pope?
Stop trolling, revdons.
Re #15
Revdons,
[blockquote]Sinful by whose standards? Jesus or the Pope? [/blockquote]
From the RC perspective the Pope is Jesus’ Vicar and personal representative on Earth. The distinction is thus meaningless.
#12 –
[blockquote]That being said, there are many, many parishes that would love 325 communicants in the ACNA or Episcopal Church, and that’s just who is left after the original 700 were displaced at the closure of St. Peters. It’s amazing how many Episcopal parishes get by with 60 people or so and have no risk of being shut down, yet 700 is apparently a number so low that it warrants closure of a beautiful 150 year old building.[/blockquote]
I am probably mistaken, but I thought essentially the situation in TEC is that financial issues like upkeep of churches and other buildings aren’t currently a problem because, despite abysmal membership numbers, much of TEC still sits on piles and piles of money endowed to it back when it was larger and counted many rich and influential people in its ranks?
Forgive the back to back comments, but on a Catholic blog I frequent, this question was being discussed, and com-box poster said this, which I think is very astute:
[blockquote]My two Cents are, that the “modern†people unlearned to deal with ultimate authorities. They oppose everything that is given and not fruit
of their own thinking. At least they want to discuss everything and give it “a personal noteâ€. And of course “tempora mutantur et nos mutamur
in illis†so they can’t accept a magisterium with unchangable core-truths.
I know some folks, who would like to discuss if 1 plus 1 is really 2, but they hardly hold back with it because the others in the talk
aren’t as far as they in questioning every “out-dated†definitions and truths.
The sense that God is not on the same level as they is unbearable for them, so they (over)emphasize “Jesus, our brotherâ€
Thus the whole self-preparation for the mass is ruined by a wrong attitude. They really celebrate themself instead the
unbloody repeat of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately the history of the church in my area is full of disobedience of bishop to the authority of the Pope, so these people
are encouraged to stay in their attitude.[/blockquote]
Ad Orientem…The distinction is not meaningless to me and billions of Protestants around the world. In my opinion, all Christians represent Jesus to the world. He is our Lord. The Pope or any Bishop for that matter are simply fallible humans like you or me brought into God’s family through grace. The only difference b/t us and them is their burden of responsibility.
Billions?
Re # 20
Revdons,
The distinction is meaningless because we were not discussing Protestants but professed Roman Catholics. If you are going to claim to be Roman Catholic then it seems one aught to abide by the tenets of that faith. Obviously you do not agree with the doctrines of the Roman Church, which is why you are not a member. But that is neither here nor there with respect to the issue at hand, as these people are, or at least claim to be, Catholics.
In ICXC
John
Post Scriptum: For the record I left the Roman Church some years ago myself.
Re # 21
Tridentine Virginian,
According to the most recent numbers I was able to locate in a very quick search, there are a little over 2 billion people in the world who are generally described as Christians. Of those slightly over 1 billion (or about 1/2 of the total) are Catholics in communion with the Pope of Rome. Somewhere between 500 – 700 million belong to the myriad of Protestant denominations (including some quasi-Christian groups such as Mormons and Jehova’s Witnesses). The remainder (about 400+million) are Orthodox or non-Chalcedonian Orthodox.
In ICXC
John
TridentineVirginian
Billions…b/c we are not quite sure how many are in China. 🙂
Also I was taking a long term view of all the saints. 🙂
#4 – TridentineVirginian
First, there are some things that have come to light since we wrote our comments, and we understand that the parish has been heading down a rebellious path in other matters. Secondly, we understand that finances can determine whether a facility is feasible – though some support missions (in TEC any way) to reach into new territory/development. It would seem that the parish was able to come up with the money to support [i][b]a[/i][/b] building, so the question arises was the original church building really unsustainable or a way to shut the parish down. I get the authority of the bishop if he was trying to rout out error.
As to your comments about my salvation comment: I was paraphrasing the bishop who was quoted as saying:[blockquote]
“Please know that I will not approve of a priest celebrating the sacraments in any space other than an approved site within the diocese,” [b]the bishop wrote, adding that he was concerned ” [i]for you and your salvation.” [/i][/b]
“It is my hope and my prayer,” he continued, “that there is no attempt on the part of some to set up an alternative parish outside the jurisdiction of the Diocese of Cleveland.
“[i][b]When there is a breaking of unity and communion with the church, there are consequences which affect one’s relationship with the Lord. . . .” [/i][/b][/blockquote]
If the people were meeting to worship truly [i]traditionally[/i] and were able to come up with the money to do so, it seemed overly harsh. Neither of us is Catholic, though one of our mom’s and one of our step-mom’s family were. But we found it offensive that the bishop would make such a statement based on the story as written. Understanding now that there’s more to it, we can see how and why the bishop would say it.
We both understand that Catholic authority is different than Episcopal. It is because of the abuses that neither of us could never be a Catholic, and in some time in the future maybe not even be Episcopalians. We are very careful about who is granted spiritually authority over us because of the abuses of the Episcopal church, especially when it is the church itself that is in error and chooses to remain so.
Revdons- In #13 I specifically asked for a Roman Catholic opinion on my question concerning celebrating the sacrament in an unconsecrated building which Ad Orientem was happy to supply.
I believe the answer was given in a non-universal light. It was not a general condemnation of sinfulness for disobedience to the bishop, but rather an example of how a Roman Catholic would look at the issue.
As I said earlier, Anglican laypeople have no bounden duty of obedience to a bishop so the issue would really not apply in an Anglican setting.
#18- I just thought it was interesting to look at the difference in scale of members. In TEC a parish with 120 members can be considered vibrant, while 700 in an RC Church might be cause to close the doors for lack of attendance. (I realize this is an oversimplification, and reading between the lines there may well have been doctrinal reasons for the bishop to suppress St. Peter’s parish.)
Re # 28
billqs,
One major factor in parish closings for many RC dioceses is the chronic shortage of priests. A parish with an ASA of 700 would in many locals be quite small. Priests are spread very thin in the Roman Church.
You are however correct, that there is more to this than just numbers. Multiple sources have told me that this parish has a very liberal reputation and that a lot goes on there which would not meet with approval in Rome.